Why tribulation?

[Maureen92]

First of all, I was pre trib, then post trib, now Idk. I don't understand a few things.

-If it's pre trib- are the trib saints the jews? Why would there be 3 kinds of people? There isn't saved, kinda saved, and unsaved. There's just saved and unsaved.

-If it's post trib- why don't the dead have to go through the trib? They get a pass because they're dead? I know Christians in the past have gone through trials and tribulation but not every one has. Some Christians don't go through any physical tribulation, just verbal, then die.

Why would we have to go through tribulation to be purified? We already are by Jesus's blood. We are saved by faith, not works. God sees our works as filthy rags. I know people in the old testament have been through tribulation and God took care of them, but that was before Jesus's resurrection.

[T W Taylor]

Hello Maureen92, I think it better to be a IDK than to be a pre trib or a post triber. The tribulations that are about to take place are the great tribulations, meaning big and long.

It appears the Elect might not be raptured, and will be going through the Great Tribulation because it is cut short for the Elect’s sake.

Matt 24:21 "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Matt 24:22 "And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.

Here we find one reason for the Great Tribulation, To test those that dwell on the earth. What could the test be? To test our faith and endurance? We are commanded to persevere. (not give up or quit.)

Rev 3:10 "Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

Romans 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."

Mark 13:13 "And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Another reason I see is to avenge the blood of the saints.

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"

Heb 10:30 For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The Lord will judge His people."

Luke 18:7 "And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them?
Luke 18:8 "I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?"

[DurbanDude]

First of all, I was pre trib, then post trib, now Idk. I don't understand a few things.

-If it's pre trib- are the trib saints the jews? Why would there be 3 kinds of people? There isn't saved, kinda saved, and unsaved. There's just saved and unsaved.

-If it's post trib- why don't the dead have to go through the trib? They get a pass because they're dead? I know Christians in the past have gone through trials and tribulation but not every one has. Some Christians don't go through any physical tribulation, just verbal, then die.

Why would we have to go through tribulation to be purified? We already are by Jesus's blood. We are saved by faith, not works. God sees our works as filthy rags. I know people in the old testament have been through tribulation and God took care of them, but that was before Jesus's resurrection.

I am post-trib and was trying to find the verse that indicates a purification of the church during the tribulation. All I could find was this verse:

Daniel 12:10
Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.

I believe this does refer to a purification during the 3.5 year tribulation, but a purification through salvation. Many Jews will be saved, many Jews will become Christians.The church is to retain our faith, keep watching over our souls, but you are right that we cannot get more purified because Jesus has already done that at our salvation, through the blood of Jesus we are purified. I personally don't mind which way it happens, its kept short to only 3.5 years, and its an exciting period because we will know Jesus is about to come. So I'm not convinced the dead have avoided a troublesome time, they have also missed an exciting time, but its all really irrelevant. Whether we live or die, are persecuted or not, this life is a small period in comparison to eternity so the relative comforts and troubles each Christian experiences has no relevance in the long run.

[Walls]

Hi Maureen92

You have posed a question that many would like to ask.

What is clear from scripture is that;

• The Christian was NOT “appointed to wrath” (1st Thess.1:10, 5:9). This is said in context of the rapture. Not being “appointed” does not guarantee missing the wrath. Israel was saved by the Lamb, baptized in the Red Sea, and became builders of God’s House, the Tabernacle. All this was because they were “appointed” to enter and take the Good Land for an inheritance. But all but two of the men of war did not make it. An ambassador for a country might be “appointed” to the position, but due to bad behavior he is disgraced and relieved of his position.
• That missing this “wrath” is conditional on being an overcoming Christian (Rev.3:10)
• That some Christians will be in the air with our Lord Jesus (1st Thess.4:17)
• That some Christians will be on earth during the Great Tribulation (Matt.25:31-40; Rev.12:17, 13:7)
• That the Jews all go through the Great Tribulation but some are sealed so that they survive (Dan.12:1; Rev.7:1-8)
• The nations go through the Great Tribulation and a large portion are killed (mostly estimated at about two thirds of the world’s population)

Your query concerns the Christians. The “wrath” that we are not appointed to go through is obviously the Great Tribulation (Dan.12:1; Jer.30:7; Ezek.7:6-12; Col.3:6; 1st Thess.2:16; Rev.6:16-17, 11:8, 14:19, 15:1, 7, 16:1, 19, 19:15). How then shall we account for the fact that some Christians miss the Great Tribulation, and some must pass through it (or at least part of it)?

