Acts 17:24-28

[uric3]

I was reading this the other day and a particular verse jumped out at me and made me ask myself a lot of questions. The text reads as follows.

"24 “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28 ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’"

You'll notice I made verse 26 bold the reason is that is the verse that jumped out at me. I have always questioned free will, and how God handles things such as knowing the future, etc... it is something I don't think I have a firm understanding of and not sure I ever will. However this verse caught my eye perhaps I am reading to much into it but I thought I would get the input of other minds.

I understand how we all come from the blood of one man... we all have a common descendant which is Adam... but the other part of the verse notes that God had "marked their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands." Is this verse stating that God planned things out in such detail that he decided I will create Billy Bob and he'll live in the United States, and exist from 1910-2000

If that is the case it seems like the reason God picked out in such detail is stated in verse 27. I'll stop there for now but what are your thoughts on this particular passage?

[chad]

Someone once explained it to me this way. We can take a bible and look at the timeline of past events written in the bible. We know, becuase we can look back at history.

God is eternal and outside of time, the alpha and omega. Even though 'we' live our lives now, for God it would probably be like looking back at history like a timeline. Yes God is in total control, he marks out the times and boundries of nations. We can see this in Genesis where God spoke of events in the future such as Israel being slaves in Egypt, Abram being the father of many nations etc...

I was reading this the other day and a particular verse jumped out at me and made me ask myself a lot of questions. The text reads as follows.

"24 “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28 ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’"

You'll notice I made verse 26 bold the reason is that is the verse that jumped out at me. I have always questioned free will, and how God handles things such as knowing the future, etc... it is something I don't think I have a firm understanding of and not sure I ever will. However this verse caught my eye perhaps I am reading to much into it but I thought I would get the input of other minds.

I understand how we all come from the blood of one man... we all have a common descendant which is Adam... but the other part of the verse notes that God had "marked their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands." Is this verse stating that God planned things out in such detail that he decided I will create Billy Bob and he'll live in the United States, and exist from 1910-2000

If that is the case it seems like the reason God picked out in such detail is stated in verse 27. I'll stop there for now but what are your thoughts on this particular passage?

[BroRog]

I understand how we all come from the blood of one man... we all have a common descendant which is Adam... but the other part of the verse notes that God had "marked their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands." Is this verse stating that God planned things out in such detail that he decided I will create Billy Bob and he'll live in the United States, and exist from 1910-2000

I think you got it. Paul understands that God orchestrates every little detail of our lives etc. However, this isn't his main point. I believe his purpose is to draw the Gentiles into a dialog around certain core ideas, which he believes they share with him. In apologetics circles this is called "finding common ground." What are the "givens" we can all accept? To begin the dialog, let's set down some known or established facts.

First Paul asserts that God made the world and everything in it. And even though cultures have a different perspective on the identity of this God, many of those in his audience would agree that God, whoever he is, made the world and everything in it. From this premise he draws two conclusions: 1) if God made everything, then he isn't localized to a temple building; and 2) if God made everything he is not served by human hands. If he needs something, which he doesn't, but if he did, he would make it. He doesn't need a human being to get it for him.

Next, Paul asserts that all people share a common ancestor. This means that all people, regardless of family line or nationality, all people have a few key things in common with each other. And the purpose for creating families and ancestors etc. was so that man might inhabit the entire earth. Paul also asserts that God marked out their habitation and set the boundaries of their lands. Given these two premises then, Paul concludes that God caused man to populate the entire earth and set boundaries for them "so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him."

What does this mean exactly? Remember what Paul asserts earlier. God made everything and he doesn't dwell in temples. God is not localized at a particular spot on the earth. We can't find God on a map or locate him with a GPS system. But in order to demonstrate this to us human beings, he causes us to populate or inhabit the entire planet. For this reason we should be able to wander the entire earth looking for God and ask the locals whether they have seen God walking around anywhere. Let's go seek God; Let's go wonder the earth and see if we can find him. And we will see if any of the local people have seen him.

The answer will come back, nope. God is not assigned to any particular place; he isn't located in any particular spot on the earth. But, Paul says, he is really not that far from any of us. If you want, you can search the world over and ask all the people if they have seen God walk by, but then, one need not believe that God is somewhere "out there" either.

