Has God Already Written His Law on Our Hearts and Minds? What Does that Look Like?

[Eyelog]

Hebrews 10:16
“ THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:

I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART,

AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM,”

Please write whatever insight you have about this issue, quoting as much Scripture as is helpful.

[episkopos]

Please write whatever insight you have about this issue, quoting as much Scripture as is helpful.

Those who are born from above have God's law written on their hearts. The love of God constrains us.

Rom_8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

[Watchman]

2 Corinthians 3:3 ...clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.

Our hearts have written upon them letters of Christ, the sinless One, who did nothing but what He saw our Father doing. This doesn't explicitly say "God's law", but since love fulfills the law of Christ, and since God IS love, the implication is clear, to me at least, that this epistle is God's law.

blessings,

Watchman

[Walls]

Please write whatever insight you have about this issue, quoting as much Scripture as is helpful.

Hi Eyelog, we meet again.

I think we've been at this on another thread. Good subject. There are only two basic ways of handling scripture, and every student of scripture falls into one of the categories, with some small variations. One either takes the bible literally except where it is obviously a picture, parable, type or sign, OR one tries to apply an allegorical sense to everything.

If one takes the bible literally, Israel were God's people of old, and the Hebrew prophets, prophesying in Hebrew, to a Hebrew nation, predicted that God would not indefinitely chastise them and one day restore them to their Promised Land. This goodness of God is based on His promises to Abraham. The reason that Israel could enter their Land as promised, but not stay in it, was that their Covenant of LAW at SINAI was broken. This Law was written on tables of stone. It was exterior to man and because of man's innate falleness, he was unable to keep these Laws. According to Deuteronomy 30:1-10, the reason God will restore Israel back to its Land AFTER the dispersion, is that a remnant will turn back to the Law, which Moses gave "that day" (verse 2).

Many years later Jeremiah, prophesying on the threshold of Judah's defeat and captivity to Babylon, prophesied that in the day of restoration of Israel, God would make a New Covenant with Israel (ten northern tribes) and Judah (two southern tribes) because the Old Covenant written on stone was ineffectual. This is found in Chapter 31.

The author of the book of Hebrews has never been proved without a doubt, but this author wrote to the Hebrew believers in the dispersion. It would be natural after taking such lengths to show Christ's superiority over Moses, Aaron and the angels, to remind these Hebrew believers what the ultimate destiny if their compatriots would be. So in Chapter 8 the author of Hebrews re-iterated Jeremiah's prophecy verbatim.

This New Covenant was to be a Covenant of LAW, not written on stones as before, but onto their hearts, as Moses predicted in Deuteronomy 30 verse 6. In this way, God would preclude any chance of Israel breaking His Laws again and being cast out again. The New Covenant is with restored Israel, still future, and will be one of LAW.

If one takes the allegorical approach to scripture the prophesies of Jeremiah can be anything, because the allegorical approach depends on the view of the reader and not plain language. But in reality, most bible students with the allegorical approach would take the prophecy of Jeremiah to mean the Church. In this however, they create problems. Some of these problems are;

• If the Church is to receive a New Covenant of LAW, where was their Old one? (In the use of language you cannot get a new thing to replace and old one that you didn't have.)
• A Covenant always has two sides. Each party is expected to keep their side. If the New Covenant belonged to the Church, what is God's side and what is the believer's side (with scriptures please).
• If Israel is to become the Church in prophecy, who then is Judah (and vise versa)?
• Various Books of the New Testament, especially Romans, Galatians and Colossians, make quite clear that there is no justification of Church members by the LAW.
• The New Testament teaches clearly that Christ dwells in us and that we are under the Law of Life in Christ Jesus, not that of any Covenant (Rom.8:2).
• The New Testament teaches that by Christ's death we (the Church) are "dead" to the Law (Rom.7:4).
• The New Testament teaches that if any Christian puts him/herself under Law, Christ becomes "of no effect" to that Christian (Gal.5:4).

