1 Corinthians 14 and Pentecostalism

[Watchman]

1) How can any man have enough power, in order to cause the Holy Spirit to not move freely through a congregation? 2) So when folks react emotionally, like shouting out, etc, this means the Holy Spirit has been allowed to move around freely? 3) And if no one in a congregation feels emotionally charged, this indicates the Holy Spirit has not been allowed to move freely? 4) Do you have any NT Scriptural examples that show emotion playing a huge role in a congregation, indicating the Holy Spirit was allowed to move freely about?

numbers added by Watchman

We are able to quench the Spirit, yes? When folks express their feelings at the motivation of the Spirit, then He is being allowed to move freely; however, when they simply emote sans His unction, that is chaotic. Third question--the answer is no. Fourth question: Acts 4:23-31 is a likely example. Admittedly, the word, emotion, does not occur in scripture; however, there can be no doubt about the emotions associated with this passage. A key to understanding proper emoting is understanding whether the motivation is from the Holy Spirit, or from one's self.

blessings,

W

[Slug1]

I just don't understand the logic in this. This isn't the first time I've heard this said. Who is more powerful? Man? Or the Holy Spirit? How can any man have enough power, in order to cause the Holy Spirit to not move freely through a congregation?

If man could not... then this scripture has no meaning in the Bible:


~Do not quench the Spirit ~ 1 Thessalonians 5:19~

So when folks react emotionally, like shouting out, etc, this means the Holy Spirit has been allowed to move around freely? And if no one in a congregation feels emotionally charged, this indicates the Holy Spirit has not been allowed to move freely? Do you have any NT Scriptural examples that show emotion playing a huge role in a congregation, indicating the Holy Spirit was allowed to move freely about?

Well... we know that those who worship should do this in the spirit and in truth... John 4:23-24

Shouting out as the Holy Spirit moves a person is not "reacting" emotionally... this is worshiping in the spirit, thus on a spiritual level. Can people do the same on a physical level... of course. When people are fired up at church, they may jump up and holler out the same as they would when they are fired up during the Superbowl and a touchdown is made... emotions are VERY powerful.

When the Holy Spirit is involved this emotion takes on a "spiritual" quality as well and this is why when the Holy Spirit is flowing the spiritual quality of emotional reaction to the Holy Spirit lasts beyond "normal" worship. So what do I mean by "normal" worship... normal worship is when 9:00 to 9:20 it is dictated to the church that ALL worship will be conducted during the Sunday service. No more than 4 songs so if this is shorter than that 20 minutes slot, no additional songs are lifted to God. Should the worship leader worship longer than that 20 minute slot of time, then a leader of the church is calling out the next slotted event that is on the schedule that is to begin no later than 9:21.

Worshiping in the spirit, there is no real timeslot because worship is as long as the Spirit... leads. Worship can be before, during and after any and all portions of entire period of the entire service. When there is a transition from song to song, there in no pause in the worship and praise that people in the congregation are expressing to God because worship isn't because a song is playing.

Since this thread is about 1 Cor 14, do you think these folks were all acting out in emotions, such as shouting, dancing in the aisles?

No, and actually, I have no idea why 1 Cor 14 is used concerning a topic specific to worship. 1 Cor 14 was due to a lack of understanding in the gifts of tongues, interpretations of tongues and prophetic words.

If they did, do you think Paul approved of it, especially since the idea was to bring order, and not confusion?

Of course he approved because the conclusion to 1 Cor 14 (v39-40) is to allow (decently and in order) what the topic of 1 Cor 14 is all about.

Speaking of things like that, when the 2nd temple was still being used and even visited by Jesus, do you think folks were acting emotionally charged in there, where they pretty much acted like what one might see and witness in a typical charismatic gathering?

Don't know...

What is a "typical" charismatic gathering?

I ask because if any given church has a person prayed for and they are miraculously healed and the entire Body in that church praise God for the rest of the service... aren't they what is considered "Charismatic"?

Or do they not praise at all or just whisper a "praise God" when God heals a person because they don't WANT to be called... charismatic?? Serious question because isn't ANY church that prays for God to do a miracle and He answers... considered Charismatic???

[Slug1]

numbers added by Watchman

We are able to quench the Spirit, yes?