[uric3]

Thank you for your replies... I was surprised not many people replied to this thread. However I think its one of the most difficult topics for us to wrap our minds around. Its extremely difficult for me. I want to branch this topic out a bit if you don't mind to get your thoughts, because I honestly want to get a better understanding of God and how he works.

Question #1. Do we have free will? If so how can God know who will or will not obey his will before they even exist? To me it would seem free will wouldn't exist in this type of logic.

Question #2. If God does know the future as in who will do what why does scripture so often depict God not knowing from time to time? (I can give reference if you'd like.)

[dancedwithdolphin]

A little off topic, but I think the most mind blowing information I ever recieved was this: Genesis 1

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.


Now keeping this in mind, I saw an episode at christmas time about the Bethlehem star. Now this is not the only teaching I heard on this, but my two sources spoke of Yeshua's story written in the stars. It wasnt until recently that we have computers able to run huge programs to map out the stars (past, present, and future) which show us constellations and their locations. And according to many prophetic scriptures it uses constellations to tell a story, such as the virgin (viro or in hebrew Betullah). To me that is just mind blowing amazing! That means Yeshua was written into our history even before we (Adam and Eve...) were created!

I dont know about you but sometimes I wish I didnt have free will. It seems like I am always making the wrong choices or saying the wrong thing.

I have an example that I think of concerning your topic, the story of Moses against the Pharoah. I always wondered why God would turn pharoahs heart warm and cold. But upon rereading this story many times I believe it was completely free will. What happened was pharoah was a hard hearted person by his own will, when God interveined on behalf of his people he softened pharoahs heart. And then when God pulled his will back pharoah reverted back to his disobedient YHVH hating ways.

The new testiment speaks of this too. Just one of the places where the apostles were having problems within the fellowship of believers (obviously not all who came in were believers).


1John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.


I had to chuckle when I read how another member responded about what she had heard about free will, because my mom put it to me this way: Have you ever watched a movie from beginning to end? Sure, of course. But while you are in the movie time frame, do those people know the end? They are still living free will. And you still know beginning to end. I kinda liked that analogy.

Ever wonder why this subject wasnt spoken of persay in the testiments? I think the believers dont really concern themselves with my will vs God's will. Believers want to follow God's will. Just my 2cents worth.

[uric3]

Thank you for your response... and the movie analogy however with the movie analogy if you the viewer have never seen the movie you don't know what is going to take place. I wonder from scripture if this is sometimes the case with God. Here are a few examples of what I am talking about and why at least in my mind I have such a hard time with this particular topic.

#1

Gen 6:1-ff - We should all be aware of this passage since it revolves around Noah and the flood. However notice verses 5 & 6 in particular " And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart."

Depending on Translation for repented you'll get the words, regret, sorry, etc... to me this shows that God didn't know it would get this bad, because if I know something isn't going to work out and I am going to be sorry for it or regret it I don't do it... or I will make the changes so that doesn't happen. Thus God did in a way start over by wiping out everything save Noah and his family.

# 2

Gen 18 - Another passage we all know where Abraham begs God not to destroy the city if there are X number of righteous people. However before that story starts notice verses 20 & 21

"And the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; 21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know."

We see God noting he needs to come and see whether or not these things are so... why do that wouldn't he already know?

#3

Gen 22 - Once again another one we are all familiar with Abraham offering Issac but notice verse 12. "And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me."

Why would God say Now I know? Didn't he know already?

#4

1 Sam 15 - We all know Saul is King and it is stripped away and given to David. However notice verse 35 "And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the Lord repented that he had made Saul king over Israel."

Once again we see God was sorry or regretted that he made Saul king. If he already knew why do it?

#5

Rev 2:21 "I gave her time to repent, but she refuses to repent of her sexual immorality."

Why would God give anyone time to repent if he already knew they would not?

Granted there are a lot more examples like the ones above but I think these will suffice to get the idea across of where I am coming from. Let me make one note "I am trying to limit God or say he can't know the future, I am just trying to understand Free Will, an All Knowing God, and how these passages and others harmonize." I just wanted to make that note I think we can discuss without offending anyone and I want to point that out so no one thinks I am trying to limit God or anything of that nature.

