guest
Salvation is the Lords.. as I stated in my post Psalms 3:8 we can not give up or turn away from what does not belong to us.Originally Posted by Boo
It is positional not something we must grasp.
Therefore since God put us positionally in the slot marked saved, when we turn away he is free as our owner ( For he bought us with a price ) to then discipline us as he sees fit.
Sure we can turn away,, but that in no way affects our position as saved.
guest
What sort of works?The opposite is true. We have been given an initial salvation to get our hearts and minds in gear. Then God wants to live through us doing the works prepared in advance...sort of like a saint.
Like running around doing good?
The spirit is not perfected thru works of the flesh..
That is called legalism.
Gal 3
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
Paul calls that foolishness.
Posting Freak
What is the penalty for turning away? There must be one or else it would not matter.
Grand Master
Hello Andrew,
Those who believe in NOSAS would interpret these passages as such: "you will remain reconciled if you continue in the faith grounded and settled and not being moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard" (Colossians 1:21-22), "you will remain partakers of Christ, if truly we hold the beginning of the assurance firm to the end" (Hebrews 3:14), "we will remain His house if truly we hold fast the boldness and rejoicing of the hope firm to the end" (Hebrews 3:6).
Those who believe in OSAS will interpret these passages as such: "those who continue in the faith demonstrate that they have been reconciled and their faith is firmly established in the hope of the gospel and those who fail to continue in the faith and lose hope in the gospel demonstrate that they have not been reconciled and their faith was not firmly established from the start" (Colossians 1:21-23), "we have become [past tense Gk. verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end." Verse 14 is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we have read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end. The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in their promised Messiah. And of course, the only ones in the end who will be identified as truly born again Hebrews who have partaken in Messiah, will have been those who have held onto their original boldness, confidence, and boasting in Messiah as their salvation firm until the end. The wording of the above verses in Hebrews is not - "and you will become His house/partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "you have been, and now are, His house/partakers of Christ, if in the future you hold fast/continue." Holding fast would be seen as the proof of genuine conversion. Failure to hold fast would be seen as a lack of genuine conversion.
Only those who have received a Spirit of adoption (believers) can truly cry, Abba! Father! Prior to my conversion, I certainly did not cry, Abba! Father!Romans 8:14 "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive a spirit of slavery again to fear, but you received a Spirit of adoption by which we cry, Abba! Father! 16 The Spirit Himself witnesses with our spirit that we are children of God." All believers can cry Abba, father? People doubting cannot cry Abba Father, so they are unbelievers...?
All believers know they are of God. 1 John 5:13 - These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.. It's one thing to permanently doubt your salvation and another thing to have a temporary weak moment of doubt based on your feelings. Before I came to believe in Christ for salvation, I certainly could not say that I know I have eternal life. I had absolutely no assurance.We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one." (1 John 5:19) All believers know they are of God? People having doubts about their salvation don't have the same faith as the Apostle John.
We need to draw our assurance from faith in the facts of Scripture and not from our feelings. Our faith and thus our assurance must stand on the sure promises of the Bible rather than on our feelings."but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never thirst again; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life." (John 4:14)
Believers are never thirsty? People doubting are thirsty - they are unbelievers?
"Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will not be hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty." (John 6:35)
Believers are never hungry?
"Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father, who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace," (2 Thes 2:16)
All believers have eternal comfort and a good hope?
"By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because of His Spirit He has given to us." (1 John 4:13, LITV)
All believers know they abide in Him?
"Examine yourselves, whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Or do you not yourselves perceive that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are disapproved?" (2 Cor 13:5, LITV)
All believers know Jesus is in them?
So believers cannot doubt their salvation, right?
guest
It can be many things from sickness to life's calamities.
God knows what hot spots affect each one of us.
For as in
Heb 10
5 and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons,
"My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
Nor faint when you are reproved by Him;
6 For those whom the Lord loves He disciplines,
And He scourges every son whom He receives."
Once saved always saved does not seem to follow all the scriptures. Certain verses are used and are made to be and end-all and be-all argument.
You can't just believe and be saved. James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that —and shudder.
We see throughout scripture that there is baptism, repentance, fruit... all sorts of things that come into living a life for Christ. It is not one prayer and done. Paul calls it a race of endurance you must complete. Christ says "if" you remain in me. He is addressing this to those He has already made clean. He says those branches that are part of his vine and do not bear fruit will be cast away to be destroyed. He says in the parable of the talents that the man with the one talent that did not use it was cast out of the kingdom.
Matthew 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
The continuation of that chapter says that those who do not care for the needy will be cast into eternal punishment.
Matthew 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
If we already know everything about our future conditions because we prayed a prayer of salvation, then why is there even a judgement?
