1 Corinthians 14 and Pentecostalism

[BroRog]

So based on all I've read, you will say they "ignored" the prompting from the Holy Spirit, thus were not obedient to God's will?

I will say, they "quenched" the Holy Spirit, thus were not obedient to God's will.

Either word usage or understanding (you=ignored and me=quenched)... God's will was not done because the Holy Spirit was ignored/quenched.

So either of our understandings and/or word usage... the Holy Spirit's was NOT able to move in or through this person. Would you agree with that?

No, I don't agree. This isn't a matter of semantics. There remains a meaningful distinction between our views. So then, without placing a value judgment on either view, let me summarize the difference. I will not recommend my view but try to be fair to each one.

As I see it there are two ways (at least two) to interpret Paul's exhortation.

1. Disallow the Holy Spirit from doing miracles:

If this is what Paul meant, then "quench the Holy Spirit" means to "disallow" the Holy Spirit to act. His concern is that the Thessalonians might encounter supernatural actions of the Holy Spirit and discourage future supernatural encounters. When Paul exhorts the Thessalonians to not quench the Spirit, he indicates his intent as "do not despise prophetic utterances." If Paul meant "prevent" as in "do not prevent the Holy Spirit", then the phrase "do not despise prophetic utterances" would indicate same thing only in different words but only to add the motive as to why someone might disallow them. One might look down on those who manifest the Holy Spirit and treat them with contempt, because they have rejected the process altogether. This is how many today understand this passage, I think. Do not stop or prevent the Holy Spirit from acting out of your sense of contempt for such things.

2. ignore the message the Holy Spirit brings.

If this is what Paul meant, then quenching the Holy Spirit takes place when someone finds no value or worth in what the Holy Spirit has to say. His concern is that the Thessalonians might dismiss the message given to the apostles and prophets, which is why he follows his exhortation with the statement, "do not despise prophetic utterances." In this interpretation, the verb "despise" means "reject" on the basis that what was uttered has no value. He assumes that the prophetic utterances are being allowed to take place, but he also knows that people reject the word being given.

So, there is a meaningful distinction between our two interpretations. But don't get me wrong. I think both are wrong. That is, I think that it is unrighteous to disallow the practice of the gifts, and I also think it is wrong to ignore the message being given if it actually comes from the Holy Spirit. Both are wrong and both should be avoided. But the question on the table, I think, is which one did Paul have in mind when he penned 1The. 5:19-20?

[Slug1]

No, I don't agree. This isn't a matter of semantics. There remains a meaningful distinction between our views. So then, without placing a value judgment on either view, let me summarize the difference. I will not recommend my view but try to be fair to each one.

As I see it there are two ways (at least two) to interpret Paul's exhortation.

1. Disallow the Holy Spirit from doing miracles:

If this is what Paul meant, then "quench the Holy Spirit" means to "disallow" the Holy Spirit to act. His concern is that the Thessalonians might encounter supernatural actions of the Holy Spirit and discourage future supernatural encounters. When Paul exhorts the Thessalonians to not quench the Spirit, he indicates his intent as "do not despise prophetic utterances." If Paul meant "prevent" as in "do not prevent the Holy Spirit", then the phrase "do not despise prophetic utterances" would indicate same thing only in different words but only to add the motive as to why someone might disallow them. One might look down on those who manifest the Holy Spirit and treat them with contempt, because they have rejected the process altogether. This is how many today understand this passage, I think. Do not stop or prevent the Holy Spirit from acting out of your sense of contempt for such things.

2. ignore the message the Holy Spirit brings.

If this is what Paul meant, then quenching the Holy Spirit takes place when someone finds no value or worth in what the Holy Spirit has to say. His concern is that the Thessalonians might dismiss the message given to the apostles and prophets, which is why he follows his exhortation with the statement, "do not despise prophetic utterances." In this interpretation, the verb "despise" means "reject" on the basis that what was uttered has no value. He assumes that the prophetic utterances are being allowed to take place, but he also knows that people reject the word being given.