I will make one other note before someone else does so... I am sure someone will bring up all the prophecies of Christ and how they all were to the letter. I agree with this, but could it not be God explaining what he is going to do, and he did it. That's somewhat different than stating the unknown or the future. For example, if I say I'm going to eat a bowl of chili at lunch, and I do so... was I telling the future? Not really I just told you what I was going to do and did it.

Thus I think that is how a lot of Biblical prophesies work... God notes what he is going to do and does it... granted it is in his time but he does it.

Granted I know something could prevent me from eating my chili in my example, however when God states he'll do something and this is how he will do it... well we all know nothing will thwart his efforts.

Anyway hopefully that makes sense... let me know your thoughts on the matter.

[salesman]

Thank you for your replies... I was surprised not many people replied to this thread. However I think its one of the most difficult topics for us to wrap our minds around. Its extremely difficult for me. I want to branch this topic out a bit if you don't mind to get your thoughts, because I honestly want to get a better understanding of God and how he works.

Question #1. Do we have free will? If so how can God know who will or will not obey his will before they even exist? To me it would seem free will wouldn't exist in this type of logic.

Question #2. If God does know the future as in who will do what why does scripture so often depict God not knowing from time to time? (I can give reference if you'd like.)

A couple thoughts:
we know from Isiah that God's "thoughts" and "ways" are not our thoughts and ways. We will never truly understand a limitless God with our limited perception. We also know that there are things we will just have to take on faith. We know that we see now through a mirror darkly. So always strive for knowledge, but don't get frustrated if you need to wait till the next part of our lives to understand fully.

As far as free will, the Bible seems to indicate that God allows us to make choices, even ones that He can see will lead to nothing good. There are times when He intervenes to either fulfill His will or to protect us. Both have numerous examples in the scripture.

This may be a horrible analogy, but I see it like a pet in a large kennel or dog run. Yes the kennel has limitations and boundaries, but within the prescribed space does the animal not have free will? It can sleep on the left or the right. The animal can stand in the sun or the shade. It can pace around or drink water. Limited freedom is still a degree of freedom. Sometimes the master intervenes. The animal is taken out of the pen, or maybe the master may enter into the domain of the animal in order to disentangle it from an obstruction. The animals are on a schedule unknown to them, with feeding times and exercise prescribed by the master. In the same way, we are on a schedule from God. He knows our limitations and cares for us. Unlike animals we actually make conscious choices for good or evil (we have a sense of what is ethical and moral) but the analogy is close. God know what we can not know but He allows us the chance to obey or not, to do His will or not within the boundaries He has set.

How do you see the idea of God prescribing limitations on us with the rest of the passage?

24 “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28 ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’
29 “Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill. 30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

Does verse 30 say that there was a time when He overlooked sin? Does He do so now for those who have no knowledge of His Son coming and dying? How can we have the will to come to Him until we are told by other Christians about His existence? All people may have free will but they cannot choose to follow Christ if they have not met Him, can they? I do not mean to co-opt your thread, but that verse follows directly with the passage you had quoted. He calls all people to repent but many people still have not heard of the Son being born to die for our sins. God marked out their land and knows they live in a place where the gospel has not reached. How is this handled?

[Adstars]

I was reading this the other day and a particular verse jumped out at me and made me ask myself a lot of questions. The text reads as follows.

"24 “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28 ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’"

You'll notice I made verse 26 bold the reason is that is the verse that jumped out at me. I have always questioned free will, and how God handles things such as knowing the future, etc... it is something I don't think I have a firm understanding of and not sure I ever will. However this verse caught my eye perhaps I am reading to much into it but I thought I would get the input of other minds.

I understand how we all come from the blood of one man... we all have a common descendant which is Adam... but the other part of the verse notes that God had "marked their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands." Is this verse stating that God planned things out in such detail that he decided I will create Billy Bob and he'll live in the United States, and exist from 1910-2000

Yes, From scriptures i do believe God foreknew each person that would live through history, not with just basic knowledge as you have stated in your example but He knows us to an intimate detail.