The answer is relatively simple because our Lord Jesus used a picture for it. In Romans 1:19-20 the Holy Spirit affirms that men may know the things of God by the creation. In Matthew Chapter 13, when our Lord dealt with the end of the age, He said that it would be like a harvest (Matt.13:39). So if we go out into the fields and observe a harvest in nature, we see the following;

• It is the late summer heat and dryness that ripens the fruit
• There is a harvest of what is ripe first called the harvest of the firstfruits
• There is a general harvest
• There are gleanings left over in the field

All this is confirmed by Leviticus 23:9-22. Here we have a harvest of firstfruits that is offered WITHOUT leaven, a harvest of firstfruits offered WITH leaven, a general harvest and gleanings. Since the resurrection of the Church is synonymous with the end of the age, it too is a harvest (1st Cor.15:35-38, 43-44). So the harvest of Leviticus Chapter 23 shows us;

• Christ’s resurrection – a firstfruit offered WITHOUT leaven, indicating that He was without sin, which has already occurred, and in which our Lord is raptured 40 days later (1st Cor.15:20)
• The resurrection and rapture of the RIPE saints at the end of the age (WITH leaven indicating that they were with sin (for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God)). They are found in Revelation 14:4
• The resurrection and rapture of the rest of the saints who were not ripe on time. They are found in Revelation 7:9-16
• (Notice the similarity and differences between the two. Those of Revelation 14 and 7 are both before the Throne. But while those of Revelation 14 are “not defiled” those of Revelation 7 needed to be washed in the blood of the Lamb. Added to this, those of Chapter 7 “came out of the Great Tribulation.” (The missing article in the King James Version is considered by most scholars to be a mistake and it appears in all other versions including the New King James Version.)

If we piece all of the information together we can see that missing the Great Tribulation is a reward for being an overcomer, being a diligent Christian and being ripe (spiritually) on time. They are those Christians who used the harsh dealings of life and the chastisement of Lord to become ripe early and they are raptured before the Great Tribulation. The general harvest is the rest of Christianity who were lukewarm, slothful, and who let sin rule them. The Great Tribulation is the last summer heat that will ripen them for a harvest, or rapture, towards the end of the Great Tribulation.

Then your question mentioned those Christians who are dead and get to miss the Great Tribulation. You are correct. We cannot get around this fact. However, the resurrections still apply and then there is the Bema judgment seat of Christ, which they must face, and in which He will apportion reward or loss for the coming age.

May I say in closing that the serious bible scholars mostly needed a whole book to deal with what I have said above, so my posting is by no means complete. But I hope it will give the reader some answers.

[Maureen92]

thanks for answering =)

[dancedwithdolphin]

James 1

Dear brothers and sisters,[a] when troubles come your way, consider it an opportunity for great joy. 3 For you know that when your faith is tested, your endurance has a chance to grow. 4 So let it grow, for when your endurance is fully developed, you will be perfect and complete, needing nothing.

5 If you need wisdom, ask our generous God, and he will give it to you. He will not rebuke you for asking. 6 But when you ask him, be sure that your faith is in God alone. Do not waver, for a person with divided loyalty is as unsettled as a wave of the sea that is blown and tossed by the wind. 7 Such people should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. 8 Their loyalty is divided between God and the world, and they are unstable in everything they do.

9 Believers who are[b] poor have something to boast about, for God has honored them. 10 And those who are rich should boast that God has humbled them. They will fade away like a little flower in the field. 11 The hot sun rises and the grass withers; the little flower droops and falls, and its beauty fades away. In the same way, the rich will fade away with all of their achievements.

12 God blesses those who patiently endure testing and temptation. Afterward they will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him. 13 And remember, when you are being tempted, do not say, “God is tempting me.” God is never tempted to do wrong,[c] and he never tempts anyone else. 14 Temptation comes from our own desires, which entice us and drag us away. 15 These desires give birth to sinful actions. And when sin is allowed to grow, it gives birth to death.

