Assurance of Salvation

[AndrewCB]

Hi everyone,



This forum is well set out and easy to use.

Also - good to see people studying God's Word.

I have some questions on assurance of salvation.

I know people say that a Christian can lose their assurance and have doubts about their salvation.

Any thoughts on the verses below?


"if indeed you continue in the faith grounded and settled and not being moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard proclaimed in all the creation under Heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister," (Col 1:23, LITV)
Is Paul saying all believers are never moved from the hope of the Good News? People that are moved from the hope are unbelievers?

"For we have become partakers of Christ, if truly we hold the beginning of the assurance firm to the end;" (Heb 3:14, LITV)
So, all believers hold the beginning of the assurance firm to the end? People without assurance are unbelievers?

"but Christ as Son over His house, whose house we are, if truly we hold fast the boldness and rejoicing of the hope firm to the end." (Heb 3:6, LITV)
Therefore, all believers hold fast the boldness and rejoicing of the hope firm to the end? People without boldness are unbelievers?


Romans 8:14 "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive a spirit of slavery again to fear, but you received a Spirit of adoption by which we cry, Abba! Father! 16 The Spirit Himself witnesses with our spirit that we are children of God."
All believers can cry Abba, father? People doubting cannot cry Abba Father, so they are unbelievers... ?

" We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one." (1 John 5:19)
All believers know they are of God? People having doubts about their salvation don't have the same faith as the Apostle John.

"but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never thirst again; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life." (John 4:14)
Believers are never thirsty? People doubting are thirsty - they are unbelievers?

"Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will not be hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty." (John 6:35)
Believers are never hungry?

"Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father, who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace," (2 Thes 2:16)
All believers have eternal comfort and a good hope?

"By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because of His Spirit He has given to us." (1 John 4:13, LITV)
All believers know they abide in Him?

"Examine yourselves, whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Or do you not yourselves perceive that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are disapproved?" (2 Cor 13:5, LITV)
All believers know Jesus is in them?

So believers cannot doubt their salvation, right?


Andrew
Florida
free free to call / friend / email me

http://facebook.com/BainAndrew

Mod Note: Personal information removed-BrianW

[Vhayes]

Hi Andrew -

First, I would advise taking down your phone number and personal information.

Second, I am a believer in eternal security but you will find many, many strong believers who are not.

I base my belief on many verses, some of which you have posted. One of the ones that speaks most strongly to me is:
I John 5
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Enjoy your time here. Looking forward to seeing you around.
V

[Everyman]

"[SIZE=2][FONT=arial]if indeed you continue in the faith grounded and settled and not being moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard proclaimed in all the creation under Heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister," (Col 1:23, LITV)

I too would recommend that you remove your personal contact information. It is pretty clear that you have heard about the once saved always saved teachings that some believe in. I don't believe in that and feel that people who are of that believe should study that issue more and more. There are ample verses in the Bible and in the early Christian writings that show the falacy of "once saved, always saved". Your verse quoted above is the perfect example of this. Paul specifically says "IF". If you don't fall away or turn away or become shipwrecked... Paul often spoke about hope and salvation. We have no way of knowing of our own salvation until we die, nor can we know if anyone elses. Those who say they are saved and think their salvation is sewn up are setting themselves up for what could be the ultimate downer. As i read your interpretations of each of the verses you quoted, I can see the way you are being lead. Get some different perspective. Read spiritual writings from other sources. Go to some other sites to see what people say about "once saved, always saved".

[chad]

Hi Andrew,

I have underlined the some parts of the verses you posted, which speak volumes. All write about living the Christian life and having hope in Christ.

Paul describes the christian life as running the race and living life lead by the Holy Spirit, Jesus called his disciples to take up their cross daily.

I have posted some more verses as well.


2 Corinthians 1:21-22.
²¹ Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, ²² set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. (NIV)

Ephesians 1:13 - 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”

Romans 6:4 - We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.


It is far better to focus on living the life in faith and running the race as best as we can. However, the bible also writes of those who depart from the faith - for various reasons.



[QUOTE=AndrewCB;2878243]Hi everyone,



"if indeed you continue in the faith grounded and settled and not being moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard proclaimed in all the creation under Heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister," (Col 1:23, LITV)

"For we have become partakers of Christ, if truly we hold the beginning of the assurance firm to the end;" (Heb 3:14, LITV)

"but Christ as Son over His house, whose house we are, if truly we hold fast the boldness and rejoicing of the hope firm to the end." (Heb 3:6, LITV)


Romans 8:14 "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive a spirit of slavery again to fear, but you received a Spirit of adoption by which we cry, Abba! Father! 16 The Spirit Himself witnesses with our spirit that we are children of God."


