If Elihu was really standing in the place of God, as I believe he was, then you only need to read what Elihu said. Elihu said that Job had fulfilled the judgment of the wicked, and that judgment and justice had taken hold of Job.It wasn't without reason, but the reason was not as punishment for sin that Job had committed. The reason God allowed it was to test Job's integrity and to show Satan that he was wrong about Job and was wrong in his assumptions of what Job would do if he had things he cherished taken away and if he was afflicted physically. I believe God also allowed it in order to give Job a deeper understanding of who he (Job) was and who He (God) is and just how big of a gap there is between God and man.
Job was only perfect and upright until iniquity was found in him. God allowed Satan to shine a light on the iniquity when Job did not bless God after the second test.Though "there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil", Job still had a lot to learn and that is part of why God allowed his suffering despite the fact that there wasn't anything in particular he had done to deserve that suffering if it was intended to be punishment (it wasn't). Though he already knew that God could inflict even righteous men (not just wicked men) with calamity if He wanted (Job 2:10) his understanding of that concept was limited and God gave him a deeper understanding of it through his suffering. Though his suffering I believe Job learned that God's righteousness is far above even the most righteous man on earth, which Job was at the time (according to God Himself).
I believe you are too sensitive about the word punish. The meaning of punish is to inflict a penalty for offense, and isn't that what you do when correct a child?
I would suspect that his children were punished for their own sins, or it could have been that God just took them home to be with him, but I suspect the former. God knew Job's heart, and what would happen when he was tested. He knew that Job would not bless him at the end of the test. He knew that Job would curse the day he was born, and that he would charge God foolishly. God knew everything there was to know about Job.Also, you have God punishing (or correcting) Job for things he said before he even said them. How does that make sense? He lost his children, servants and livestock and had boils put on his body before he ever said the things that God chastised him about. So, how could those things have been punishment for what he said (since they happened before he even said those things)?
You don't know if Job cursed God in his heart, and neither do I, but I would suggest that the evidence points in that direction.He didn't need to because he (Job) clearly did retain his integrity. If he didn't then why in the world would God have blessed him with double what he had before? If he didn't pass the test then he would have cursed God just as his wife told him to do. But he didn't.
God bless Job with a double portion after Job repented, and there was found a ransom for his life. If you notice his skin became fresher than a child's, at least according to Elihu, and the only place a skin is fresher than a child's is in the mother's womb. That is what Nicodemus said, can an old man be born again, born from his mother's womb. Remember Job cursed his first birth from the womb.
Job didn't know it was wrong to mock God? Job didn't know that it was not OK to reprove God? Job didn't know that it was not proper to say his righteousness was greater than God's?I believe we have to make a distinction between knowingly making accusations against God and ignorantly doing so. Job didn't realize what he was doing.
The fact that Job didn't know they were true proves that Job didn't know God. If he had known God, he would known that God is just.Job 42:Then Job answered the Lord, and said, 2 I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee. 3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.
If Job had said the things that he did about God while knowing that those things weren't actually true then God would have every right to punish him for what he said. But God knew that Job said those things out of ignorance and He knew that since Job was "a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil" he would repent of what he had said if he was corrected. And that is exactly what happened. If Job ever lost his integrity that would mean he would have been corrected by God regarding the things he said that were wrong but would have still tried to maintain that those things he said were true. But he didn't do that. He was a man of integrity because in his heart he wanted to please God and to do what was right. You can have the right attitude towards God and still be ignorant about Him in some ways. That was the case for Job. God is quite merciful in cases like that and is more than willing to forgive the ignorance as long as the person acknowledges that they were wrong when that is revealed to them.
What does hold fast his integrity really mean? Does it mean his righteousness?This is an argument from silence which is not a valid argument. Neither did God say that Job didn't "holdeth fast his integrity". So, you can't just assume that he didn't maintain his integrity just because it doesn't specifically say he did. It doesn't say he didn't, either. The text as a whole indicates that he did and God rewarded that by blessing Job with twice what he had before.
