1 Corinthians 14 and Pentecostalism

[ReigningKing]

NOTE: I am not in the intention for this to turn into a debate, or to attack the Pentecostal denomination. I have family and friends that are in this denomination, and I love them dearly.

I was reading 1 Corinthians 14 the other day, and I was on the area where Paul was speaking about orderly worship. I am curious if Pentecostals take Paul's writings here into account, or ignore it. The issue I see with the Pentecostal denomination, is that more time is spent conjuring up emotion, and the Holy Spirit, rather than being in the Word. This is purely my opinion, a d I wanted to know my fellow believers thoughts on this as well.

In His Love,
Todd

[Watchman]

Hi RK,

I agree that in some charismatic congregations I've seen, that much emotional frenzy is attributed to the manifestions of the Holy Spirit. I've seen other congregations that were very orderly and Bible-based. The Holy Spirit should, according to scripture, play a controlling role in our meetings, our worship, and our lives. Being in the word apart from his leading can, and does, cause division, strife, and a multitude of other problems.

blessings,

Watchman

PS: Pentecostalism isn't a denomination, fwiw. At any rate, it should be interesting to read the replies to your query.

[Jemand]

NOTE: I am not in the intention for this to turn into a debate, or to attack the Pentecostal denomination. I have family and friends that are in this denomination, and I love them dearly.

I was reading 1 Corinthians 14 the other day, and I was on the area where Paul was speaking about orderly worship. I am curious if Pentecostals take Paul's writings here into account, or ignore it. The issue I see with the Pentecostal denomination, is that more time is spent conjuring up emotion, and the Holy Spirit, rather than being in the Word. This is purely my opinion, a d I wanted to know my fellow believers thoughts on this as well.

In His Love,
Todd

“Pentecostal denomination”? “Conjuring up emotion, and the Holy Spirit”?

There are many Pentecostal denominations, the largest of which is the Assemblies of God, and the beliefs and practices of these Pentecostal denominations markedly differ from each other. Moreover, the practices of the individual congregations differ—ranging from the overly subdued to the wildly fanatical.

Do you interpret 1 Corinthians 14 to be teaching that a church service should be so extremely subdued that the members of the congregation sit in the pews without feeling any emotion? Do you interpret 1 Corinthians 14 to be teaching that the Holy Spirit is a demonic spirit that Pentecostal Christians conjure up? Do you believe the any Christian denominations or groups of denominations “ignore” parts of the New Testament?

[ReigningKing]

“Pentecostal denomination”? “Conjuring up emotion, and the Holy Spirit”?

There are many Pentecostal denominations, the largest of which is the Assemblies of God, and the beliefs and practices of these Pentecostal denominations markedly differ from each other. Moreover, the practices of the individual congregations differ—ranging from the overly subdued to the wildly fanatical.

Of course. I realize that there are multiple Pentecostal denominations. I apologize.

Do you interpret 1 Corinthians 14 to be teaching that a church service should be so extremely subdued that the members of the congregation sit in the pews without feeling any emotion?

No, of course not. I ment in the sense that it has order. People have the freedom to do whatever they want. But, it needs to be orderly. I'm sure no one wants to be in a church service with multiple people speaking in tongues all at once. Emotion is important, but not when it's the controlling factor. God should be the center, not our emotions.

Do you interpret 1 Corinthians 14 to be teaching that the Holy Spirit is a demonic spirit that Pentecostal Christians conjure up?

Are you putting words in my mouth? I didn't say demonic anywhere in the OP. I ment "conjure up" in the sense of putting emotion ahead of God. He is the focal point, not the speaking of tongues.

Do you believe the any Christian denominations or groups of denominations “ignore” parts of the New Testament?

Yes, when it is something their denomination disagrees with.

[Jemand]

No, of course not. I ment in the sense that it has order. People have the freedom to do whatever they want. But, it needs to be orderly. I'm sure no one wants to be in a church service with multiple people speaking in tongues all at once. Emotion is important, but not when it's the controlling factor. God should be the center, not our emotions.

Pentecostal Christians believe in the deity of the Holy Spirit; they do not believe in the deity of their emotions.

Are you putting words in my mouth? I didn't say demonic anywhere in the OP. I ment "conjure up" in the sense of putting emotion ahead of God. He is the focal point, not the speaking of tongues.

“Conjure up” does NOT have that sense.

Yes, when it is something their denomination disagrees with.

They do not ignore anything in the New Testament—they interpret it differently than you do.

[The Mighty Sword]

As a Pentecostal I see I see it as, any congregation that focuses on one emphasis of scripture starts to fall into a "cult" category, I simply refer to 2 Timothy 3;16.

[Watchman]

I have a question, RK. What, in your understanding, is the role of our God-given emotions? Like you, I'm not trying to stir up a debate, but emotions seem to get trashed around here all the time, and little effort is made to define their proper role.