Of course, there is a way out of all these problems. The Holy Spirit, inspiring Jeremiah, must be accused of not meaning what He said. So too must the Holy Spirit be accused, while inspiring Paul, not to mean what He said. I do not mean to be sarcastic, but this is what it finally boils down to.

What say ye all? Maybe someone can show us the difference between having Christ dwelling our spirits, and Laws dwelling in a Jew's heart. It might take us all the way back to the Tree of Life.

[fewarechosen]

Holy Spirit

Heb_8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:


Rom_8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

2Co_3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

His people have the Spirit.

Without the Holy Spirit one cannot interpret scripture because its the Holy Spirit that discernes it. Pharisees abound much more now.

[Rookie78]

I'm not sure just speculation, but in the verse that follows the old testament quote (Jer. 31:34), it says that no one will have to ask anyone to "know the Lord". To me, that would mean no more witnessing so it seems that this would be in the millennial kingdom after the redemption of our bodies. In the meantime, we have the Holy Spirit which is our earnest until that time.

[John 8:32]

Wouldn't the appropriate place to start here be "What is the law of God?" Does God tell us? Does it change? Who determines what the law of God is?

[John146]

If one takes the allegorical approach to scripture the prophesies of Jeremiah can be anything, because the allegorical approach depends on the view of the reader and not plain language. But in reality, most bible students with the allegorical approach would take the prophecy of Jeremiah to mean the Church. In this however, they create problems. Some of these problems are;

[LIST][*]If the Church is to receive a New Covenant of LAW, where was their Old one? (In the use of language you cannot get a new thing to replace and old one that you didn't have.)

I don't take the references to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 to be an allegorical representation of the church, but I do believe that Gentile believers have graciously been included in the new covenant along with believers of the house of Israel and house of Judah. That Gentiles have graciously been allowed to be part of the new covenant does not mean they had to also have been included in the old covenant.

[*]A Covenant always has two sides. Each party is expected to keep their side. If the New Covenant belonged to the Church, what is God's side and what is the believer's side (with scriptures please).

God's side of the new covenant was to send His Son to die for the sins of the world. The believer's side is to put his or her faith and trust in the Son.

Matt 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; 28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;21 And having an high priest over the house of God;22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Passages like these make it clear that the new covenant is all about Christ shedding His blood for our sins. We know that He did not shed His sins only for Israel and Judah, but also for the Gentiles. The new covenant has to do with the Holy Spirit coming to dwell in our hearts and giving us the strength to follow God's law by loving God with all our heart, soul and mind and loving our neighbors as ourselves. The new covenant has to do with us "having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience". The old (first) covenant was made obsolete long ago (Heb 8:13) and was replaced by the new (second) covenant. It says "He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all". The blood of Jesus Christ put the new covenant into effect. How can anyone say it is not yet in effect? Yes, it most certainly is. If it isn't then none of our sins have been forgiven because the new covenant is the only means by which one's sins are forgiven and removed.

[*]If Israel is to become the Church in prophecy, who then is Judah (and vise versa)?

The nation of Israel isn't the church, but the new covenant was expanded to include Gentile believers. Just read Ephesians 2:11-22. Gentiles were once "strangers from the covenants of promise" (Eph 2:12) but now because of the blood of Christ "are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens" (Eph 2:19) with Jewish believers. The new covenant was originally made with Israel and Judah but now, because of the blood of Christ, Gentiles share in the new covenant with believers of the house of Israel and house of Judah.

[*]Various Books of the New Testament, especially Romans, Galatians and Colossians, make quite clear that there is no justification of Church members by the LAW.

Those are referring to the law of Moses. There is no justification for ANYONE by the law of Moses. The new covenant has nothing to do with the law of Moses. The law of Moses relates to the old covenant and was made obsolete long ago (Heb 8:13).

Acts 13:37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption. 38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

[*]The New Testament teaches clearly that Christ dwells in us and that we are under the Law of Life in Christ Jesus, not that of any Covenant (Rom.8:2).

That verse does not say that we are not under any covenant, it says we are made free from "the law of sin and death" by "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus".

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

The law of God that is written on our hearts is "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus".

[*]The New Testament teaches that by Christ's death we (the Church) are "dead" to the Law (Rom.7:4).