I guess I missed the verses you quoted that you considered as Job blessing God. While I believe I read all your posts, this is what I am now saying, that when I read them I did not realize you were presenting them as Job blessing God.He blessed God several times in his comments and I showed you which verses those are. He also made ignorant statements about God but his intentions were pure. He did not act out in willful rebellion against God. Ignorance does not equate to willful rebellion.
I am sorry that I haven't perceived all that you presented in your posts. I will accept the blame.I have explained them over and over again in this thread. If you don't want to make the effort to read my posts carefully I can't help that. I should not have to define my points once again here when I have already done so a number of times in this thread. I believe I have already made my points clear so how would making them again here make any difference? If you didn't read my posts carefully before why should I think you will read this one carefully?
I believe you need to look at Israel and how God deals with them in order to understand. Paul said they had a zeal for God but it was without knowledge. That their righteousness was by law, and not by faith, and they were not saved.
We see not only a picture of Job in Lamentations, but also in Deuteronomy. In Deuteronomy we have Jacob as the apple of God's eye in Deuteronomy 32:10. God made him to ride on the high places of the earth, and to suck honey out of the rock, and oil out of the flinty rock. We see this same picture in Job chapter 29 and in verse 29:6 we hear Job saying, "When I washed my steps with butter, and the rock poured me out rivers of oil;"
And then in Deuteronomy 32:15 we see Jacob, who is now referred to as Jeshurun (Meaning upright one just like Job.), waxing fat. It is ironic that Eliphaz says this of Job, "Because he covereth his face with fatness, and maketh collops of fat on his flanks." (I don't know if this is merely poetic, or whether Job was exceedingly fat, but regardless it parallels Jacob, or Jeshurun.
And in Deuteronomy 32:20 God says he will hide his face from them, that they are a very froward generation, and people without faith. That he will see what their end will be.
In Job 13:24 Job said to God, "Wherefore hidest thou thy face, and holdest me for thine
Deuteronomy 32:23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them.
Job 6:4 For the arrows of the Almighty are within me, the poison whereof drinketh up my spirit: the terrors of God do set themselves in array against me.
And we see the same thing in Lamentations 3:13. He hath caused the arrows of his quiver to enter into my reins. I present Lamentations here because this is the chapter that has a parallel verse in Job for the first eighteen verses. This is a picture of the cup of wrath for Israel, (Or Jacob) and it is said to be passed on to Edom dwelling in the land of Uz.
Deuteronomy 32:24 They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust.
Notice the beast and the serpent. Behemoth and leviathan. Notice that leviathan is called a serpent in Isaiah 27:1
Deuteronomy 32:28 For they are a nation void of counsel, neither is there any understanding in them.
Job was without understanding, wasn't he?
Deuteronomy 32:29 O that they were wise, that they understood this, that they would consider their latter end!
Job 42:12 So the Lord blessed the latter end of Job, more than his beginning.
Why, because Job repented of his iniquity.
Deuteronomy 32:33 Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps.
Job 20:16 He shall suck the poison of asps: the viper's tongue shall slay him.
Deuteronomy 32:35 To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.
Deuteronomy 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
Jesuhurun was the upright one until iniquity was found in him. God is merciful.
In continuance of the above thread.
In comparing the relationship between Deuteronomy 32 and the book of Job I neglected to add these statements one by Moses and the other by Job. After they speak of their speech notice that Moses states that his speech shall drop as the rain because of the greatness of God, while Job attributes his speech dropping as rain due to himself, and the light of his own countenance.
Deuteronomy 32:2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:
And then Moses said,
Deuteronomy 32:3-4 Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God. He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
Job 29:22-23 After my words they spake not again; and my speech dropped upon them. And they waited for me as for the rain; and they opened their mouth wide as for the latter rain.
And then Job said,
Job 29:24-25 If I laughed on them, they believed it not; and the light of my countenance they cast not down. I chose out their way, and sat chief, and dwelt as a king in the army, as one that comforteth the mourners.