So, there is a meaningful distinction between our two interpretations. But don't get me wrong. I think both are wrong. That is, I think that it is unrighteous to disallow the practice of the gifts, and I also think it is wrong to ignore the message being given if it actually comes from the Holy Spirit. Both are wrong and both should be avoided. But the question on the table, I think, is which one did Paul have in mind when he penned 1The. 5:19-20?

OK... I said that this is understandable from the get go when you first explained your position.

So, when the Holy Spirit DOES prompt a person to do anything... be it as simple as to wear a blue shirt to church or to give $50 to a person, to a supernatural extreme where God wants to heal a person so that He may be glorified, and the person to layon of hands chooses NOT to be obedient... when the Holy Spirit's prompting is DENIED, what is this?

Or can we simply agree that this is "disobedience". Whether the term "quench", "ignore", "deny", "forego" etc is used... the end result is God's will is not to be done THROUGH the person who will NOT allow the Holy Spirit to "move", "manifest" etc??

[BroRog]

OK... I said that this is understandable from the get go when you first explained your position.

So, when the Holy Spirit DOES prompt a person to do anything... be it as simple as to wear a blue shirt to church or to give $50 to a person, to a supernatural extreme where God wants to heal a person so that He may be glorified, and the person to layon of hands chooses NOT to be obedient... when the Holy Spirit's prompting is DENIED, what is this?

Or can we simply agree that this is "disobedience". Whether the term "quench", "ignore", "deny", "forego" etc is used... the end result is God's will is not to be done THROUGH the person who will NOT allow the Holy Spirit to "move", "manifest" etc??

I don't know. Disobedience I guess.

[Slug1]

I don't know. Disobedience I guess.

"I guess"???

Seems that many in the Body of Christ don't even realize this problem is happening.

This is a SERIOUS problem within the Body of Christ today. WHOLE churches follow doctrines, rituals, traditions etc that MAKE THEM disobedient to God because they would rather NOT be disobedient to what they are taught by their church.

The Bible warns us of all this false teaching yet what do many in the Body of Christ do? They DEFEND what they are taught which is nothing more than an attempt to justify their disobedience. They also DEFEND their rituals and traditions despite the truth that they are being MADE to be disobedient to God as a result.

As you raised in one of your posts that there are either scholastic and/or full participation church bodies out there in the world. Well, this disobedience problem is in BOTH!!

[divaD]

This is a SERIOUS problem within the Body of Christ today. WHOLE churches follow doctrines, rituals, traditions etc that MAKE THEM disobedient to God because they would rather NOT be disobedient to what they are taught by their church.

Would the point then be, since you made it a point to say 'WHOLE churches', that if a whole church is neither Pentecostal nor charismatic, this is why there is a SERIOUS problem as you put it? In your mind, do you think all churches, whole churches, that each should have a little Pentecostal and or charismatic mixed in?
Maybe I'm just reading you wrong, but your posts give the impression that you're kinda' dissing any church not Pentecostal nor charismatic. Why can't there be a balance somewhere? Why does the entire body of Christ need to be like you envision them to be? Why does the entire body of Christ need to be focused on spiritual gifts? If two different churches are part of the body of Christ, and if one specializes in the the gifts of the Spirit, and the other one doesn't, I just don't see the problem. Maybe God is just trying to do something different with each one, while one church might attract a certain type of person, another church might attract an an entirely different type of person, and had it not been for the other church being there, maybe this person wouldn't have went to any church at all.

[Slug1]

Would the point then be, since you made it a point to say 'WHOLE churches', that if a whole church is neither Pentecostal nor charismatic, this is why there is a SERIOUS problem as you put it? In your mind, do you think all churches, whole churches, that each should have a little Pentecostal and or charismatic mixed in?

Define Pentecostal and/or Charismatic then?

I said to BroRog that BOTH scholastic and/or full participation churches have doctrine/rituals/traditions that MAKE them disobeident to God as they justify themselves and will rather hold to what they are taught, so they are NOT disobedient... to such teachings.

If two different churches are part of the body of Christ, and if one specializes in the the gifts of the Spirit, and the other one doesn't, I just don't see the problem.