Again, that is referring to the obsolete old covenant law of Moses, not the new covenant law of God that is written on our hearts and teaches us to love God with all our heart, soul and mind and to love our neighbors as ourselves.

[*]The New Testament teaches that if any Christian puts him/herself under Law, Christ becomes "of no effect" to that Christian (Gal.5:4).

Once again, that is referring specifically to the law of Moses, not the law of God. We are under the law of Christ so Gal 5:4 can't possibly be saying that we can't be under any law.

Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. 2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

Of course, there is a way out of all these problems. The Holy Spirit, inspiring Jeremiah, must be accused of not meaning what He said.

No, He meant what He said but I don't think you understand what He said properly.

So too must the Holy Spirit be accused, while inspiring Paul, not to mean what He said.

The Holy Spirit always meant what He said while inspiring Paul but we don't always agree on what He meant to say. You make scripture out to be as simple as reading the newspaper but that just isn't the case. Sometimes scripture is straightforward and literal and sometimes it is not. It requires spiritual discernment to tell the difference in any given verse or passage.

[fewarechosen]

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

1Jn_2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.


Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

I saw some thoughts referencing this.

that promise is the promise of the spirit, its a promise made to Israel the True Israel, not the israel that the pharisees were party to.

the reason they dont teach eachother is because the Holy Spirit teaches them, its written in their heart they have need of no man to teach them. Thats the tie in to those two scriptures. the sin an iniquities is tie in to other.

[divaD]

the reason they dont teach eachother is because the Holy Spirit teaches them, its written in their heart they have need of no man to teach them. Thats the tie in to those two scriptures. the sin an iniquities is tie in to other.

So why do we still have teachers then? Are all these teachers, false teachers?

[John146]

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

1Jn_2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.


Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

I saw some thoughts referencing this.

that promise is the promise of the spirit, its a promise made to Israel the True Israel, not the israel that the pharisees were party to.

the reason they dont teach eachother is because the Holy Spirit teaches them, its written in their heart they have need of no man to teach them. Thats the tie in to those two scriptures. the sin an iniquities is tie in to other.

Good post. I can see the connection between 1 John 2:27 and Jer 31:34. Good find there.

[John146]

So why do we still have teachers then? Are all these teachers, false teachers?

No, not all teachers are false teachers. The spiritual gift of teaching is not obsolete. But when you are taught by someone who has that gift it is really the Holy Spirit teaching you and not the teacher himself because the Holy Spirit reveals the truth to the teacher and gives him the wisdom and discernment he needs in order to teach. So, I believe 1 John 2:27 not only means that we can receive teaching directly from the Holy Spirit since He dwells in us but also that we can receive teaching from the Holy Spirit through people who have the gift of teaching. Either way, it's the Holy Spirit who is teaching us rather than things that are just coming from the imaginations of men rather than from God. Notice how Paul gives full credit to the Holy Spirit for his teaching:

1 Cor 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

[Ceegen]

Please write whatever insight you have about this issue, quoting as much Scripture as is helpful. :)

Romans chapter two explains this idea of God's law being written into us from our creation, and proves that both Gentile and Jew are under the laws of God, and co-inheritors of heaven.

Romans 2:
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

The laws of God were written into the hearts of all mankind, that out of the order of law rose secular government and morality, which they refuse to believe exists... Is a testament to itself. The evil and unjust, justify their evil in their own hearts, and in the process prove that the bible is true. They become sinners under their own law of morality, by refusing to accept where the "absolute moral code" they base theirs off of, came from: God!

We are without excuse!

[Walls]

I don't take the references to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34 to be an allegorical representation of the church, but I do believe that Gentile believers have graciously been included in the new covenant along with believers of the house of Israel and house of Judah. That Gentiles have graciously been allowed to be part of the new covenant does not mean they had to also have been included in the old covenant.

For this to be true, Israel and Judah must already have been restored and returned to their Land. But opposite is true. Vastly more Jews still live among the nations than in the State of Israel.

God's side of the new covenant was to send His Son to die for the sins of the world. The believer's side is to put his or her faith and trust in the Son.