Also compare what Job said about himself in Job chapter 29:19
Job 29:19 My root was spread out by the waters, and the dew lay all night upon my branch.
This sounds like a rather innocuous verse, but compare it with some others.
Ezekiel 31:7 Thus was he fair in his greatness, in the length of his branches: for his root was by great waters.
In Ezekiel we find the Pharaoh of Egypt, called an Assyrian, with his roots spread out by great waters. And then we find him in Eden, in the garden of God. Evidently the Assyrian had made a contract with leviathan.
The roots spread out by great waters depict the tree in the midst of the garden surrounded by the five rivers. The tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Ezekiel 31:9 I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him.
The tree is Satan, the branches are the children of pride. Notice in Job 29:19 that the branch is singular.
Notice that Pharaoh of Egypt was delivered over to Satan because he lifted himself up.
Ezekiel 31:10-11 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast lifted up thyself in height, and he hath shot up his top among the thick boughs, and his heart is lifted up in his height; I have therefore delivered him into the hand of the mighty one of the heathen; he shall surely deal with him: I have driven him out for his wickedness.
Nebuchadnezzar also had a relationship with this tree.
Daniel 4:11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth:
If you compare this tree with the tree in Ezekiel you will see that they are the same tree.
The tree was cut down and stripped of everything, just as Job was cut down and stripped of everything, but the stump was left. God said to Satan, save his life, and that was the stump that was left in the ground.
The stump was left with a band of iron and brass, and in Job we hear God asking Job about the great beast, Behemoth, whose bones are made of iron and brass. The beast whose tail is made of cedar, just as the Assyrian was a cedar tree.
The Assyrian was a tree, Nebuchadnezzar was a tree, Job was a tree. They were all tied to Satan through pride. The Assyrian was tied to Eden and had many branches, while Job had only one branch.
The trees are kings of nations, and are all tied by a common thread to the tree in the garden of God. Satan stands behind every king of pride.
Or perhaps a judge?He was the greatest man of the east. He wore a robe and a crown. He sat chief, as a king in the army. All the princes and nobles were afraid of him. He decided all the justice and judgment. Sure sounds like a king to me.
If you don't think this is a stinking life, then perhaps you haven't suffered, or perhaps you are easily satisfied, or perhaps you haven't lived long enough to see life promise so much but deliver so little. You might want to read and study the book of Ecclesiastes. Or perhaps you have confused the significance and meaning of the afterlife with this life?You see, I don't think it is a stinking life, and pointless. God is good and gracious to us. All that God made is beautiful, and if we have tribulation he will uphold us.
The prior verse, Job 36:16 (Even so would he have removed thee out of the strait into a broad place, where there is no straitness; and that which should be set on thy table should be full of fatness.) needs to be examined.
The words “strait” and “straitness” are two different words.
The first time “strait” (Hebrew “peh”) is used is in Genesis 4:11 “ And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth6310(peh) to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;” Of the nearly 500 times it is used, 340 times it is translated as mouth.
The word “straitness” (Hebrew “muwtsaq”) is found only three times in the bible, twice in Job, and once in Isaiah. In Job it has the meaning of narrow, and in Isaiah the meaning of vexation. I believe for Job it has the meaning of being caught in a trap, or a snare.
The word “broad place” (Hebrew “rachab”) is unique in that it occurs only in the book of Job, and only twice, once by Elihu, and once by God. When God used “rachab” it was translated “breadth of the earth”.
The second part of verse 16 says, “and that which should be set on thy table should be full of fatness.”
If you go back to Genesis 27:39 and read the blessing given to Esau, Isaac says to Esau, “Behold, thy dwelling shall be the fatness of the earth, and of the dew of heaven from above.”
Job had been given the fatness of the earth, and also we see the dew of heaven on his branch in Job 29:19, but all this had been taken from Job.
Lets drop back to verse 15 where it says, God delivers the poor in his affliction, and then to 16 where Elihu says to Job, you Job, God would have also removed from your affliction (or mouth, or narrow way), just as the poor, and placed you into the broad place (Or out of the snare) and restored everything.
