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Thread: Why do so many defend Job over God?

  1. #46
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    Re: Why do so many defend Job over God?

    Quote Originally Posted by rejoice44 View Post
    I didn't say that either. I said the words used to describe Noah were not the same as the words to describe Job. And I did not bring Noah up, you did.
    ok, so was either Noah or Job perfect?


    It doesn't say if you keep some of my commandments, it says all.
    It doesn't say "miss one and you may as well miss them all".



    This is exactly what Christ did, but you don't accept him, so you can't use this one.
    Um, why can't I take my words to God and ask him to forgive me?

    How much of a contrite spirit do you have if you reject the Son of God?
    I can't feel bad about sinning without accepting Jesus?

    So I can murder some one and sing a song and be forgiven?
    I dunno, can you murder someone and believe in Jesus and be forgiven?







    Whose mercy, and what is truth?
    ours?

    John 18:38 Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all.
    That's funny, neither can I.
    Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."

    Jeremiah 31:9

  2. #47

    Re: Why do so many defend Job over God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    And yet Job was "perfect". So was Noah for that matter. So maybe this verse isn't condemning all mankind who ever lived, but a specific generation. One who say the temple destroyed. Who might feel as though "all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags".

    It also says that to return a poor man's cloak makes a person "righteous".

    Not what it says.

    So basically every biblical character and every biblical story teaches the same lesson. How...boring.
    In reality they do teach the same thing. Paul said in 1 Cor 15 the first man is of flesh and the second man is of Spirit. The first man Adam was of flesh, this is the part we inherit from Adam, but that second man Adam the one who became like God to know the difference, Gen 3:22 was of Spirit. Adam was born again else he couldn’t have become like God in knowledge.

    This is Gods message throughout the bible that the change in people is the same when God is manifest in them. Abraham was one way then he was another, Moses was one way then he was another, Jesus in Matt 3:16 was one way then he was another, Paul, Peter, James, it is evident that something happened in all of these that their lives Changed. And we are no different from these at all. If one has not experienced that second man , and Jesus refers to that process as born again, then one has not had that change as these before us had.

  3. #48
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    Re: Why do so many defend Job over God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    ok, so was either Noah or Job perfect?
    Noah walked with God and was declared righteous, Job not only did not walk with God, Job did not know who God was or where to find him.

    It doesn't say "miss one and you may as well miss them all".
    No, it just says keep them all. What, do you believe if your good deeds out weigh your bad deeds on a scale, that you are alright?

    Um, why can't I take my words to God and ask him to forgive me?
    John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    You asked!

    I can't feel bad about sinning without accepting Jesus?
    Sure you can feel bad about, just doesn't mean your sins will be forgiven.

    I dunno, can you murder someone and believe in Jesus and be forgiven?
    David was forgiven, wasn't he?

    ours?
    That's funny, neither can I.
    Not sure what you mean here.

  4. #49
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    Re: Why do so many defend Job over God?

    Quote Originally Posted by GaryMac View Post
    In reality they do teach the same thing.
    Why can't different biblical narratives teach us different lessons? God only has one lesson to teach us?

    Why can't the book of Job teach us that human suffering is beyond our finite human comprehension?
    Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."

    Jeremiah 31:9

  5. #50
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    Re: Why do so many defend Job over God?

    Quote Originally Posted by rejoice44 View Post
    Noah walked with God and was declared righteous, Job not only did not walk with God, Job did not know who God was or where to find him.
    Was either Job or Noah perfect?



    No, it just says keep them all. What, do you believe if your good deeds out weigh your bad deeds on a scale, that you are alright?
    Why not?


    John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    You asked!
    Not in my bible, sorry. The verse in my bible says I can take my words to God. And I do so. Every single day.



    Sure you can feel bad about, just doesn't mean your sins will be forgiven.
    That's a point of your faith. Not a fact.



    David was forgiven, wasn't he?
    Does it say that David believed in Jesus?