I did request verses for this one, but I grant you your right to withhold them.

Matt 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; 28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Every covenant from Abraham on was ratified in blood. The New Covenant is ratified in Christ's blood. That a time can pass between ratification and execution is seen by the Covenant to Abraham. It is ratified 430 years before that of Sinai, yet Acts 7:5 and Hebrews 11:13 clearly state that Abraham has not yet received his side of the covenant - a period of around 4'000 years. So the approximately 2'000 years that Israel has to wait for their New Covenant to be executed is only half of that.

Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;21 And having an high priest over the house of God;22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Notice the author of Hebrews making a difference between "us" (the Church) in verse 15, and "them" (Israel) in verse 14, 16 and 17, and then returning to "us" in verse 19 (by implication -"brethren"), 20 and 22.

Passages like these make it clear that the new covenant is all about Christ shedding His blood for our sins.

The blood of Christ ratifies the New Covenant with Israel and Judah (as per Jeremiah). The blood of Christ is shed for the sins of the world. This would encompass Jew and Gentile. Notice the two things concerning the blood. (1) This is the New Testament in my blood, (2) which (blood) is shed for you. There are two things. The shedding of blood "for you" is for sins. In the shedding of blood for the previous covenant, the blood is shed for ratification before God and does not apply for sins.

We know that He did not shed His sins only for Israel and Judah, but also for the Gentiles.

Agreed,
but...

The new covenant has to do with the Holy Spirit coming to dwell in our hearts and giving us the strength to follow God's law by loving God with all our heart, soul and mind and loving our neighbors as ourselves. The new covenant has to do with us "having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience".

The subject changed from the Covenant in verse 9 to the "offerings" from 10 onwards. The covenant does none of those things the offerings do. The covenant is an agreement by two sides, with conditions, for profit of both sides. Offerings are for atonement, propitiation and substitution which things you and I have no part of.

The old (first) covenant was made obsolete long ago (Heb 8:13) and was replaced by the new (second) covenant. It says "He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all". The blood of Jesus Christ put the new covenant into effect. How can anyone say it is not yet in effect? Yes, it most certainly is. If it isn't then none of our sins have been forgiven because the new covenant is the only means by which one's sins are forgiven and removed.

Your use of the past tense concerning the New Covenant presents a problem. Israel and Judah are neither yet united nor restored to their Land. Added to this you should have shown some verse which said it has been put into effect. The Covenant with Abraham waited about 470 years (430 years for Sinai plus another 38 years wandering in the wilderness) till his seed went into the Land. But the covenant was with Abraham and his seed, but while his seed were given the Land, Abraham did not receive it. Scripture say that he was a stranger in this Land (Heb.11:13). Abraham is still waiting (now about 4'000 years). Not only are there no verses that say the New Covenant is in effect, but the author of Hebrews still talks of it as future.

The nation of Israel isn't the church, but the new covenant was expanded to include Gentile believers. Just read Ephesians 2:11-22. Gentiles were once "strangers from the covenants of promise" (Eph 2:12) but now because of the blood of Christ "are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens" (Eph 2:19) with Jewish believers. The new covenant was originally made with Israel and Judah but now, because of the blood of Christ, Gentiles share in the new covenant with believers of the house of Israel and house of Judah.

Like others, you have given verses that speak of the "Covenants of Promise." There are two sets of Covenants according to Galatians 3:15-18, "Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. 16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise." One of PROMISE and one of LAW - 430 years apart. And this passage clearly says that (1) that of promise is not annulled by the Covenant of Sinai, and (2) the inheritance is not by LAW but by promise. However, the Covenant that waxed old was the one of LAW, and the New Covenant is one of LAW.

The Church is made beneficiary of the Covenant of PROMISE by virtue of being "in" Christ, a seed of Abraham (verse 29 of the same Chapter).

Those are referring to the law of Moses. There is no justification for ANYONE by the law of Moses. The new covenant has nothing to do with the law of Moses. The law of Moses relates to the old covenant and was made obsolete long ago (Heb 8:13).