And then we go to verse 17. But (big word) you have fulfilled the judgment of the wicked: judgment and justice take hold on thee.
And then we go to verse 18. Because there is wrath, beware lest he take you away with his stroke, then a great ransom cannot deliver thee.
Let us place your meanings in between verses 16 and 18.
“Even so would he have removed thee out of the strait into a broad place, where there is no straitness; and that which should be set on your table should be full of fatness. But your job was judge, and as a judge you pronounced sentence on the wicked: as a judge you valued justice. Because there is wrath, beware lest he take thee away with his stroke: then a great ransom cannot deliver thee.”
Do you really believe that is what Elihu meant?
But notice the contrast Elihu sets up between what happens to a young atheist and Job.
13 "But the godless in heart lay up anger; They do not cry for help when He binds them. 14 "They die in youth, And their life [perishes] among the cult prostitutes.
Elihu thinks and says that the godless in heart are angry and they die young and poor. They do not cry for help; they die young; and they perish among the cult prostitutes (which means they spent life in pleasure, not settling down to get married and have kids.) By contrast, Elihu compares the young atheist with the afflicted.
15 "He delivers the afflicted in their affliction, And opens their ear in [time of] oppression.
By contrast to the young atheist, God delivers the afflicted in their affliction, presumably because the afflicted cry out and God opens their ear. That is, in order for the afflicted to find deliverance, the afflicted need to hear God and walk in his ways, something the young atheist will not do. Where as the afflicted cry out to God, "what do I do?" the young atheist remains angry and doesn't cry out to God for help. When God binds him up, he simply seeks pleasure from prostitutes and dies young without any children or inheritance.
Then Elihu looks at Job with these two categories at hand and gives his opinion as to which one is true for Job. Was Job the young atheist who was angry and died young, or was Job the one who cried out in affliction and opened his ears to God's advice?
Job did not die young:
Contrary to the fate of the young atheist who died poor in the arms of a prostitute, Job lived a long time, he had many children, and he lived with the benefit of God's wisdom.
16 "Then indeed, He enticed you from the mouth of distress, Instead of it, a broad place with no constraint; And that which was set on your table was full of fatness.
Elihu's argument is this: Job, you are not the young atheist who resisted the wisdom of God. You did not die young and poor and in the arms of a prostitute. You are the old man who lived a long time, listening to God, listening to his wisdom, and whenever you got into a bind he opened your eyes. Contrary to what happens to the young atheist, you ended up living on a huge estate with no boundaries and your table was constantly filled with food. Given that it has always been the course of your life to listen to God, then why not listen to him now? That's his argument.
Verse 36:17 begins a warning.
17 "But you were full of judgment on the wicked; Judgment and justice take hold [of you]. 18 "[Beware] that wrath does not entice you to scoffing; And do not let the greatness of the ransom turn you aside.
Elihu grants that Job properly judged the wicked, and that justice was high on Job's list of values. Judgment and justice "took hold" of Job. That is, if Judgment and Justice were people, they would have a grasp of Job such that these values rule and dictate Job's life. He served justice rather than injustice. So Job knows justice and injustice when he sees it. And what is happening to Job is unjust in Job's opinion.
Naturally, when we witness injustice, especially injustice done to us, we get angry. We get mad. We want someone to do something about it. Either someone do something about it or we will. Job was justifiably angry. He was very angry and he wanted God to explain himself.
Elihu's warning was this. Don't let your sense of justice and what you see is a lack of justice on God's part, cause you to lose respect for God. In a moment of anger, don't allow yourself to mock God for his seeming lack of concern for justice. As a man of justice you appreciate the value of justice and you are right to do so. And you are fully in your right to be angry when you see injustice. But don't allow your anger to lead you to scoff at God.
And don't let the greatness of the ransom turn you aside. That is, don't think that the ransom God owes you is so large, that you stop seeking for it. Don't be tempted to think that God owes you so much that it is impossible for him to repay you or more importantly, it will be impossible for you to forgive him.