Here is an example of the problem... the Bible teaches that ALL in the Body of Christ are either a foot or hand, eye, nose etc.

So if one church DOES their part in responsibility due to what scripture teaches compared to another who don't DO ANY of their part responsibilities because they are "taught" God don't do that anymore... who's in disobedience?

Those doing as the scriptures teach and reveals, or those who do as they are taught by a church doctrine?

This is WHY, when the Holy Spirit prompts and some in the Body of Christ don't follow that prompting because their doctrine trumps the move of the Holy Spirit... what are they following??

[divaD]

Define Pentecostal and/or Charismatic then?

Anyone that might operate in the gifts of the Spirit. Do you know of any Pentecostal and/or Charismatic church that doesn't? When I think of either, I'm usually thinking tongues, healings, shouting out loud, dancing, etc. This doesn't mean I think there is anything wrong with any of this. But if these things don't happen in another church, I don't know why that would indicate the Spirit of God is being quenched. Speaking of that, I noticed that BroRog doesn't think that quenching the Spirit has anything to do with, for example, not shouting out loud, not dancing publicly, not laying hands on the sick so that they might recover, etc. I don't know if BroRog is right or not. Being that I used to be charismatic, I recall understanding quenching the Spirit pretty much the same way you do. Currently tho, I'm not certain what all quenching the Spirit could entail.

I said to BroRog that BOTH scholastic and/or full participation churches have doctrine/rituals/traditions that MAKE them disobeident to God as they justify themselves and will rather hold to what they are taught, so they are NOT disobedient... to such teachings.

Here is an example of the problem... the Bible teaches that ALL in the Body of Christ are either a foot or hand, eye, nose etc.

So if one church DOES their part in responsibility due to what scripture teaches compared to another who don't DO ANY of their part responsibilities because they are "taught" God don't do that anymore... who's in disobedience?

This is a valid argument on your part. I clearly see your point. Perhaps then, no one really has the right to claim God doesn't do these things anymore. But just because someone else might think God no longer does these things, does that then make them disobedient? Is it 100% required by God that every member of the body of Christ has to operate in at least one of the gifts, otherwise they're being disibedient if they don't?

This is WHY, when the Holy Spirit prompts and some in the Body of Christ don't follow that prompting because their doctrine trumps the move of the Holy Spirit... what are they following??

Do be honest, I don't know how God would be looking at this. But I will offer this. Suppose that some in the body of Christ don't follow that prompting because their doctrine trumps the move of the Holy Spirit, according to you, yet they help feed the poor, visit those in prison, etc. OTOH, let's suppose one's doctrine doesn't have them bound, and that when the Holy Spirit prompts, they act accordingly, but they don't help feed the poor, nor visit those in jail, etc. In this scenario, I think God would have more of an issue with the latter, than with the former. But of course, if the latter did both, where when prompted, they acted accordingly, and that they helped to feed the poor, etc, then I don't see God taking any issues at all with them. My point is, helping to feed the poor, etc, this is something major in God's eyes, since Matt 25 indicates some will be cast into the LOF for failing to do so.

BTW, I'm always sincerely interested in your perspective. So hopefully I'm not coming off the wrong way here. I'm honestly not trying to be argumentative.

[Colight]

OK... I said that this is understandable from the get go when you first explained your position.

So, when the Holy Spirit DOES prompt a person to do anything... be it as simple as to wear a blue shirt to church or to give $50 to a person, to a supernatural extreme where God wants to heal a person so that He may be glorified, and the person to layon of hands chooses NOT to be obedient... when the Holy Spirit's prompting is DENIED, what is this?

Or can we simply agree that this is "disobedience". Whether the term "quench", "ignore", "deny", "forego" etc is used... the end result is God's will is not to be done THROUGH the person who will NOT allow the Holy Spirit to "move", "manifest" etc??

Hi yah Slug1..
TIme to toss some coals in the fire..

I would disagree with the "Prompting" as you have defined it.
And would reject it as human works..