Thanks!

Andy aka Watchman

[ReigningKing]

Pentecostal Christians believe in the deity of the Holy Spirit; they do not believe in the deity of their emotions.

Of course they do. I never implied that they do not. The only issue I have is that some people get so wrapped up in their emotions, that they lose sight of what is truly important, and that is God, and the Word. I would never dare to question someone's salvation. That is NOT my intention, and if it seems like I did, I completely apologize.

“Conjure up” does NOT have that sense.

Poor word choice on my part, I apologize.

[Watchman]

Here's at least part of the reason the word, conjure, was noted negatively, fwiw:

1.perform magic tricks: to perform illusions and magic tricks that require agile hand movements, usually for entertainment
2.invoke supposed supernatural forces: to call upon or order a supposed supernatural force or being by reciting a spell
3.influence something with spell: to change or influence something by reciting a spell or invocation

W

PS: after posting this I saw your clarification...sorry!

[ReigningKing]

I have a question, RK. What, in your understanding, is the role of our God-given emotions? Like you, I'm not trying to stir up a debate, but emotions seem to get trashed around here all the time, and little effort is made to define their proper role.

Thanks!

Andy aka Watchman

Emotion's role in the Church is to worship the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, not to show off, IMO. It's all fine and dandy if someone speaks in tongues. I'm not going to argue that it's not, because Scripture backs that up, and I cannot argue with the Word of God. If people feel like God is urging them to speak in tongues, they should. But in an orderly way.

[Jemand]

The only issue I have is that some people get so wrapped up in their emotions, that they lose sight of what is truly important, and that is God, and the Word.

“Many people” get “so wrapped up in” peripheral things that they lose sight of the central things, and we find some such people in every denomination and group of denominations.

[episkopos]

It is a very human quality to negate a truth because it has been improperly implemented by other men. We get more denoms in this way.

[BroRog]

NOTE: I am not in the intention for this to turn into a debate, or to attack the Pentecostal denomination. I have family and friends that are in this denomination, and I love them dearly.

I was reading 1 Corinthians 14 the other day, and I was on the area where Paul was speaking about orderly worship. I am curious if Pentecostals take Paul's writings here into account, or ignore it. The issue I see with the Pentecostal denomination, is that more time is spent conjuring up emotion, and the Holy Spirit, rather than being in the Word. This is purely my opinion, a d I wanted to know my fellow believers thoughts on this as well.

In His Love,
Todd

One of the major distinctions that marks the difference between a Pentecostal church and other churches is the style and form of the service. Prior to Pentecostalism, most church services followed a scholastic form, which looked very similar to a university class. The room had a central podium, perhaps raised high above the floor, from which the pastor would give his sermon, which was basically a lecture with a form and style similar to that of a typical university classroom. The major contributers to the service was a handful of people including the pastor, music director, and perhaps someone to read announcements. Most churches reserved full participation for the singing of hymns and reading/response. But for the most part, the only men who contributed content to the meeting were the pastor and the choir director.

By contrast, however, the Pentecostal church service was more participatory, allowing more people other than the pastor and the choir director to contribute content to the service. Not only will the pastor have something to say, a guest preacher might preach, a word of knowledge might be given by someone else, a prophecy might also be given by a another person. Several people will speak in tongues and others will give the interpretation.

The architecture is usually different, suitable to each style of service. As was mentioned earlier, the scholastic style required a central, raised podium and most likely the podium would be located in the front of the room, placing the pastor or speaker higher and above the laity. In Pentecostal churches the podium is at the level of the congregation and if possible, placed in the middle of the room with seating located around the podium in a circular arrangement.

More could be said about the comparison between the scholastic style of service and the participatory style, but in either case, from my own observations and experience, neither style is more or less disorderly than the other. If an outsider were to enter a Pentecostal church at a particular point in the service, one might conclude that it was disorderly, but in reality, the service simply has an order of an unfamiliar kind.

For instance, a room designed for the scholastic style of service will have pews, long wooden benches, which allow for the congregation to be organized by family association, giving mother and father a chance to keep sister and brother quiet during a lecture. Architecture intended for participatory service will not have fixed, linear seating but individual, portable chairs, which allow for movement and reorganization according to the needs of the moment.

One of the most notable aspects of full participation churches is the additional use of dance as a form of expression. Whereas scholastic churches will have liturgical artwork on the walls, ceilings and doors, stained glass in the windows, and choral music giving expressions of the praise and worship of God, participatory churches will add dance and group singing to the service encouraging anyone who desires it to dance or sing in worship and gratitude to God. But even in these churches, there is a time and place for each form of expression, and a systematic, ritual order for each one. Most Pentecostal churches I attended, had a predictable order to the service, even as room was made for impromptu expressions of worship and praise, which might include a word of knowledge or a prophecy or what-have-you.