Last edited by salesman; Aug 10th 2012 at 03:41 PM. Reason: typing error
guest
Yet you use certain verses as your be all and end all argument...
Salvation is not about believing there is one God.... if that was the case then all Muslims would be saved. For they believe there is one god.
Matthew 25 is a passage about the Kingdom of God.. most of it relate on a national level and specifically directed towards jews as a people and nation..
He is not addressing the gentile Church. For when we die or even the rapture.. We go to the Lord.
In Matt 25 the Lord is coming to them.
Therefore this is to those alive at his second coming.
Those jews who he gave talents to use during the great tribulation but did not use them will face judgement. ( aka the same as the children of Israel who lacked faith to enter the promised land. They withered and died in the wilderness.
Matthew 25:45 is a warning to NATIONS as explained in verse 32
mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats..
Certain nations will have hunted and killed the Jews. Others will have fed and protected them. The same as with what Rahab the harlot did with the Spies at Jericho.
There are not passages to support loss of salvation.
Just a reminder of the rules of this forum:
2. Please keep all replies addressed to the Original Poster (OP). If you have something that will support another view from another Christian... feel free to add that support. That doesn't allow for disagreement and discussing those disagreements. That can be done in many of the other sections or in private with the individual. Our ultimate goal is to share our Christian belief with those that do not believe. Do not critique another Christian’s post. If you feel a reply or post is inappropriate please report it and the Moderator Team will take care of it.
My soul does GLORIFY the LORD, my spirit REJOICES in GOD MY SAVIOUR
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"To be entirely safe from the devils snares the man of God must be completely obedient to the Word of the Lord. The driver on the highway is safe, not when he reads the signs but when he obeys them."A.W.Tozer
The Lifehouse Skit
passages that might help you. I added the highlights!
John 15:
15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit —fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.
Hebrews 6:
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.
9 Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case—the things that have to do with salvation. 10 God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. 11 We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, so that what you hope for may be fully realized. 12 We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.
I Timothy 6:12 Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses.
II Timothy 4:7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day —and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.
James 2:
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
The most important thing you can do in looking at salvation is look at Jesus teaching. He told Niccodemus, in a private conversation to be born again. You must be born again, but that was not the focus of His ministry. If that was the end-all and be-all He would have said so. His focus was always on the kingdom of God (heaven). He says in Luke 4:43 But he said, “I must proclaim the good news of the kingdom of God to the other towns also, because that is why I was sent.” Look at what he focused on in His Sermon on the Mount
Matthew 5:
2 and he began to teach them. He said:
3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
Salt and Light
13 “You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
14 “You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.
This is the most complete teaching we have in one place. Go through the rest of the chapter and on to chapter 6 and 7. See for yourself what Jesus message was. It was to live a kingdom Christian life. Even in the born again passage with Niccodemus, Christ says you must be born again to "see the kingdom of God".
The most quoted verses in this debate are found in Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
But look at why you have been saved. vs 10- salvation is the key that opens us up to doing good
Ephs. 2:10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
I agree that God does extend grace to us. Unmerited favor that we could never earn. But once we become a member of His kingdom we have responsibilities that we must strive to fulfill.
Jesus tells us He is here to preach the kingdom. In fact He only uses the phrases "good news" or "gospel" when talking about the kingdom. Then in many parables He tells us what the kingdom is like. In many of those parables He tells us that those who refuse to honor God are cast out.
I heard a preacher once read the Bible and come to a point where it says and "they shall be cast out" with the whole weeping and gnashing of teeth part. Then he says- "of course that does not mean they will really be cast out... It means they will lose rewards in heaven."
I would suggest reading the Bible as simply as possible. If it says you can be cut-off the vine, or cast out, or fall away- then at least be aware that those type scriptures are plentiful and that they appear in the writings of the gospels as well as James, Paul, and Peter.
I never got scolded by a mod before. Does #24 meet the criteria? I don't want to be a trouble maker!
Just direct it to the OP, and do not challenge a Christian who disagrees. You used scripture and directed it to the OP, it seems fine. It was a general reminder, so no need to feel scolded.
blessings to you
My soul does GLORIFY the LORD, my spirit REJOICES in GOD MY SAVIOUR
------
"To be entirely safe from the devils snares the man of God must be completely obedient to the Word of the Lord. The driver on the highway is safe, not when he reads the signs but when he obeys them."
The Lifehouse Skit
thanks! Just checkingJust direct it to the OP, and do not challenge a Christian who disagrees. You used scripture and directed it to the OP, it seems fine. It was a general reminder, so no need to feel scolded.
blessings to you
Member
*
Satan has done a good job getting Christians to measure each others salvation and declare who is and isn't saved. Consider the following;
Jesus says that there will be many to whom he will say, "I never knew you". We also see Jesus telling the Pharisees, "you are of your father the devil". There have been, are, and will be people who are mistaken about their salvation and the status of their relationship with God.