Of course this does not eliminate our free will.

God's Foreknowledge of us does not turn us into zombies. He simply foreknew how we would live our lives and respond to His Will.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Adstars]

Thank you for your replies... I was surprised not many people replied to this thread. However I think its one of the most difficult topics for us to wrap our minds around. Its extremely difficult for me. I want to branch this topic out a bit if you don't mind to get your thoughts, because I honestly want to get a better understanding of God and how he works.

Question #1. Do we have free will? If so how can God know who will or will not obey his will before they even exist? To me it would seem free will wouldn't exist in this type of logic.

God created the universe and a part of the Universe is universe time. God who is separate from the universe exists in His own time that is not related to Our universe time. So God can see all our times from His location.

Free will within the creation can exist and be foreknown when the Creator is not chained to the time His creation dwells within.

2 Peter 3
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Question #2. If God does know the future as in who will do what why does scripture so often depict God not knowing from time to time? (I can give reference if you'd like.)

Please do.


All Praise The Ancient of Days

[Adstars]

Thank you for your response... and the movie analogy however with the movie analogy if you the viewer have never seen the movie you don't know what is going to take place. I wonder from scripture if this is sometimes the case with God. Here are a few examples of what I am talking about and why at least in my mind I have such a hard time with this particular topic.

#1

Gen 6:1-ff - We should all be aware of this passage since it revolves around Noah and the flood. However notice verses 5 & 6 in particular " And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart."

Depending on Translation for repented you'll get the words, regret, sorry, etc... to me this shows that God didn't know it would get this bad, because if I know something isn't going to work out and I am going to be sorry for it or regret it I don't do it... or I will make the changes so that doesn't happen. Thus God did in a way start over by wiping out everything save Noah and his family.

# 2

Gen 18 - Another passage we all know where Abraham begs God not to destroy the city if there are X number of righteous people. However before that story starts notice verses 20 & 21

"And the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; 21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know."

We see God noting he needs to come and see whether or not these things are so... why do that wouldn't he already know?

#3

Gen 22 - Once again another one we are all familiar with Abraham offering Issac but notice verse 12. "And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me."

Why would God say Now I know? Didn't he know already?

#4

1 Sam 15 - We all know Saul is King and it is stripped away and given to David. However notice verse 35 "And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the Lord repented that he had made Saul king over Israel."

Once again we see God was sorry or regretted that he made Saul king. If he already knew why do it?

#5

Rev 2:21 "I gave her time to repent, but she refuses to repent of her sexual immorality."

Why would God give anyone time to repent if he already knew they would not?

Granted there are a lot more examples like the ones above but I think these will suffice to get the idea across of where I am coming from. Let me make one note "I am trying to limit God or say he can't know the future, I am just trying to understand Free Will, an All Knowing God, and how these passages and others harmonize." I just wanted to make that note I think we can discuss without offending anyone and I want to point that out so no one thinks I am trying to limit God or anything of that nature.

I will make one other note before someone else does so... I am sure someone will bring up all the prophecies of Christ and how they all were to the letter. I agree with this, but could it not be God explaining what he is going to do, and he did it. That's somewhat different than stating the unknown or the future. For example, if I say I'm going to eat a bowl of chili at lunch, and I do so... was I telling the future? Not really I just told you what I was going to do and did it.

Thus I think that is how a lot of Biblical prophesies work... God notes what he is going to do and does it... granted it is in his time but he does it.

Granted I know something could prevent me from eating my chili in my example, however when God states he'll do something and this is how he will do it... well we all know nothing will thwart his efforts.

Anyway hopefully that makes sense... let me know your thoughts on the matter.

What if it was Gods plan to conceal His foreknowledge of human history until it was the right time of reveal it?

Jeremiah 1
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[smcllr]

Uric,

God has set a president of talking to man as if he has the the same limitations; in Gen 3 he addresses Adam and Eve as if he didn't know that they had eaten from the tree just as he spoke to Cain about where his brother is. Adam and Eve came clean about what had happened but in the very next chapter Cain did not come clean with God and God turned it around saying, "your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground". That is the part where we typically ask, "if he knew why did he ask or pretend that he didn't?".