" We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one." (1 John 5:19)

"but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never thirst again; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life." (John 4:14)

"Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will not be hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty." (John 6:35)
Believers are never hungry?

"Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father, who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace," (2 Thes 2:16)

"By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because of His Spirit He has given to us." (1 John 4:13, LITV)

"Examine yourselves, whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Or do you not yourselves perceive that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are disapproved?" (2 Cor 13:5, LITV)

[Walls]

Hi AndrewCB

This discussion is about the most popular theme on any Forum (and might I say, in any group of Christians). It is provoked by seeming contradictory scriptures. I believe the failure to reach consensus is because we fail to describe or define "salvation", and we do mix "salvation" with "rebirth." Look here ...

In Ephesains 2:8-9 scripture says; "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast"

And in Philippians 2:12 scripture says; "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;"

Scripture itself requires one to define "salvation" in each context. Therefore we should define "salvation" in each set of scriptures we would like to use for this discussion. If you peruse backwards in some of the threads on this subject you will never find the proponents doing this. The end is predictable. At best - disagreement, and at worst - confusion, with each party holding fast their verses, but unable to deal with the opponents verses. Once one defines "salvation" in each context, the picture becomes clear.

Then, it will do the student of scripture well to make a difference between being "born again" and the various aspects of "salvation". Being "born again" might be connected to the various aspects of salvation, but it is not the same. Being born again is an additional process whereby the Spirit of God infuses divine life into the believer and prepares the way for Him to achieve His age old plan with man - to have man in His image and likeness (Gen.1:26-28). This rebirth also enables a man to be the Bride of Christ because unless the couple have the same nature, they cannot marry. Adam was very impressed with all the animals but a "help meet" (a help up to his standard) was not found until a new creature with his intrinsic nature was taken out of him.

As the verses show, being born again will guarantee that you are a child of God, but you might not be saved from the Great Tribulation. On the other hand, all men are resurrected. That is, their bodies are saved. But not all men are born again.

Once "saved" is defined from the context the discussion will be very short. If it is not defined for each case, the discussion is endless (as this Forum shows)

[Adstars]

Hi everyone,



This forum is well set out and easy to use.

Also - good to see people studying God's Word.

I have some questions on assurance of salvation.

I know people say that a Christian can lose their assurance and have doubts about their salvation.

Any thoughts on the verses below?


"if indeed you continue in the faith grounded and settled and not being moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard proclaimed in all the creation under Heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister," (Col 1:23, LITV)
Is Paul saying all believers are never moved from the hope of the Good News? People that are moved from the hope are unbelievers?

Hello Andrew. This verse starts off with the world "if" you continue in the faith" This is the Key if one continues to believe Jesus and believe in His atonement one has salvation. But if a person stops believing Jesus and stops believing the Atonement of Jesus saves then they have fallen away.

"For we have become partakers of Christ, if truly we hold the beginning of the assurance firm to the end;" (Heb 3:14, LITV)
So, all believers hold the beginning of the assurance firm to the end? People without assurance are unbelievers?

Notice the "if" in the verse again? We must hold our belief in Jesus. same thing as the first verse you posted.

"but Christ as Son over His house, whose house we are, if truly we hold fast the boldness and rejoicing of the hope firm to the end." (Heb 3:6, LITV)
Therefore, all believers hold fast the boldness and rejoicing of the hope firm to the end? People without boldness are unbelievers?

Well the unbelievers never started to hold to the belief that Jesus saves. Uness you are talking about a person who once believed and then fell away into disbelief?

Romans 8:14 "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive a spirit of slavery again to fear, but you received a Spirit of adoption by which we cry, Abba! Father! 16 The Spirit Himself witnesses with our spirit that we are children of God."
All believers can cry Abba, father? People doubting cannot cry Abba Father, so they are unbelievers... ?

We who believe can cry out to God as out Father. Do not get confused with knowing that you can call out to God as Father and feeling you are good enough to call out to God as Father. Many people do believe they can call out to God as Father but because of the human feelings of unworthiness they can sometimes find it hard to call out to Him as Father, Indeed we are not worthy. But it is through Faith that we are saved not through our own worthiness. No one can make a boast about how they are good enough to earn the right to call out to God as Father. All followers of Jesus must focus on the worthiness of Jesus and take assurance in His worthiness and know that Jesus is not a liar, When the Scriptures state that all who trust in Him have salvation we can be assured not because we are justified but because His Word stands as truth and can be trusted with 100% assurance.