The spirit works thru truth and doctrine.
If you can show wearing blue is thru a doctrine or giving $50 to a certain person, then you may have a case.

[BroRog]

"I guess"???

Seems that many in the Body of Christ don't even realize this problem is happening.

This is a SERIOUS problem within the Body of Christ today. WHOLE churches follow doctrines, rituals, traditions etc that MAKE THEM disobedient to God because they would rather NOT be disobedient to what they are taught by their church.

The Bible warns us of all this false teaching yet what do many in the Body of Christ do? They DEFEND what they are taught which is nothing more than an attempt to justify their disobedience. They also DEFEND their rituals and traditions despite the truth that they are being MADE to be disobedient to God as a result.

As you raised in one of your posts that there are either scholastic and/or full participation church bodies out there in the world. Well, this disobedience problem is in BOTH!!

At this point all I can do is speak about my personal experience, which is to say that our church service is the scholastic style, with the exception that the pulpit is at ground level. Our service consists of the following activities: 1.) we sing three hymns. 2.) a microphone is passed among those attending, giving each of an opportunity to speak. The content is not restricted. We can say anything we want. Some of us thank God for things, others ask for prayer, some make announcements, others introduce themselves. If the Spirit wanted to move among us in a visible way, this would be the time to do it. We have complete freedom to say anything we want. 3.) at the end of that time, the person at the podium prays for those who asked for prayer while we pray along in agreement and he prays for God to bless us in general and to open our ears to the message. 4.) Our teacher for the week explicates the passage at hand. Our church believes that the Bible should be understood in context so the teacher chooses a letter or a gospel and teaches through the entire letter or gospel, teaching paragraphs of text rather than single verses. When he is finished, he dismisses the group or he offers a final prayer before dismissing the group.

That's about it. The service is uncomplicated; it has a simple structure everyone anticipates and yet it is open enough to be flexible if the situation should arise. The main emphasis is on teaching, but not restricted solely to teaching. We do it this way, not because someone dictated it, but because it works for us. We don't think or teach that there is THE way church should be done, but we have simply found a service style that allows us to serve each other the best way we know how.

In all this time and with all this freedom and with all the time we devote to group participation, I have never seen anyone perform a healing, or give a word of knowledge, or speak in tongues, or anything else typically associated with the charismatic service. But mind you, this is NOT because our church restricts its members. And if I see a healing today at church, I would be pleased and amazed and thankful and glorify God. All of us would. We are not negative concerning the manifestations of the Spirit and the Holy Spirit is as free to express himself in our service as the rest of us. Everything is natural, organic, and spontaneous during the prayer-sharing time and if someone wanted to give a prophetic utterance, or a word of knowledge, or speak in tongues or heal someone or whatever, they would be allowed to do this without hesitation or restriction. However you want to define quenching the Spirit, we are not doing either one. The Spirit is free to move however he wants and so are we.

If you all want to organize your service that way, then by all means, do it. But I'm not going to tell anyone what to do. All I know is this. The Spirit must move in the hearts of believers before he can move overtly through manifestations. And for this reason, the only effective way that I know, to change a church, is to pray for its members and to submit myself to the Lord in humility and gratitude.

And I wish you and your church the greatest blessing from the Lord. Amen.

[Slug1]

Hi yah Slug1..
TIme to toss some coals in the fire..

I expect nothing less from you when the topic concerns listening to the Holy Spirit.

I would disagree with the "Prompting" as you have defined it.

Hooah, I'll post scripture in a short moment to show us how the Holy Spirit leads, prompts and empowers so that SCRIPTURE defines that the Holy Spirit DOES do this. Even just as important is that those who ARE led, prompted, empowered... are obedient too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Even should questions be raised up to God, they are still obedient.

And would reject it as human works..

Why?

The spirit works thru truth and doctrine.

Define truth and doctrine from a "Biblical" standpoint... not any church or denominational standpoint.

If you can show wearing blue is thru a doctrine or giving $50 to a certain person, then you may have a case.

This is the easiest challenge you've offered.