Now, in fact, God does not owe Job anything, and God does not need Job's forgiveness. Even so, Elihu is warning Job not to close his heart to God. Whether God is obligated to seek Job's forgiveness or not, Job thinks so. And if Job thinks he won't get an apology from God, Job might decide to give up on God and become his enemy. Elihu is warning Job: don't do that. Don't let your wrath cause you to scoff at God, and don't let the size of your perceived injustice cause you to leave God.
Job 36:8 And if they are bound in fetters, And are caught in the cords of affliction, Then He declares to them their work And their transgressions, that they have magnified themselves. "He opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they return from evil. "If they hear and serve Him, They will end their days in prosperity And their years in pleasures. But if they do not hear, they shall perish by the sword. And they will die without knowledge.
Those verses say Job was evil, and if he didn’t turn around he was going to perish.
What do you do with those verses?
A cpl of observations to consider.
Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.
The author said this about Job, this is not Job bragging on himself.
Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
This time it's the LORD that says this about Job, and not that Job is bragging on himself.
Did the LORD really mean this instead? And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil, EVEN THO HE HIMSELF IS EVIL? Seriously, what kind of sense would that make? But if one concludes Job is really evil, even tho he escheweth evil, then what does that say about God? That God didn't mind that Job himself was evil, just as long as he escheweth evil? How can that be logical, to escheweth evil and be evil at the same time? Anyone that would conclude that Job was really evil the whole time..I don't know..but I find that a far fetched conclusion.
Job was a servant of God. Saul-Paul was a servant of God.
Job was upright and blameless. Saul-Paul was upright and blamless.
Job had a zeal for the Lord. Saul-Paul had a zeal for the Lord.
Job carried out his own righteousness . Saul-Paul carried out his own righteousness.
God afflicted Job. God afflicted Saul-Paul.
Job met God. Saul-Paul met God.
Job was king over the army, but Saul-Paul was only a centurion.
Theodicy, I like that, but what does it mean, since it has no universally accepted definition. Doesn't it only offer confusion?You claimed that Job 36:8-12 said Job was evil, which they don't. You're confusing Elihu's explanation for Job's suffering (Job must have done something wrong) with God's words about Job (1:8 -- Job hasn't done anything wrong, he's righteous before the Lord). An uncomfortable theodicy perhaps, but nothing about Job being evil.
Perhaps you can correct my thinking on these verses.
Job 36:8 "And if they are bound in fetters, and are caught in the cords of affliction;"
Isn't Elihu referring to the righteous who are caught up in affliction, and isn't the direct implication that he is referring to Job? And if not Job then who?
Job 36:9 "Then he declares to them their work And their transgressions, that they have magnified themselves."
If Elihu was referring to Job in verse 8, then Elihu is still referring to Job in verse 9. If you magnify yourself, isn't that the same as exalting yourself.
Job 36:10 "He opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from evil."
Isn't Elihu still talking to Job here, and doesn't he say for Job to turn from evil?
Job 36:11 "If they hear and serve Him, They will end their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures."
Isn't Elihu saying to Job that if he obeys God's commands he will end his days prosperous.
Job 36:12 "But if they do not hear, they shall perish by the sword And they shall die without knowledge"
We know that Job was without knowledge. Hasn't Elihu just told Job that if he didn't turn around in a different direction he was going to die?
Isn't this a repeat of what Elihu told Job in chapter 33, when Elihu said God speaks to men in visions of the night, and they do not perceive it? Isn't that the difference between hearing and not hearing? And then in chapter 33 Elihu said God's speaks to men to keep pride from them. Isn't that what magnifying one's self is all about, "pride"? And in chapter 33 the reason God speaks is to keep man's soul from the pit. And Elihu says God touches man's bones with strong pain. We know that God did this to Job. And the obvious reason for the strong pain is that Job didn't hear or heed the visions. And the reason for the strong pain, Elihu states, is to keep man back from the grave. This is the same as it says in Job 36:12, that if they don't obey the command to turn, they will perish.
If all this is not talking about Job, then who?
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