My bible reads that they New Covenant is a Covenant of LAW. "I will put my LAWS into their mind, and write them in their hearts:Heb 8:10)

That verse does not say that we are not under any covenant, it says we are made free from "the law of sin and death" by "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus".

The use of the double negative is not an argument. With the double negative you can establish just about everything.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

The law of God that is written on our hearts is "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus".

The beginning of Chapter 8 is a continuation of Chapter 7. Chapter 7 is the context and verse 9; "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died" (Romans 7:9). Is this not the Law of Sin and Death?

Again, that is referring to the obsolete old covenant law of Moses, not the new covenant law of God that is written on our hearts and teaches us to love God with all our heart, soul and mind and to love our neighbors as ourselves.

Once again, that is referring specifically to the law of Moses, not the law of God. We are under the law of Christ so Gal 5:4 can't possibly be saying that we can't be under any law.

Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. 2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

No, He meant what He said but I don't think you understand what He said properly.

The Holy Spirit always meant what He said while inspiring Paul but we don't always agree on what He meant to say. You make scripture out to be as simple as reading the newspaper but that just isn't the case. Sometimes scripture is straightforward and literal and sometimes it is not. It requires spiritual discernment to tell the difference in any given verse or passage.

This true. I'm sorry if I gave the impression of reading scripture like a newspaper. But have you noticed how simple it can be when we read the grammar accurately. However, I grant you your stand on Israel and Judah and the inclusion of the Church in that prophecy. It has allowed the diverse arguments to be presented to the other readers. I think this was the purpose of the thread.

God bless

[John146]

For this to be true, Israel and Judah must already have been restored and returned to their Land. But opposite is true. Vastly more Jews still live among the nations than in the State of Israel.

I completely disagree. Scripture is clear that the new covenant has everything to do with Jesus Christ shedding His blood for the sins of the world. His shed blood put the new covenant into effect. I believe you need to do a prayerful study of the book of Hebrews and learn the difference between the old and new covenants.

I did request verses for this one, but I grant you your right to withhold them.

Are you kidding me? What do you call Matthew 26:27-28 and Hebrews 10:9-21? Those are verses.

Every covenant from Abraham on was ratified in blood. The New Covenant is ratified in Christ's blood. That a time can pass between ratification and execution is seen by the Covenant to Abraham. It is ratified 430 years before that of Sinai, yet Acts 7:5 and Hebrews 11:13 clearly state that Abraham has not yet received his side of the covenant - a period of around 4'000 years. So the approximately 2'000 years that Israel has to wait for their New Covenant to be executed is only half of that.

His blood provides for the forgiveness and washing away of sins. Has no one yet had their sins forgiven and washed away by Christ's blood? Your argument are completely unconvincing. The new covenant has been in effect for a long time now.

Notice the author of Hebrews making a difference between "us" (the Church) in verse 15, and "them" (Israel) in verse 14, 16 and 17, and then returning to "us" in verse 19 (by implication -"brethren"), 20 and 22.

You're really reaching here. It says "them" because he's referring to an OT prophecy. So, the "them" that the prophecy was referring to when the prophecy was given became "us" once the prophecy was fulfilled. The entire passage is referring to Christ shedding His blood as an offering for all people to fulfill the new covenant.

The blood of Christ ratifies the New Covenant with Israel and Judah (as per Jeremiah). The blood of Christ is shed for the sins of the world. This would encompass Jew and Gentile. Notice the two things concerning the blood. (1) This is the New Testament in my blood, (2) which (blood) is shed for you. There are two things. The shedding of blood "for you" is for sins. In the shedding of blood for the previous covenant, the blood is shed for ratification before God and does not apply for sins.

Sorry, but I have no idea what you're trying to say here. I can't make any sense of it at all. The blood of Jesus Christ put the new covenant into effect. I believe the scripture couldn't be more clear about that.

Agreed,
but...

The subject changed from the Covenant in verse 9 to the "offerings" from 10 onwards. The covenant does none of those things the offerings do. The covenant is an agreement by two sides, with conditions, for profit of both sides. Offerings are for atonement, propitiation and substitution which things you and I have no part of.