HAHAHAHA, I typed more so you got this in first

[Watchman]

HAHAHAHA, I typed more so you got this in first

Does that make me the winner...or the worse explainer?

[divaD]

IDon't know...

What is a "typical" charismatic gathering?

It's been the mid 80s since I attended a charismatic church, but a typical gathering would be one of shouting, folks dancing in the aisles, hundreds of folks speaking in tongues at the same time, etc. Since I mentioned the 2nd temple, and since Jesus called it His Father's house, we at least know tongues wouldn't have been used in there, since tongues came later. So we can leave that one out. But what about shouting or dancing? Would they have done that in the Father's house? I'm not saying that shouting and dancing would be wrong or anything, but maybe there's a time and place for that, meaning maybe not in a church setting tho?

Here's my point. What about the still small voice? Why can't the Holy Spirit move through a congregation, one that keeps emotions intact, then as folks remain quiet, they hear the Holy Spirit speak to them in a still small voice? Wouldn't it be kind of hard to hear a still small voice with a lot of shouting going on?

One last thing. I personally never visited or was a Pentecostal. I was a charismatic, and the church was non denominational. So my question is, is there a difference between charismatics and Pentecostals? If there is, what would be the major differences? Also keep in mind, if there is a vast difference, I'm coming from a perspective of a former charismatic, and not a former Pentecostal.

II ask because if any given church has a person prayed for and they are miraculously healed and the entire Body in that church praise God for the rest of the service... aren't they what is considered "Charismatic"?

The ironic thing about it, this seems to be the only places these things seem to occur. Why doesn't any of this ever occur out in public, where unbelievers could witness these things? But to be honest, per your question, then yes..what you describe would be stereotypical of charismatics, at least as seen via non charismatics.

IOr do they not praise at all or just whisper a "praise God" when God heals a person because they don't WANT to be called... charismatic?? Serious question because isn't ANY church that prays for God to do a miracle and He answers... considered Charismatic???

I'm getting the impression that perhaps you feel charismatics are like a bad name to some of us? Speaking for myself, the only charismatics I would likely have an issue with, would be those that bark like dogs..plus the whole 9 yards that goes along with that..the animal noises, etc, then attributing that to the Holy Spirit. Other than that, I'm just trying to understand certain things, such as, if a church never experiences any emotions whatsoever, why this might indicate the Holy Spirit is being restricted from moving within these congregations?

[Watchman]

I'm just trying to understand certain things, such as, if a church never experiences any emotions whatsoever, why this might indicate the Holy Spirit is being restricted from moving within these congregations?

Joy is an emotion, yes? And fruit produced in us by the Holy Spirit, yes? If no rejoicing ever occurred in a given congregation, I'd hafta say the Spirit is being restricted. What say you?

W

[divaD]

Joy is an emotion, yes? And fruit produced in us by the Holy Spirit, yes? If no rejoicing ever occurred in a given congregation, I'd hafta say the Spirit is being restricted. What say you?

W

I do not disagree with your point whatsoever. So the question is, can someone be joyful without having to dance for example? My point being, just because no one might be expressing themselves in an outward manner, does this have to imply that they can't be joyous inside? Maybe they express that joy outwardly at home or something. Take my late grandmother for instance. She had to be the most joyful person I had ever known in my life. She was always singing, whistling tunes around the house, some of the old fashioned gospel type tunes. She would almost be like dancing sometimes, even shouting for joy at times. But when she was at church, she kept herself pretty reserved. She would sing the hymns right along with everyone else when they did, but you never heard her shouting or saw her dancing in church. She was a Baptist, maybe that explains it..I don't know..I mean the fact she stayed pretty reserved in church.

[BroRog]

If man could not... then this scripture has no meaning in the Bible:


~Do not quench the Spirit ~ 1 Thessalonians 5:19~

Paul didn't mean to say that we can keep the Holy Spirit from moving through a congregation. Quenching the Spirit isn't about reducing the force or affect or the power of the Holy Spirit; its about despising prophetic utterances. Verse 19 goes with verses 20 and 21.

19 Do not quench the Spirit; 20 do not despise prophetic utterances. 21 But examine everything; hold fast to that which is good; 22 abstain from every form of evil.