The president of God using the anthropomorphic approach is set very early for us and we can see that though God knew he wanted to allow the answer to be given. Maybe so that we are "without excuse". When God told Abraham that he was going to go down and see if the outcry was true but that could be God for Abraham's sake that he is speaking anthropomorphically but you see Abraham's response shows that Abraham knew Sodom was in trouble and still questioned God's own judgment. It sounds to me that God said it in a way that allowed Abraham to consider the possibility that the judgment was not totally settled and also allowed Abraham to stand in the gap for Sodom. He did the same with Moses allowing him to stand in the gap for the Jews at Sinai.

As Far as God saying, "Now I know that thou fearest God" if you look at a strong's you can see that the word know is not the word that is usually translated know but can have the meaning "to show". Again, God has exposed Abraham's fear maybe for himself maybe for Abraham and seeing that Moses included it in the Law, maybe he exposed Abraham's fear for the sake of the readers. As God did not withold his first born neither did Abraham. This story may have been the providence of God to "Show" the example of Abrahams faith to everyone who would come to have the faith of Abraham.

Giving Jezebel time to repent is not for her sake apparently but for God's sake. It serves as an example to all of us and also She is withou excuse on Judgment day.

It's not like I have to reach to get these explanations. They seem perfectly natural to me. And it is not like God has not set a president that though he knew what happened with Cain and Able he gave Cain the opportunity to come clean before he revealed that he knew. The president for God's anthropomorphisms is clear so I am not stumbled by them nor do I try and build a doctrine around them because I can't be too sure they are for our establishing whole doctrines on.

So it is hard to answer you according to your understanding. My understanding of free will is though God has predetermined borders for whole nations he has not predetermined everything for single individuals. And though he can control the will of a man he doesn't always. And though evry page in my book was written down before one of them came to pass God is not the author of sin yet I have sinned so there must also be a co-author. It makes sense to me but you wanted me to make sense to you and I think unless you have that play in your doctrine, you are going to always wonder which of the 2 rigid ones are correct. Some see god controlling the will of a man and say, "there it is. Sovreign graca" others see God giving a choice and say, "God does not touch free will". I see both instances in the Bible and believe that both doctrines are incorrect.

[LookingUp]

I was reading this the other day and a particular verse jumped out at me and made me ask myself a lot of questions. The text reads as follows.

"24 “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28 ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’"

You'll notice I made verse 26 bold the reason is that is the verse that jumped out at me. I have always questioned free will, and how God handles things such as knowing the future, etc... it is something I don't think I have a firm understanding of and not sure I ever will. However this verse caught my eye perhaps I am reading to much into it but I thought I would get the input of other minds.

I understand how we all come from the blood of one man... we all have a common descendant which is Adam... but the other part of the verse notes that God had "marked their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands." Is this verse stating that God planned things out in such detail that he decided I will create Billy Bob and he'll live in the United States, and exist from 1910-2000

If that is the case it seems like the reason God picked out in such detail is stated in verse 27. I'll stop there for now but what are your thoughts on this particular passage?

This passage simply suggests that God is involved in setting temporal ("appointed times") and geographical ("boundaries") parameters around nations. Furthermore, there is nothing in the text that states that God does this "from the foundation of the world" or "from all eternity." God works in people's lives hoping ("perhaps" vs. 27) that they will reach out for him and find him.

[uric3]

Uric,

God has set a president of talking to man as if he has the the same limitations; in Gen 3 he addresses Adam and Eve as if he didn't know that they had eaten from the tree just as he spoke to Cain about where his brother is. Adam and Eve came clean about what had happened but in the very next chapter Cain did not come clean with God and God turned it around saying, "your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground". That is the part where we typically ask, "if he knew why did he ask or pretend that he didn't?".

The president of God using the anthropomorphic approach is set very early for us and we can see that though God knew he wanted to allow the answer to be given. Maybe so that we are "without excuse". When God told Abraham that he was going to go down and see if the outcry was true but that could be God for Abraham's sake that he is speaking anthropomorphically but you see Abraham's response shows that Abraham knew Sodom was in trouble and still questioned God's own judgment. It sounds to me that God said it in a way that allowed Abraham to consider the possibility that the judgment was not totally settled and also allowed Abraham to stand in the gap for Sodom. He did the same with Moses allowing him to stand in the gap for the Jews at Sinai.