16 So don’t be misled, my dear brothers and sisters. 17 Whatever is good and perfect comes down to us from God our Father, who created all the lights in the heavens.[d] He never changes or casts a shifting shadow.[e] 18 He chose to give birth to us by giving us his true word. And we, out of all creation, became his prized possession.[f]


I add this concept. Ever wonder why Paul said this? Romans 5:3
We can rejoice, too, when we run into problems and trials, for we know that they help us develop endurance.

And Peter:

9.1 Peter 1:6
So be truly glad. There is wonderful joy ahead, even though you have to endure many trials for a little while.
1 Peter 1:5-7 (in Context) 1 Peter 1 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
10.1 Peter 1:7
These trials will show that your faith is genuine. It is being tested as fire tests and purifies gold—though your faith is far more precious than mere gold. So when your faith remains strong through many trials, it will bring you much praise and glory and honor on the day when Jesus Christ is revealed to the whole world.


It will be hard, harder than anything we have ever known, and yet we are told it is an opportunity for faith. (Not works, but faith. Although when faith is a part of your life, it produces fruit which is the evidence of your faith).

I think of the stories I have heard of christians during the time of the Romans, when they would rather die a horrrible death than deny Yeshua as their Messiah.
I have noticed people saying now a days that they would deny Jesus and repent later just to save their lives. But this is not what we are asked to do, we should be willing to die to this world and life, why because we want to be part of the world to come. And to have Jesus claim us as His own.

Just a few of my thoughts.

[freeman4]

thanks for answering =)

Why Tribulation? The reason for Tribulation is a learning process and a punishment phase. In matthew the statement is made by Christ to go to the "Lost House of Israel" But who and where are they at this time, now. The Gentiles are those who are not of the desendants of Israel.

Matthew 15:24

24 But he answered and said, "I am not sent (to the Jews or House of Judah) but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.(ONLY).

By a birth right blessing on the United States and Great Britain they have become and are the direct descendants of Israel. Part of the "Lost House Of Israel. This can be seen in Gen. Ch. 32,35 and 48.

In the United States today, we have a government that rejects God and rejects the Nation of Israel, our Jewish Brothers. God is angry and is now in the process of punishing our Nation for breaking His Laws, His Sabbaths and taking in all the Pagan systems. I believe we are now in the final 7-8 years of mans rule on this Earth.

Then Jesuis Christ will set up His Fathers Kingdom on this Earth and all who have qualified will be Kings and Priests in that Government.

freeman4;

[John 8:32]

Why Tribulation? The reason for Tribulation is a learning process and a punishment phase. In matthew the statement is made by Christ to go to the "Lost House of Israel" But who and where are they at this time, now. The Gentiles are those who are not of the desendants of Israel.

Matthew 15:24

24 But he answered and said, "I am not sent (to the Jews or House of Judah) but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.(ONLY).

By a birth right blessing on the United States and Great Britain they have become and are the direct descendants of Israel. Part of the "Lost House Of Israel. This can be seen in Gen. Ch. 32,35 and 48.

In the United States today, we have a government that rejects God and rejects the Nation of Israel, our Jewish Brothers. God is angry and is now in the process of punishing our Nation for breaking His Laws, His Sabbaths and taking in all the Pagan systems. I believe we are now in the final 7-8 years of mans rule on this Earth.

Then Jesuis Christ will set up His Fathers Kingdom on this Earth and all who have qualified will be Kings and Priests in that Government.

freeman4;

Add Lev 26 and Deut 28 into your thinking (which is correct by the way). After all, who was to bear the name Israel? The tribe of Judah? Me thinks not...

Gen 48:14 And Israel stretched out his right hand, and laid it upon Ephraim's head, who was the younger, and his left hand upon Manasseh's head, guiding his hands wittingly; for Manasseh was the firstborn.
Gen 48:15 And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day,
Gen 48:16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

Israel's name was to be on whom? Ephraim and Manasseh.

[T W Taylor]

Hey John 8:32,

Gen 48:14 And Israel stretched out his right hand, and laid it upon Ephraim's head, who was the younger, and his left hand upon Manasseh's head, guiding his hands wittingly; for Manasseh was the firstborn.