Again I have no idea what you're trying to say. We benefit from the covenant because Christ's blood of the new covenant washes our sins away. Our condition of the covenant is to put our faith in Christ and His shed blood for salvation and the forgiveness of sins.

Your use of the past tense concerning the New Covenant presents a problem.

Not in scripture. Scripture says that the new covenant was established long ago. I think you need to take the time to study the book of Hebrews more closely than you ever have before because right now I believe you have very little understanding of it.

Israel and Judah are neither yet united nor restored to their Land. Added to this you should have shown some verse which said it has been put into effect. The Covenant with Abraham waited about 470 years (430 years for Sinai plus another 38 years wandering in the wilderness) till his seed went into the Land. But the covenant was with Abraham and his seed, but while his seed were given the Land, Abraham did not receive it. Scripture say that he was a stranger in this Land (Heb.11:13). Abraham is still waiting (now about 4'000 years). Not only are there no verses that say the New Covenant is in effect, but the author of Hebrews still talks of it as future.

You must be reading a different book of Hebrews than I am. The book of Hebrews I'm reading says that the new covenant was established and put into effect by Christ by way of His shed blood. Is the following not something that is true for us right now:

Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

Can we now "enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh"? Of course we can, right? What else does this "new and living way" refer to except for the new covenant? The way in which we partake of the new covenant is to "enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way". This is available to all, Jew or Gentile, and is not something we have to wait for at some point in the future.

Like others, you have given verses that speak of the "Covenants of Promise." There are two sets of Covenants according to Galatians 3:15-18, "Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. 16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise." One of PROMISE and one of LAW - 430 years apart. And this passage clearly says that (1) that of promise is not annulled by the Covenant of Sinai, and (2) the inheritance is not by LAW but by promise. However, the Covenant that waxed old was the one of LAW, and the New Covenant is one of LAW.

The new covenant is not one of the law of Moses. You continue to not understand the difference between the law of Moses and the law of God written on our hearts. They are not the same! The law of Moses is the law of the old covenant that was made obsolete. There is no basis whatsoever for equating the law that God would write on people's hearts with the law of Moses. He can't write a law that is obsolete on people's hearts. It is the law of Christ that He writes on our hearts. Do you understand the difference between the law of Christ and the law of Moses?

The Church is made beneficiary of the Covenant of PROMISE by virtue of being "in" Christ, a seed of Abraham (verse 29 of the same Chapter).

The new covenant is the covenant of promise. God promised to write His law on hearts and to forgive sins by way of the new covenant.

My bible reads that they New Covenant is a Covenant of LAW. "I will put my LAWS into their mind, and write them in their hearts:Heb 8:10)

The words of your Bible are correct. Your understanding of the Bible is flawed. Putting His laws on our hearts and being required to follow the laws of Moses are two entirely different things!

The use of the double negative is not an argument. With the double negative you can establish just about everything.

This is nonsense. Read what I said again. It makes sense grammatically and is a valid argument. It's true that the verse (Rom 8:2) does not say that we are not under any covenant. Where does it say that we are not under any covenant as you claimed? It doesn't. You say that we are not under any covenant but the verse does not say that. How is this not an argument? It is a valid argument that you apparently don't want to respond to. You made a false claim about what the verse said and I corrected you and showed you that it doesn't say anything about us not being under any covenant.

The beginning of Chapter 8 is a continuation of Chapter 7. Chapter 7 is the context and verse 9; "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died" (Romans 7:9). Is this not the Law of Sin and Death?

Yes, it is but what is your point? What is your response to my point that the law of God that is written on our hearts is "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus"?

This true. I'm sorry if I gave the impression of reading scripture like a newspaper. But have you noticed how simple it can be when we read the grammar accurately.

It isn't as simple as you try to make it out to be. In some cases scripture is quite straightforward and literal but in other cases it is not. I think you have trouble discerning the difference.

However, I grant you your stand on Israel and Judah and the inclusion of the Church in that prophecy. It has allowed the diverse arguments to be presented to the other readers. I think this was the purpose of the thread.

Fair enough.