    Not sure what you mean here.
    Jesus committed no biblical capital crime
    Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."

    Jeremiah 31:9

  6. #51
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    Re: Why do so many defend Job over God?

    Quote Originally Posted by rejoice44 View Post
    The problem is you can't have spiritual growth until you are born again.
    Tell that to Moses.
    Unhappy is he who mistakes the branch for the tree, the shadow for the substance.

  7. #52
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    Re: Why do so many defend Job over God?

    Quote Originally Posted by rejoice44 View Post
    Noah walked with God and was declared righteous, Job not only did not walk with God, Job did not know who God was or where to find him.
    Do you or I know where God is and where to find Him? Job knew as much as we know about where God was and where to find Him.

    That does not make one less of a saved person.
    His and Yours,

    Eyelog

    The secret things belong to the Lord our God,
    but the things
    revealed belong to us
    and to our sons forever,
    that we may observe all the words of this law.
    -- Deuteronomy 29:29

    Open my eyes, that I may behold
    Wonderful things from Your law.
    -- Psalm 119:18

  8. #53
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    Re: Why do so many defend Job over God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    Was either Job or Noah perfect?
    Please define your understanding of perfect.

    Why not?
    Because justice requires punishment for sin. God is just.

    Not in my bible, sorry. The verse in my bible says I can take my words to God. And I do so. Every single day.
    Jesus is the arm of God, the Rock of God, the bread of life, the living water, the tree of life, the high priest, the temple of God, the king of kings, and Lord of Lords. If you haven't met Jesus, you haven't met God.

    That's a point of your faith. Not a fact.
    You mean I can kill somebody and feel bad about it and it is OK?

    Does it say that David believed in Jesus?
    Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.

    Psalm 110:1 [A Psalm of David.] The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

    2 Samuel 22:3 The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence.

    Jesus committed no biblical capital crime
    Are you asking a question, or making a statement?

  9. #54
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    Re: Why do so many defend Job over God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eyelog View Post
    Do you or I know where God is and where to find Him? Job knew as much as we know about where God was and where to find Him.

    That does not make one less of a saved person.
    I know where God is, God dwells within me.

  10. #55
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    Re: Why do so many defend Job over God?

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    Tell that to Moses.
    Please explain.

  11. #56
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    Re: Why do so many defend Job over God?

    Quote Originally Posted by rejoice44 View Post
    Please define your understanding of perfect.
    Does the bible use the word "perfect" in describing either of them? Yes or no.



    Because justice requires punishment for sin. God is just.
    Your whole religion is based on God not punishing people for their sins. Why can't God say "your good deeds outweigh the bad. Forgiven"? Of course He can.


    Jesus is the arm of God, the Rock of God, the bread of life, the living water, the tree of life, the high priest, the temple of God, the king of kings, and Lord of Lords. If you haven't met Jesus, you haven't met God.
    According to you.



    You mean I can kill somebody and feel bad about it and it is OK?
    Why not? I can kill somebody and tell Jesus I feel bad, right?


    Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.

    Psalm 110:1 [A Psalm of David.] The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

    2 Samuel 22:3 The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence.
    I ask again: Does it say that David believed in Jesus?


    Are you asking a question, or making a statement?
    Statement.
    Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."

    Jeremiah 31:9

  12. #57
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    Re: Why do so many defend Job over God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    Your whole religion is based on God not punishing people for their sins. Why can't God say "your good deeds outweigh the bad. Forgiven"? Of course He can.
    Good point. For some reasons we Christians forget what forgiveness really means. Taken to mean "I will no longer hold your sins against you, God is free to use any criteria he chooses. He could say, "hey bring me some lupines and I will forgive you." That's his choice. It just so happens, however, that he is forgiving those who turn to him in repentance, confession, and accept that Jesus Christ is his son.