"

[SIZE=2]We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one." (1 John 5:19)
All believers know they are of God? People having doubts about their salvation don't have the same faith as the Apostle John.

As i said above sometimes doubts come into our minds. Because we doubt ourselves. But if we do not doubt Jesus then these thoughts can be overcome because we trust in Jesus. Now if these doubts come into our minds because we are starting to doubt Jesus, then that is a very serious matter indeed.

"but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never thirst again; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life." (John 4:14)
Believers are never thirsty? People doubting are thirsty - they are unbelievers?

Believers who suffer doubt in themselves will still be thirsty they just feel unworthy to drink such pure water. Unbelievers often don't know that they are thirsty of fill themselves with pride.

"Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will not be hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty." (John 6:35)
Believers are never hungry?

If they continue in their faith in Jesus.

"Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father, who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace," (2 Thes 2:16)
All believers have eternal comfort and a good hope?

If one truly believes Jesus and trusts in His Atonement they will always have the comfort and good hope for their eternal life with Jesus.

"By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because of His Spirit He has given to us." (1 John 4:13, LITV)
All believers know they abide in Him?

"Examine yourselves, whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Or do you not yourselves perceive that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are disapproved?" (2 Cor 13:5, LITV)
All believers know Jesus is in them?

So believers cannot doubt their salvation, right?

As long as they keep in mind the foundation of their salvation is Jesus and what He said and did. Not in themselves, what they say and do.


Oh and you really should remove your phone number. This is a public forum.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[BrianW]

Mod Note: Thread moved to the Christians Answer forum.

AndrewCB, You are most welcome here. I ask that you please use the Christians Answer forum for posting threads and any questions you may have and restrict yourself from posting on other parts of the board according to the rules of the forum.
Please acquaint yourself with the rules of our forum. If you should have any questions or concerns please start a thread in our Chat to moderators section.
I've also removed the personal information (Cell phone and email) from your post. You can feel free to give that information out in a PM or on another site if you wish but we ask people not to post these things on our forums. We care about your safety
Thank you and God bless.
BrianW

[Dani H]

So believers cannot doubt their salvation, right?

Of course we can doubt. Many do. But, we can always go to Christ and receive assurance.

I'm a believer in eternal security but I'm also human and still need reassurance. Which God is always happy to provide by helping us to become grounded in truth. We all have to learn to put our faith in God's promises instead of our own feelings and doubts. Sometimes that's immediate, at other times it's a process.

I know I have eternal life. But I have weak moments also. It happens. That's where I'm always glad that Jesus is greater than I am and that His salvation isn't dependent on my feelings. God is not like people.

Having said that, the once saved, always saved versus people being able to lose their salvation, is the subject of many threads and many discussions, here and elsewhere, that's never been able to be laid to rest.

[episkopos]

There are no guarantees in an "if". That is the qualifier for anything eternal. We do reap what we sow.

Our best effort in a flat out no holds barred life of faith in God is our only hope of reaping something we will be eternally happy with. Those who are looking for a minimum standard are missing the race aspect of our calling in Christ...the minimum keeps changing.

We must trust even this to God knowing that He always does what is right.

[Colight]

We have a living God..
A living God is able to keep us, even when we should fail.

Salvation is secure... it is Christ... it can never be lost.
There is nothing more solid than the work of Christ.

what we build on that salvation is what can be suspect and in need of testing.

[Boo]

We have a living God who can keep us if we fail, but he warned us to continue in our faith to the end if we want to reach our desitination with Him. That is why those scriptures say "if."

I believe that the scriptures are serious about this working out our salvation with fear and trembling. It is not to be taken lightly.

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

If you believe it is a gaurantee regardless of how you act in the future, you are in for a rude awakening.

[Ceegen]

Hi everyone,



This forum is well set out and easy to use.

Also - good to see people studying God's Word.

I have some questions on assurance of salvation.

I know people say that a Christian can lose their assurance and have doubts about their salvation.

Any thoughts on the verses below?


"if indeed you continue in the faith grounded and settled and not being moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard proclaimed in all the creation under Heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister," (Col 1:23, LITV)
Is Paul saying all believers are never moved from the hope of the Good News? People that are moved from the hope are unbelievers?

"For we have become partakers of Christ, if truly we hold the beginning of the assurance firm to the end;" (Heb 3:14, LITV)
So, all believers hold the beginning of the assurance firm to the end? People without assurance are unbelievers?

"but Christ as Son over His house, whose house we are, if truly we hold fast the boldness and rejoicing of the hope firm to the end." (Heb 3:6, LITV)
Therefore, all believers hold fast the boldness and rejoicing of the hope firm to the end? People without boldness are unbelievers?