The two sentences in verses 19 and 20 are parallel. Quenching the spirit is despising prophetic utterances, not attenuating the Holy Spirit. Paul isn't concerned that Timothy will keep the Holy Spirit from sending a prophet, he is concerned that Timothy will ignore what a prophet might say to him. Rather than rejecting what the prophet says outright, Paul wants Timothy to examine what a prophet says and hold fast to the good stuff. There will be false prophets to be sure, but don't ignore all prophets for the sake of the good ones. Examine what each prophet has to say and hold fast to what aligns with scripture.

1Timothy 5:19 doesn't support the notion that a congregation or the pastor of a church can keep the Holy Spirit from working.

[Watchman]

I do not disagree with your point whatsoever. So the question is, can someone be joyful without having to dance for example? My point being, just because no one might be expressing themselves in an outward manner, does this have to imply that they can't be joyous inside? Maybe they express that joy outwardly at home or something. Take my late grandmother for instance. She had to be the most joyful person I had ever known in my life. She was always singing, whistling tunes around the house, some of the old fashioned gospel type tunes. She would almost be like dancing sometimes, even shouting for joy at times. But when she was at church, she kept herself pretty reserved. She would sing the hymns right along with everyone else when they did, but you never heard her shouting or saw her dancing in church. She was a Baptist, maybe that explains it..I don't know..I mean the fact she stayed pretty reserved in church.

Emotions can be expressed in many ways. If the Holy Spirit moves someone to dance before the Lord, then who are we to say that is disorderly? If He does so move one, we can be assured that the dancing will be done in such a way as to glorify our Lord. Is dancing absolutely necessary? Not unless He motivates it. I understand being reserved; however, I also understand following the urgings of the Spirit. This is a narrow path, indeed, and is fraught with wandering off into self-expression and self-exaltation. We are to live orderly lives, just as our meetings are to be orderly. But orderly and funereal are not synonymous. Order means, in my understanding, doing what the Spirit moves one to do without questioning Him.

W

PS: the Spirit forces Himself upon no one...He will not move among the disobedient, ie those who ignore or refuse Him. That is why so many services are more like funerals than worship. Also, worship services as we know them, are rather nonexistent in scripture anyway. (but that is another thread!)

[Slug1]

Paul didn't mean to say that we can keep the Holy Spirit from moving through a congregation. Quenching the Spirit isn't about reducing the force or affect or the power of the Holy Spirit; its about despising prophetic utterances. Verse 19 goes with verses 20 and 21.

19 Do not quench the Spirit; 20 do not despise prophetic utterances. 21 But examine everything; hold fast to that which is good; 22 abstain from every form of evil.

The two sentences in verses 19 and 20 are parallel. Quenching the spirit is despising prophetic utterances, not attenuating the Holy Spirit. Paul isn't concerned that Timothy will keep the Holy Spirit from sending a prophet, he is concerned that Timothy will ignore what a prophet might say to him. Rather than rejecting what the prophet says outright, Paul wants Timothy to examine what a prophet says and hold fast to the good stuff. There will be false prophets to be sure, but don't ignore all prophets for the sake of the good ones. Examine what each prophet has to say and hold fast to what aligns with scripture.

1Timothy 5:19 doesn't support the notion that a congregation or the pastor of a church can keep the Holy Spirit from working.

Hooah... I agree. So, in the way I express this is in error and stand corrected!!

I need to be specific and this is why in the way I'm expressing about the "quenching" or stopping of the Holy Spirit. While the Holy Spirit DOES move people to give prophetic words, today many churches will NOT ALLOW this to even happen (in their church) SO they can't TEST the operation of the Holy Spirit and the validity of any prophetic word given by God through a vessel.

Paul WAS a little more specific in wording at the conclusion of 1 cor 14 (v39) in telling us NOT to stop the Holy Spirit from manifesting when he told us all NOT to STOP the speaking of tongues (which is an element of the main topic of 1 Cor 14, not worship as the OP has begun).

So... when a person (or any doctrine) STOPS a person from speaking in tongues and another from interpreting, then I have referred to this as quenching the Holy Spirit. When a person begins to prophecy and they are told to stop and sit down, to me... this is effectively quenching the Holy Spirit. I DO understand your explanation of the 1 Thess 5:19 scripture(s) in that while the Holy Spirit HAS the ability to continue, it just seems today they MANY do not even allow this and WILL stop the Holy Spirit "in effect" by telling or even making a person STOP from opening their mouth and allow the Holy Spirit to speak.