First... if you are saying that the words, "wear blue" or "give $50" must be in the Bible... then this will be a game for you to exploit. However, should you be willing to accept that in the Bible the character of God to have the Holy Spirit prompt people to DO tasks that may even sound CRAZY... IS in God's character, then as I said, this is an easy challenge.

Let's begin with one of the more WELL KNOWN promptings from the Holy Spirit that led even Jesus to do something that can be considered, NUTS!

Luke 4:1 Then Jesus, being filled with the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit into[a] the wilderness,

Here we find that the Holy Spirit prompts Jesus to go into the wilderness! So... what doctrine is this? Since you made the statement: The spirit works thru truth and doctrine.

I'm gonna pick random promptings by the Holy Spirit upon many in the Bible... no particular order, just as they come to me, I'll add them till there is enough scripture to show you that the Holy Spirit PROMPTS people to DO things and that for the Holy Spirit to prompt a person to "wear Blue" is NOT a human work. This is not saying that wearing blue CAN'T be a human work... because it can. Scripture will show that something as random as wearing blue, CAN be a prompting from the Holy Spirit.

OK... lets go to Paul:

Acts 16:6 Now when they had gone through Phrygia and the region of Galatia, they were forbidden by the Holy Spirit to preach the word in Asia. 7 After they had come to Mysia, they tried to go into Bithynia, but the Spirit[a] did not permit them.

Here is the opposite, the Holy Spirit prompts NOT to do something. So... what doctrine is this? Since you made the statement: The spirit works thru truth and doctrine.

Cornelius and Peter:

Acts 10:5 Now send men to Joppa, and send for Simon whose surname is Peter.

Acts 10:19 While Peter thought about the vision, the Spirit said to him, “Behold, three men are seeking you. 20 Arise therefore, go down and go with them, doubting nothing; for I have sent them.”

So... what doctrine is this? Since you made the statement: The spirit works thru truth and doctrine.

Let's see... Phillip:

Acts 8:29 Then the Spirit said to Philip, “Go near and overtake this chariot.”

30 So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?”

So... what doctrine is this? Since you made the statement: The spirit works thru truth and doctrine.

Ananias... I raise this example because all throughout this thread, I have also raised about being prompted by the Holy Spirit to go to a person and lay on of hands.

Acts 9:10 Now there was a certain disciple at Damascus named Ananias; and to him the Lord said in a vision, “Ananias.”

And he said, “Here I am, Lord.”

11 So the Lord said to him, “Arise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for one called Saul of Tarsus, for behold, he is praying. 12 And in a vision he has seen a man named Ananias coming in and putting his hand on him, so that he might receive his sight.”

So... what doctrine is this? Since you made the statement: The spirit works thru truth and doctrine.

Evan an example from the OT comes upon my spirit to relay to you:


Jeremiah 13:1 Thus the Lord said to me: “Go and get yourself a linen sash, and put it around your waist, but do not put it in water.” 2 So I got a sash according to the word of the Lord, and put it around my waist.

3 And the word of the Lord came to me the second time, saying, 4 “Take the sash that you acquired, which is around your waist, and arise, go to the Euphrates,[a] and hide it there in a hole in the rock.” 5 So I went and hid it by the Euphrates, as the Lord commanded me.

The Holy Spirit speaks to US ALL, prompts US ALL, empowers US ALL... as God gives His will to us.

Tell me... here is a portion of my testimony where a "child" was prompted by the Holy Spirit to draw me a picture in answer to a silent prayer that I prayed just the night prior. A "child" was used and was obedient... what doctrine was the child "following" in a way to be used to answer a SILENT prayer that I prayer to God??? This child was only 1 of 3 answers I received that morning at church. Also, the other 2 answers from God that He gave me "through" others??

They ALL were prompted and led by the Holy Spirit.