Romans 8:14 "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive a spirit of slavery again to fear, but you received a Spirit of adoption by which we cry, Abba! Father! 16 The Spirit Himself witnesses with our spirit that we are children of God."
All believers can cry Abba, father? People doubting cannot cry Abba Father, so they are unbelievers... ?

" We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one." (1 John 5:19)
All believers know they are of God? People having doubts about their salvation don't have the same faith as the Apostle John.

"but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never thirst again; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life." (John 4:14)
Believers are never thirsty? People doubting are thirsty - they are unbelievers?

"Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will not be hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty." (John 6:35)
Believers are never hungry?

"Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father, who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace," (2 Thes 2:16)
All believers have eternal comfort and a good hope?

"By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because of His Spirit He has given to us." (1 John 4:13, LITV)
All believers know they abide in Him?

"Examine yourselves, whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Or do you not yourselves perceive that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are disapproved?" (2 Cor 13:5, LITV)
All believers know Jesus is in them?

So believers cannot doubt their salvation, right?


Andrew
Florida
free free to call / friend / email me

http://facebook.com/BainAndrew

Mod Note: Personal information removed-BrianW

Free will. We have it, or else sin wouldn't be able to be punished. If we had no free will, the sin would be on God's hands, and that is not even a consideration:

"Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin." - John 19:11.

Was Jesus saying that God was guilty of this sin? Nope. Jesus' kingdom isn't of the world.

"Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me." - John 14:30.

The prince of this world is none other than Satan. Satan delivered Jesus up to death, because Satan is evil and corrupt. How this could have happened to a "perfect" creation such as "Lucifer"? Without free will, it is impossible. Otherwise we would have no enemy, and God is tempting us with evil... But God does not tempt us with evil!

Though we might be tested by God, we are never tempted by God. He wants us to stand up to evil. He is like a proud parent, who declares: "Look at what my beautiful son/daughter can do!"

You were created in the Image and Likeness of The Creator. There is no other. Stand proud in the face of evil... But stay humble to God

[Colight]

We have a living God who can keep us if we fail, but he warned us to continue in our faith to the end if we want to reach our desitination with Him. That is why those scriptures say "if."

I believe that the scriptures are serious about this working out our salvation with fear and trembling. It is not to be taken lightly.

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

If you believe it is a gaurantee regardless of how you act in the future, you are in for a rude awakening.

We didnt act to gain salvation, therefore any action we do... can not have us loose it.
CHRIST did all the action on salvation. it was HIS WORK not ours.

EPH 2
8 for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you--of God the gift,
9 not of works, that no one may boast;

Works and acts can not save us, therefore works and acts can not UNSAVE us.
We do not SAVE our self.. therefore we can NOT UNSAVE our self.

Psalms 3
8 Salvation belongeth unto the LORD: thy blessing is upon thy people. Selah.

It does not belong to us to lose, are we GOD that we can control such things?

[Boo]

We didnt act to gain salvation, therefore any action we do... can not have us loose it.
CHRIST did all the action on salvation. it was HIS WORK not ours.

EPH 2
8 for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you--of God the gift,
9 not of works, that no one may boast;

Works and acts can not save us, therefore works and acts can not UNSAVE us.
We do not SAVE our self.. therefore we can NOT UNSAVE our self.

Psalms 3
8 Salvation belongeth unto the LORD: thy blessing is upon thy people. Selah.

It does not belong to us to lose, are we GOD that we can control such things?

Absolutely not.

But God warns us time and time again of that which we must do or else we will be cut off. It is His doing to offer and His doing to take away if we deny him. If we grieve the Holy Spirit, God can and will cut us loose from the vine. He said so.

I have yet to see anywhere in any verse that says that we cannot give up our free gift by our subsequent actions but there are many references that warns that we must continue to be followers of Jesus and remain so until the end.

I'd be happy to see a verse that says that a Christian cannot turn away. I've seen plenty that says that they can.

[episkopos]

We didnt act to gain salvation, therefore any action we do... can not have us loose it.
CHRIST did all the action on salvation. it was HIS WORK not ours.

EPH 2
8 for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you--of God the gift,
9 not of works, that no one may boast;

Works and acts can not save us, therefore works and acts can not UNSAVE us.
We do not SAVE our self.. therefore we can NOT UNSAVE our self.

Psalms 3
8 Salvation belongeth unto the LORD: thy blessing is upon thy people. Selah.

It does not belong to us to lose, are we GOD that we can control such things?

The opposite is true. We have been given an initial salvation to get our hearts and minds in gear. Then God wants to live through us doing the works prepared in advance...sort of like a saint.