The question becomes, "How can we be sure?"
The Bible says both that we can "know" we are saved (1John 5:13), and that we should examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith (2Corinthians 13:5). This is not a contradiction.The Bible tells us that there is uncertainty and can be certainty. The Bible also tells us to persevere. To the theologian this apparent ambiguity is something he must resolve and explain. As a result, there are many doctrines of various denominations that are promulgated more for their tidiness than their accuracy.
We might want to consider that the lack of Biblical specificity is not an error, but rather the desire of God that we derive our assurance of salvation directly from Him. God may want us unsure and ill at ease until we mature in faith and grow in the image of Christ and closer to Him.
Some religious experts offer measurement standards such as having been baptized, saying a particular prayer, having taken Jesus "into your heart", or made Jesus Lord of your life as the criteria to guarantee that one is saved.
If someone asks me if they are saved, I try to help them by using measurement criteria from the Bible. For example, the Bible is foolishness to those that are perishing, "Do you think the Bible is foolish?". The Bible says that people will know that we are Christians by the love we have for each other, "Do you have love for other Christians?" We have been sealed with the Holy Spirit, "Do you discern His presence?" The Christian is supposed to be in a process of becoming like Jesus, "Are you becoming like Jesus?".
For the person who is not comforted by such questions, I suggest that he put more work into knowing his Savior, the Bible, and surrendering himself to Jesus. Often it is our worldly attachments and walking in the flesh that prevent us from growing closer to our Lord and thus able to draw certainty of salvation.
Our modern organizational religious systems have lost the personal touch. They will often tell someone to be assured because they have met the established criteria and are thus saved. The relational component of Christianity comes in when an older and wiser Christian brother or sister can show a younger one how to draw closer to Jesus and gain the assurance they seek directly from Him who saved them. Christians do not need to fight over what they feel is the most accurate doctrinal statement. They need to encourage those whose faith is weak and walk is distant to draw closer to their Lord and draw their certainty directly from Him who loves them.
Regular Contributor
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1 John was written for the entire purpose of people who doubted their salvation according to 1 John 5:13, so it must be possible for a true Christian to doubt their salvation. If people doubt their salvation they often will have certain reasons to because they are looking for it in the wrong place. They'll look at feeling, or works or experience to wonder if they have salvation rather than looking at the bible and what it says.Hi everyone,
This forum is well set out and easy to use.
Also - good to see people studying God's Word.
I have some questions on assurance of salvation.
I know people say that a Christian can lose their assurance and have doubts about their salvation.
Any thoughts on the verses below?
"if indeed you continue in the faith grounded and settled and not being moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard proclaimed in all the creation under Heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister," (Col 1:23, LITV)
Is Paul saying all believers are never moved from the hope of the Good News? People that are moved from the hope are unbelievers?
"For we have become partakers of Christ, if truly we hold the beginning of the assurance firm to the end;" (Heb 3:14, LITV)
So, all believers hold the beginning of the assurance firm to the end? People without assurance are unbelievers?
"but Christ as Son over His house, whose house we are, if truly we hold fast the boldness and rejoicing of the hope firm to the end." (Heb 3:6, LITV)
Therefore, all believers hold fast the boldness and rejoicing of the hope firm to the end? People without boldness are unbelievers?
Romans 8:14 "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive a spirit of slavery again to fear, but you received a Spirit of adoption by which we cry, Abba! Father! 16 The Spirit Himself witnesses with our spirit that we are children of God."
All believers can cry Abba, father? People doubting cannot cry Abba Father, so they are unbelievers... ?
" We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one." (1 John 5:19)
All believers know they are of God? People having doubts about their salvation don't have the same faith as the Apostle John.
"but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never thirst again; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life." (John 4:14)
Believers are never thirsty? People doubting are thirsty - they are unbelievers?
"Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will not be hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty." (John 6:35)
Believers are never hungry?
"Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father, who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace," (2 Thes 2:16)
All believers have eternal comfort and a good hope?
"By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because of His Spirit He has given to us." (1 John 4:13, LITV)
All believers know they abide in Him?
"Examine yourselves, whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Or do you not yourselves perceive that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are disapproved?" (2 Cor 13:5, LITV)
All believers know Jesus is in them?
So believers cannot doubt their salvation, right?
Andrew
Florida
free free to call / friend / email me
http://facebook.com/BainAndrew
Mod Note: Personal information removed-BrianW
Isaiah 53:6 "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."
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