We could talk about all the ways such a service might go wrong. But I would rather, in this post, just lay out the differences between the two major styles without being judgmental or expressing my own personal preference. In short, both styles are systematic and orderly to some degree or another and are not necessarily disorderly by nature or design.

[Slug1]

NOTE: I am not in the intention for this to turn into a debate, or to attack the Pentecostal denomination. I have family and friends that are in this denomination, and I love them dearly.

I was reading 1 Corinthians 14 the other day, and I was on the area where Paul was speaking about orderly worship. I am curious if Pentecostals take Paul's writings here into account, or ignore it. The issue I see with the Pentecostal denomination, is that more time is spent conjuring up emotion, and the Holy Spirit, rather than being in the Word. This is purely my opinion, a d I wanted to know my fellow believers thoughts on this as well.

In His Love,
Todd

When the Holy Spirit is manifesting and order in the church is per the scriptures, tongues will be spoken as the Holy Spirit enables through 1-3 people when another (a 4th) is manifesting the gift of interpretation of tongues. Should there be no manifestation of the gift of interpretation of tongues, then those speaking in tongues are to keep the tongues speaking to themselves (v28), effectively remaining silent.

Failure to be in discipline to v28 is where those who are UNdiscipled are accused of being "emotional". They are just doing what the Corinthians were doing and was one to the situations that needed FIXING when Paul began to disciple the Corinthians. This same "discipling" is in need for many churches today where tongues seems to be more of a shouting match, than decent and in order (v40).

The issue I see with the Pentecostal denomination, is that more time is spent conjuring up emotion, and the Holy Spirit, rather than being in the Word.

Six years ago, God led me to serve Him at a church that is Pentecostal. believe me when I say that I was wondering what God was doing "TO" me. Since this period of service began, I will have to disagree with your assessment. The emotion I have either experienced myself or witnessed as others are ministered to by the Holy Spirit is just that... from the Holy Spirit. As for being in the Word... well, I began as one of the primary Bible teachers in this church Body that God has me serving and I am only ONE of many who are teachers and there are many learning.

Since this period of service to God has begun, I've come to a conclusion that prior to this... all MY personal emotion that I've experienced at a service, a service that was dictated by a "schedule" right down to a minute by minute play by play, song by song, etc... any emotion I did experience during these controlled services was actually "conjuring up emotion". If I didn't conjure up any emotion... there was NEVER any experienced. Also, when I DID experience emotion at such a type of controlled service, then it was only on the physical and emotional level. The reason I say this is because should I have raised my hand and yell out Hallalujah or AMEN... I'd be told to keep quiet because I was out of order.

However, when the Holy Spirit is FLOWING and He is allowed to move FREELY through a congregation... you CAN stop YOURSELF from praising, jumping, crying out Hallelujah, etc.... but WHY? Should the Holy Spirit be moving and prompting such joyous worship and praise... if it's not happening for any specific person, then they are quenching the Spirit.

In a church that is more scholastic style (as BroRog has detailed) it is more likely that you will be STOPPED by the leadership of the church, should the Holy Spirit move you to jump out into the aisles during worship and dance, praise, etc.

Anyway... now I understand what it is to experience emotion on a "spiritual" level. This CANNOT be "conjured" by our own ability... ONLY the Holy Spirit can enable a person to worship IN the spirit and thus when the Holy Spirit is flowing, the emotion experienced is spiritual in nature.

After these six years and now as an Assoc. Pastor in this church... I understand what God was doing FOR me... not "to" me

I am pretty much free of the conditioning from the scholastic style of church service that I grew up in where you were not ALLOWED to be free in the Holy Spirit and how He moves the Body of Christ. I can ONLY thank God in doing this "FOR" me!!

[divaD]

However, when the Holy Spirit is FLOWING and He is allowed to move FREELY through a congregation...

I just don't understand the logic in this. This isn't the first time I've heard this said. Who is more powerful? Man? Or the Holy Spirit? How can any man have enough power, in order to cause the Holy Spirit to not move freely through a congregation? So when folks react emotionally, like shouting out, etc, this means the Holy Spirit has been allowed to move around freely? And if no one in a congregation feels emotionally charged, this indicates the Holy Spirit has not been allowed to move freely? Do you have any NT Scriptural examples that show emotion playing a huge role in a congregation, indicating the Holy Spirit was allowed to move freely about?

Since this thread is about 1 Cor 14, do you think these folks were all acting out in emotions, such as shouting, dancing in the aisles? If they did, do you think Paul approved of it, especially since the idea was to bring order, and not confusion? Speaking of things like that, when the 2nd temple was still being used and even visited by Jesus, do you think folks were acting emotionally charged in there, where they pretty much acted like what one might see and witness in a typical charismatic gathering?