As Far as God saying, "Now I know that thou fearest God" if you look at a strong's you can see that the word know is not the word that is usually translated know but can have the meaning "to show". Again, God has exposed Abraham's fear maybe for himself maybe for Abraham and seeing that Moses included it in the Law, maybe he exposed Abraham's fear for the sake of the readers. As God did not withold his first born neither did Abraham. This story may have been the providence of God to "Show" the example of Abrahams faith to everyone who would come to have the faith of Abraham.

Giving Jezebel time to repent is not for her sake apparently but for God's sake. It serves as an example to all of us and also She is withou excuse on Judgment day.

It's not like I have to reach to get these explanations. They seem perfectly natural to me. And it is not like God has not set a president that though he knew what happened with Cain and Able he gave Cain the opportunity to come clean before he revealed that he knew. The president for God's anthropomorphisms is clear so I am not stumbled by them nor do I try and build a doctrine around them because I can't be too sure they are for our establishing whole doctrines on.

So it is hard to answer you according to your understanding. My understanding of free will is though God has predetermined borders for whole nations he has not predetermined everything for single individuals. And though he can control the will of a man he doesn't always. And though evry page in my book was written down before one of them came to pass God is not the author of sin yet I have sinned so there must also be a co-author. It makes sense to me but you wanted me to make sense to you and I think unless you have that play in your doctrine, you are going to always wonder which of the 2 rigid ones are correct. Some see god controlling the will of a man and say, "there it is. Sovreign graca" others see God giving a choice and say, "God does not touch free will". I see both instances in the Bible and believe that both doctrines are incorrect.

I want to take a moment first to thank everyone for their replies. Now to the quote above you make some very good points. I have thought of this as well however with this mindset is a small hitch. An Atheist posed the following "If God had this foreknowledge before creation and knew man would sin, then God created sin. Since he is all know this would make him responsile for the fall." When you look at it that way he had a point, however we know God is just and holy and has nothing to do with sin. So this of course cannot be the case. So how do you prepose to answer the above? If you keep your answer the God is knew sin would enter the world and thus allowed it to happen, so in a way he would have inheritly created sin. Or is it something else?

Note: I am a faithful beliving Christian I am just trying to get a logical answer that I can derive from scripture. (Also I like playing Devils advocate, its a good way to learn from one another.)

[LookingUp]

I want to take a moment first to thank everyone for their replies. Now to the quote above you make some very good points. I have thought of this as well however with this mindset is a small hitch. An Atheist posed the following "If God had this foreknowledge before creation and knew man would sin, then God created sin. Since he is all know this would make him responsile for the fall." When you look at it that way he had a point, however we know God is just and holy and has nothing to do with sin. So this of course cannot be the case. So how do you prepose to answer the above? If you keep your answer the God is knew sin would enter the world and thus allowed it to happen, so in a way he would have inheritly created sin. Or is it something else?

Note: I am a faithful beliving Christian I am just trying to get a logical answer that I can derive from scripture. (Also I like playing Devils advocate, its a good way to learn from one another.)

God may have known that man would eventually "miss the mark" (i.e. sin) but it may have not even entered His mind the degree of wickedness man would stoop to (Gen. 6:6; Jer. 7:31).

[uric3]

God may have known that man would eventually "miss the mark" (i.e. sin) but it may have not even entered His mind the degree of wickedness man would stoop to (Gen. 6:6; Jer. 7:31).

Interesting thoughts, sorry it took me a while to respond I have been really busy with work. I am surprised that no one went against your comment above. Since I am some what playing Devils Advocate I have to ask the following.

You state that "God may have know that man would eventually "miss the mark" but it may have no entered his mind the degree of wickedness man would stoop to..." My first question is if he may have known man would eventually missed the mark would the above statement the atheist made that God is responsible for sin? Also you noted he may have known or that it may have not entered his mind how low man would go... with those statements how could one say that God knows the future?