If a doctrine says that all tongues/prophecy/knowledge has ended and a person believes such doctrine... are they stopping "themselves", or are they stopping the Holy Spirit from manifesting these 3 specific gifts that are from God for a source of encouragement and edification???

We know that not all tongues/prophecy/knowledge spoken IS from the Holy Spirit, thus why the Bible is full of warnings to TEST and v20-21 (1 Thess 5) is another example of the NEED to test.

Just that so many today do what the Thessalonians were doing except they push it to a new level and despise prophecy so much that doctrine is developed AGAINST this gift and thus, NO prophecy is allowed to be manifested in any church with such doctrine.

So, to me... this is quenching the Holy Spirit. If this is a wrong expression of saying that the Holy Spirit is "STOPPED" from operating... OK, I can understand that.

Hooah?

[Slug1]

I do not disagree with your point whatsoever. So the question is, can someone be joyful without having to dance for example?

YES! So my question in return, can a person BE joyful and express this through dance even at church during worship? If they do, is this conjuring up emotion?

My point being, just because no one might be expressing themselves in an outward manner, does this have to imply that they can't be joyous inside? Maybe they express that joy outwardly at home or something.

I understand all you said here. I know there are many times that I am very joyful and will stand still, no hand lifted, no movement during worship. I know the Bible says to pray in a closet... does that mean we don't pray at church? Tossing this question in here for more thought.

It seems that since the Bible does inform us to pray in our "closet" as the saying goes based on this scripture:


Matthew 6:5 “And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 6 But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly.

I've wondered if this scripture is an actual source for being against open and expressive worship during service because generations were taught to be in seclusion when they pray, that this flowed over the worship as well. Many DO express worship through dance while they are ALONE with God.

I've also wondered if it is just a matter of fear birthed from embarrassment should they OPENLY express their joy and thus dance in a church setting and they are more worried about what others will think of them should they openly express their joy in the Lord, through dance?

This is what my problem is... to be honest. It's hard to freely dance because I'm more worried about what people will think of me than what my HEART is trying to express to God. It IS a struggle between the flesh and the Spirit in me. Pride is such an element involved too... will my pride allow me to LOWER myself to abandoning my flesh and freely got out into that aisle and DANCE as I feel in my heart?

Many will say they are not led to dance... while some may not be, WHOLE churches for generation after generation and ALL those many DIFFERENT people. NONE are led to dance??

I do understand "reverence" to the Lord and worship can be expressed in such a way and I've experienced entire congregations express such worship and all you hear is a whispering of prayer, whispered singing, standing, sitting, laying flat on the floor face down while a single voice from a worshiper and no music at all is being lifted up to God.

Take my late grandmother for instance. She had to be the most joyful person I had ever known in my life. She was always singing, whistling tunes around the house, some of the old fashioned gospel type tunes. She would almost be like dancing sometimes, even shouting for joy at times. But when she was at church, she kept herself pretty reserved.

I was the same way... I had to ask myself WHY? For me, it was because of my upbringing and teachings of the church and even today, while I can openly express joy in the same ways that your grandmother did... it was an serious act of surrender to God to continue to express the SAME joy, the SAME WAY... at church along with ALL the other members of the church who were expressing their joy in the Lord through dance and praise in any form that is animated.

For me, (I'm not saying this was for your grandmother) that reservedness was actually a FALSE humbleness and even a false reverence. Soon as God revealed this to me, surrendering the false reservedness over to God so He could remove it, was much easier. As it turned out, I was reserved due to church teaching, not because I was led in the Spirit to NOT move and remain silent while many around me were animated in praise and worship.

In other words... I was quenching the way the Holy Spirit was leading me by holding to the "way" I was taught by a church.

Compound this with my pride... this was an uphill effort until I finally just surrendered. Now it's a matter of that struggle between my flesh (feeling fear and embarrassment) and the Spirit.

She would sing the hymns right along with everyone else when they did, but you never heard her shouting or saw her dancing in church. She was a Baptist, maybe that explains it..I don't know..I mean the fact she stayed pretty reserved in church.