    I ask again: Does it say that David believed in Jesus?
    David believed in a coming one who would be the image of God and rule as king on earth. He didn't know his name I would imagine.

  13. #58
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    Re: Why do so many defend Job over God?

    Sometimes we must go through the crucible before we become who God wants us to be. Sometimes our trials testify to God's glory and become greater far than we ourselves will ever be.
    What was done to Job was done for God's glory which is what every believer lives for. God's glory. I do not believe that the scriptures are any great testament of Job but instead stand as a testament to God and His divine power, mercy and grace.
    The story of Job is also a testament, I think, towards our place in the grand scheme of things. We are the clay and God is the potter. We are shaped, each and every one of us, into the vessel He best decides should carry His grace and mercy.
    We have no say in the matter except to praise Him and give Him thanks for allowing us some small part.
    This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

  14. #59
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    Re: Why do so many defend Job over God?

    Quote Originally Posted by BroRog View Post
    It just so happens, however, that he is forgiving those who turn to him in repentance, confession, and accept that Jesus Christ is his son.
    According to Christians.

    David believed in a coming one who would be the image of God and rule as king on earth. He didn't know his name I would imagine.
    Heh. I get different answers on this subject.
    Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."

    Jeremiah 31:9

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    Re: Why do so many defend Job over God?

    Job Chapter 38

    1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said:
    2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
    3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto Me.
    4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare, if thou hast the understanding.
    5 Who determined the measures thereof, if thou knowest? Or who stretched the line upon it?
    6 Whereupon were the foundations thereof fastened? Or who laid the corner-stone thereof,
    7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
    8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it broke forth, and issued out of the womb;
    9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,
    10 And prescribed for it My decree, and set bars and doors,
    11 And said: 'Thus far shalt thou come, but no further; and here shall thy proud waves be stayed'?
    12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days began, and caused the dayspring to know its place;
    13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, and the wicked be shaken out of it?
    14 It is changed as clay under the seal; and they stand as a garment.
    15 But from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm is broken.
    16 Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? Or hast thou walked in the recesses of the deep?
    17 Have the gates of death been revealed unto thee? Or hast thou seen the gates of the shadow of death?
    18 Hast thou surveyed unto the breadths of the earth? Declare, if thou knowest it all.
    19 Where is the way to the dwelling of light, and as for darkness, where is the place thereof;
    20 That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof?
    21 Thou knowest it, for thou wast then born, and the number of thy days is great!
    22 Hast thou entered the treasuries of the snow, or hast thou seen the treasuries of the hail,
    23 Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?
    24 By what way is the light parted, or the east wind scattered upon the earth?
    25 Who hath cleft a channel for the waterflood, or a way for the lightning of the thunder;
    26 To cause it to rain on a land where no man is, on the wilderness, wherein there is no man;
    27 To satisfy the desolate and waste ground, and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth?
    28 Hath the rain a father? Or who hath begotten the drops of dew?
    29 Out of whose womb came the ice? And the hoar-frost of heaven, who hath gendered it?
    30 The waters are congealed like stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.
    31 Canst thou bind the chains of the Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?
    32 Canst thou lead forth the Mazzaroth in their season? Or canst thou guide the Bear with her sons?
    33 Knowest thou the ordinances of the heavens? Canst thou establish the dominion thereof in the earth?
    34 Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee?
    35 Canst thou send forth lightnings, that they may go, and say unto thee: 'Here we are'?
    36 Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? Or who hath given understanding to the mind?
    37 Who can number the clouds by wisdom? Or who can pour out the bottles of heaven,
    38 When the dust runneth into a mass, and the clods cleave fast together?
    39 Wilt thou hunt the prey for the lioness? Or satisfy the appetite of the young lions,
    40 When they couch in their dens, and abide in the covert to lie in wait?
    41 Who provideth for the raven his prey, {N}
    when his young ones cry unto God, and wander for lack of food?
    What's God really asking Job here?
    Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."

    Jeremiah 31:9

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