Who do you think has the birthright of Israel, now, and how would we know who they are? Do you think there is a description of who they are?

[DurbanDude]

Hey John 8:32,




Who do you think has the birthright of Israel, now, and how would we know who they are? Do you think there is a description of who they are?

Israel has the birthright of Israel. This has not changed. Gentile Christians have been allowed to be "grafted in" and so can also get the inheritance of Israel, and ethnic Israel can lose their birthright by not participating in their salvation through their Messiah.

[T W Taylor]

Hey Durbandude, I was talking about Who of the tribes of Israel had the birthright, I’m sure John 8:32 knew the answer, and You and I have talked about it a little before.
The last born, The youngest son of Joseph, that was adopted by Israel has the firstborn status, I think there is more description of who this is now in the bible than anyone else.

Jer 31:9 They shall come with weeping, And with supplications I will lead them. I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters, In a straight way in which they shall not stumble; For I am a Father to Israel, And Ephraim is My firstborn.

Ephraim will not be totally destroyed in the Great Tribulation.

Hosea 11:8 "How can I give you up, Ephraim? How can I hand you over, Israel? How can I make you like Admah? How can I set you like Zeboiim? My heart churns within Me; My sympathy is stirred.

Hosea 11:9 I will not execute the fierceness of My anger; I will not again destroy Ephraim. For I am God, and not man, The Holy One in your midst; And I will not come with terror.

[Adstars]

First of all, I was pre trib, then post trib, now Idk. I don't understand a few things.

-If it's pre trib- are the trib saints the jews? Why would there be 3 kinds of people? There isn't saved, kinda saved, and unsaved. There's just saved and unsaved.

-If it's post trib- why don't the dead have to go through the trib? They get a pass because they're dead? I know Christians in the past have gone through trials and tribulation but not every one has. Some Christians don't go through any physical tribulation, just verbal, then die.

Why would we have to go through tribulation to be purified?

Hi Maureen92
I am a post trib believer.

Some people are fence sitters who have no come to believe Jesus. Tribulation has the effect of forcing people to either abandon Jesus or embrace Jesus in full. The scriptures i believe you are referring to state that some will come to be true Christians and therefore saved because of the persecution they will face. Others of course will deny Jesus at the first sign of real trouble.

We already are by Jesus's blood. We are saved by faith, not works. God sees our works as filthy rags. I know people in the old testament have been through tribulation and God took care of them, but that was before Jesus's resurrection.

Hundreds of thousands of Christians have been going to tribulation since the day of Pentecost. Some at the hands of non-believers many at the hands of false believers. Jesus said:

John 16
33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[John 8:32]

Hey John 8:32,




Who do you think has the birthright of Israel, now, and how would we know who they are? Do you think there is a description of who they are?

Let's see...

Gen 49:22 Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall:

A colonizing nation.

Gen 49:23 The archers have sorely grieved him, and shot at him, and hated him:
Gen 49:24 But his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob; (from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel

How many times has God intervened in the history of the Us and Britain to win two world wars and a number of other skirmishes?

Where does the Stone of Destiny (Liafail) now reside?

Gen 49:25 Even by the God of thy father, who shall help thee; and by the Almighty, who shall bless thee with blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep that lieth under, blessings of the breasts, and of the womb:

Why is it that up until the very recent times the US and Britain with 6% of the worlds population, controlled 95% of it's wealth?

Gen 49:26 The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren.

Joseph was separate from his brethren and the crown of David now resides in England after being overturned (Ezek 21:27 - Ireland, Scotland and finally England) three times by Jeremiah and the relocation of Princess Tea Tephi daughter of king Zedekiah. This same throne will be handed over to Jesus Christ at His return by the reigning monarch. (There will always be an England)

Google some of these names, objects and events, the truth will astound you.

[DurbanDude]

Hey Durbandude, I was talking about Who of the tribes of Israel had the birthright, I’m sure John 8:32 knew the answer, and You and I have talked about it a little before.
.

sorry, I should have read more to know what you were really asking

[T W Taylor]

Hey Durbandude, I like talking to you anytime, You have a lot of understanding.