Do you know that people DON'T KNOW that I can sing? This is a the fruit of my reservedness that does still continue today. So is this reservedness of God or not???

Should I sing at church, others will not be able to following me into the presence of God? Singing is for ONLY... me?

It's been the mid 80s since I attended a charismatic church, but a typical gathering would be one of shouting, folks dancing in the aisles, hundreds of folks speaking in tongues at the same time, etc.

Question... is this "the" Charismatic example or is this "A" Charismatic example?

Since I mentioned the 2nd temple, and since Jesus called it His Father's house, we at least know tongues wouldn't have been used in there, since tongues came later. So we can leave that one out.

Hooah... tongues became active only at Pentecost.

But what about shouting or dancing? Would they have done that in the Father's house? I'm not saying that shouting and dancing would be wrong or anything, but maybe there's a time and place for that, meaning maybe not in a church setting tho?

Praise and worship this way, ONLY in the privacy of a room with the door shut?

Here's my point. What about the still small voice? Why can't the Holy Spirit move through a congregation, one that keeps emotions intact, then as folks remain quiet, they hear the Holy Spirit speak to them in a still small voice?

Remaining still and quiet so hearing the Holy Spirit speak and allowing to the Holy Spirit to move you... is not the same thing. I have additional comments on this later in this post.

Wouldn't it be kind of hard to hear a still small voice with a lot of shouting going on?

If listening for the Holy Spirit to illuminate something to you or reveal something to you... I will say YES, a worship environment that is animate in expression of joy to the Lord is an environment where God's quiet voice would not be heard.

This does not mean a person CAN'T listen to that small voice when God is ministering even in the midst of worship.

When your church does an altar call, is the worship team worshiping God with songs lifted up to Him AS elders and ministers are praying over people?

I have never had any difficulty in hearing what God was revealing to me while I was praying over people and I am lead to pray specific prayers while those who did not come to the altar for prayer are worshiping and praising God. Many are usually with their hands outstretched toward those who are being prayed for as they support and intercede in prayer. But praise and worship is happening during this prayer time and I have never "NOT" been able to hear the Holy Spirit lead me in prayer.

What HAS caused me to not be able to hear the Holy Spirit is when an elder or minister is praying next to me and they are so loud in prayer all I am distracted. But when it comes to loud worship and praise while praying over people... I can hear the Holy Spirit clearly.

This REALLY is encouraging to me and those I've prayed for when all they say to me is... "JUST PRAY" and they don't tell me anything. I begin to pray and as the prayer continues as I'm allowing the Holy Spirit to lead me, I find myself touching on the specific situation in their life. For me, I am literally LISTENING to myself pray because "I" don't know what to pray FOR. I have to rely on the Holy Spirit to lead the prayer and in so doing... "I" an encouraged as strongly as the person I'm praying for is encouraged or given an answer, whatever the prayer may entail in ministering to them.

So... while worship is happening, a person CAN hear that small voice of God.

One last thing. I personally never visited or was a Pentecostal. I was a charismatic, and the church was non denominational. So my question is, is there a difference between charismatics and Pentecostals?

I don't know... the way that I grew up in church, ANY church Body where ANY miracle happened was considered Charismatic and the attitude was NOT positive toward those who are Charismatic. Thus the reason I thought to myself 6 years ago when God led me to a Pentecostal church, I was wondering what God was doing "TO" me.

If there is, what would be the major differences? Also keep in mind, if there is a vast difference, I'm coming from a perspective of a former charismatic, and not a former Pentecostal.

I can only express from a Pentecostal experience due to where God has me serving Him for these past 6 years.

The ironic thing about it, this seems to be the only places these things seem to occur. Why doesn't any of this ever occur out in public,

They do, just that testimony of such s/w/m are suppressed.

I served for a season in a ministry called, "Healing Rooms" and many walked in off the streets and walked out healed after prayer. While this was "in" a church building, it was not a service and here's a very interesting fact... about 13 churches support this ministry in the area and members from these many churches serve in the Healing Rooms. Denominations... DON'T MATTER and we do have some demon's that traditionally are NOT Charismatic. A friend of mine is a pastor in the Baptist church in another town and I'm telling you... to hear him pray and God answer and people are healed. You'd never imagine him being "Baptist". People also are healed during services he holds in his church... so why this doesn't happen in other Baptist churches or whatever denom for that matter?