Of course her words sank in and I silently prayed that night and at first I was doing nothing but continuing my complaint, to God. I know He listens but I also knew I was saying words in the flesh. I asked for forgiveness of this and then began to explain why I was frustrated, why I felt the way I did, ensured Him I’d do as He willed but I wanted to feel that this was His will. I also reminded Him the way that I need to be told. I have a blog that is called, “By Avalanche and Bullhorn” cause He needs to hit me with it and speak loud. I went Gideon on God that night and I actually asked God to put an answer in my hands and I asked this in Jesus’ name and said, Amen.

The next day was Sunday and a busy morning to get ready for church cause I got up so late. I didn’t get to do my normal stuff like “pray”, eat, check email etc. When I got to church I went downstairs and had a free moment. I checked my email and found an email from a friend of mine… they had, had a dream that same Saturday night, that involved me and the Worship Team… as I read this email and due to the information from the dream, I realized that this was an answer to my prayer. What I didn’t know, was that it was the first of three answers that the Lord would bless me with to inform me of His will and that He was going to answer in a way that would leave no doubt. I silently pray a thank you, to God at this answer.

Later when I prayed with the Worship Team before the service started I received my second answer. The moment I recognized that answer I again silently praised and thanked God. Then during the service one of the youth in church came up to me… now bear in mind, even though my wife and I knew that we were to be the Youth Ministers we had not been placed yet. This child handed me a drawing that they had done and had colored and told me that this was for me and she turned around and went back to her seat. I stood there looking at this drawing in my hands and just cried as I held “in my hands” answer number three to my prayer from the night before. As I cried, the Lord ministered to me that this was all in answer to my prayer.

The drawing is now framed so I can look at it anytime I feel doubt or frustration and I give the glory to God as I step in faith wherever, whenever, however, in any direction that the Lord leads me.

Thank you!

If you desire more examples, the Bible is FULL of them where the Holy Spirit leads, prompts, empowers... etc.

Just as He continues... today!

[amazzin]

Be nice

Hi yah Slug1..
TIme to toss some coals in the fire..

I would disagree with the "Prompting" as you have defined it.
And would reject it as human works..

The spirit works thru truth and doctrine.
If you can show wearing blue is thru a doctrine or giving $50 to a certain person, then you may have a case.

[Boo]

The problems start when people's emotions become their prompting and the Holy Spirit gets the blame.

[Watchman]

The problems start when people's emotions become their prompting and the Holy Spirit gets the blame.

I agree much of what is attributed to the Holy Spirit is solely the expression of human emotion and is prompted by self. I also know that emotion is how we express our feelings. How does one tell the difference between emotional expression prompted by the Holy Spirit and emotional expression prompted by ourselves alone?

W

[Slug1]

Yes... when one does rejoice in the "Spirit"... how is it to look like to those who do not rejoice in the Spirit? When the Holy Spirit does move a person in such ways, do people care more about what they "look" like to others or do they not care what others think and simply surrender to the Holy Spirit?

[Slug1]

Everything is natural, organic, and spontaneous during the prayer-sharing time and if someone wanted to give a prophetic utterance, or a word of knowledge, or speak in tongues or heal someone or whatever, they would be allowed to do this without hesitation or restriction. However you want to define quenching the Spirit, we are not doing either one. The Spirit is free to move however he wants and so are we.

When anyone in the church wants to put James 5:14 into action... do they do this during the service as an altar call period is done? Or do they contact the elders privately and when the elders do pray over them in a private setting, should God heal the person... the testimony is given during #2 during your service? Based on what you wrote in the quoted portion, can people do this at any time during the service?

Should any of the elders be prompted BY the Holy Spirit to anoint and layon of hands during the service... do they do this during any random portion of the service? Or is there a period of time like an altar call given to the elders and ministers of the church for such prayer and laying on of hands?

When there is an altar call... can it be at ANY moment/during the service period when the Holy Spirit prompts the pastor that it is time? I ask this because from experience, when the Holy Spirit does begin to move the pastor/elders/ministers to begin praying over people, it's been at the beginning of a service, during worship, before the sermon, after the sermon, while the sermon is given... the Holy Spirit moves as God wills and has not been restricted to a set time during service. Due to this... some services are 2 hours, or 3, 4, BASED on how the Holy Spirit is moving.