Does their traditional cessationist doctrine hold more power over the Holy Spirit? While the ANSWER is obviously NO... the doctrine is producing it's fruit which is NO s/w/m. God is not allowed to produce should He desire to do a s/w/m and produce such fruit.

That's sad!!

where unbelievers could witness these things?

Well, many unbelievers do witness s/w/m and they remain unbelievers.

But to be honest, per your question, then yes..what you describe would be stereotypical of charismatics, at least as seen via non charismatics.

Thus the reason I raise such discussion.

I'm getting the impression that perhaps you feel charismatics are like a bad name to some of us?

Yes an no... "A" charismatic example CAN be bad fruit while "the" Charismatic example isn't bad.

Speaking for myself, the only charismatics I would likely have an issue with, would be those that bark like dogs..plus the whole 9 yards that goes along with that..the animal noises, etc, then attributing that to the Holy Spirit.

PERFECT example of "A" bad fruit example of a Charismatic experience.

Other than that, I'm just trying to understand certain things, such as, if a church never experiences any emotions whatsoever, why this might indicate the Holy Spirit is being restricted from moving within these congregations?

If generation after generation those who attend a specific church NEVER are animated in joyous worship and praise to the Lord... I would wonder what is leading worship and praise. Should any be moved by the Holy Spirit and they move out into the center aisle and begin to animatedly dance and wave their scarf around and they are told to stop because this is disturbing the "way" that worship is done in the church... well, I would weigh more towards "tradition" is leading worship and not the Holy Spirit.

[RollTide21]

Joy is an emotion, yes? And fruit produced in us by the Holy Spirit, yes? If no rejoicing ever occurred in a given congregation, I'd hafta say the Spirit is being restricted. What say you?

W

That is based purely on the individual. If I am moved by the Spirit in worship, my tendency is to become wracked with emotion...often even being moved to tears. I am stifling nothing by not shouting...or raising my hands...or speaking in tounges. I just am not moved to do any of those things. In fact, the most natural reaction for me is to bow my head and thank Him for showing up and pressing on my heart in that way.

[Watchman]

That is based purely on the individual. If I am moved by the Spirit in worship, my tendency is to become wracked with emotion...often even being moved to tears. I am stifling nothing by not shouting...or raising my hands...or speaking in tounges. I just am not moved to do any of those things. In fact, the most natural reaction for me is to bow my head and thank Him for showing up and pressing on my heart in that way.

In which case I say good for you! Emotion is an indispensible part of our being; however, it is to be under the control of our spirits, which are one spirit with the Lord. I have yet to be moved by the Spirit to dance (publicly), extremely rarely to shout, sometimes to raise hand(s) or look upward...but mostly, like you, to bow before Him in deepest reverence and awe...often with tears of joy flowing freely.

blessings,

Watchman

PS: even God knows white boys can't dance!

[Watchman]

Psalm 66, 81, 95 98, and 100 refer to making a joyful noise to the Lord. When I read them, I don't get the mental image of a buncha folks sitting quietly in pews quietly intoning the words to a hymn. Rather, I get the picture of a football crowd singing the school's fight song after a hard-won victory. Lots of difference there!

W

[divaD]

In which case I say good for you! Emotion is an indispensible part of our being; however, it is to be under the control of our spirits, which are one spirit with the Lord. I have yet to be moved by the Spirit to dance (publicly), extremely rarely to shout, sometimes to raise hand(s) or look upward...but mostly, like you, to bow before Him in deepest reverence and awe...often with tears of joy flowing freely.

blessings,

Watchman

PS: even God knows white boys can't dance!

You really puzzle me then. It's almost as if you're a spokesperson for charismatics or something, yet you yourself don't engage in this emotionalism, at least not publically.



Seriously tho, I don't really have a problem with folks dancing or shouting in church, if that's what they feel led to do. But what I do take a little issue with is this. If at another church things like this don't happen, I don't see why that necessarily has to indicate that the Holy Spirit is being hindered from freely moving thru that congregation. That's what got me started anyway. And Slug1 is to blame(Ah, I'm just kidding of course) . But I do respect Slug1 tho. So I'm willing to try and see things from his perspective. Whether I can agree all the way or not, I guess that's another story.