Tax The Rich?

[Vhayes]

I honestly do not believe that people are having a hard time finding work. In the construction business, all the fellow contractors I talk to all have the same problem I have. That problem is not being able to find enough good help. You can find crack/pot/meth heads that wreck your equipment. You can find young kids that have no work ethic. You can find people who are ticked off because they think construction work is beneath them and they should still be employed in their former line of work making what they used to make. You can find illegals who would be good employees if they were legal. BUT!!!! you cant find enough good help no matter how hard you look.

No argument here. I know for a fact a whole lot of people are in the work force who cannot read and cannot compose a sentence. Let alone spell correctly, do simple mathematical equations or sort through a problem.

We have settled for mediocre in many ways. It needs to change and with the change will come results. But that change is a generation away at the earliest - if we start making those changes right now. When you expect more, you get people working to achieve more. When you reward people for achieving more, you get still more. And so it goes.

I know of a state where people get manufacturing jobs or construction jobs with one purpose in mind; to get injured. They do goofy things, like cut off their fingers with a saw. They are then eligible to collect workers comp and social security disability. The reason? Because they can make "more" that way than they can with a real job. And the reason for THAT? Because the workers compensation for that state is sky-flippin'-high because of ALL THE INJURY CLAIMS and no one has the money to pay their help.

It's a total mess - and it continues on and on and on.

[Reynolds357]

No argument here. I know for a fact a whole lot of people are in the work force who cannot read and cannot compose a sentence. Let alone spell correctly, do simple mathematical equations or sort through a problem.

We have settled for mediocre in many ways. It needs to change and with the change will come results. But that change is a generation away at the earliest - if we start making those changes right now. When you expect more, you get people working to achieve more. When you reward people for achieving more, you get still more. And so it goes.

I know of a state where people get manufacturing jobs or construction jobs with one purpose in mind; to get injured. They do goofy things, like cut off their fingers with a saw. They are then eligible to collect workers comp and social security disability. The reason? Because they can make "more" that way than they can with a real job. And the reason for THAT? Because the workers compensation for that state is sky-flippin'-high because of ALL THE INJURY CLAIMS and no one has the money to pay their help.

It's a total mess - and it continues on and on and on.

I think each generation gets worse, not better.
One of my grandfathers read at about a first grade level. He owned and operated a successful machine shop. He designed and built equipment from scratch that is still being used and copied today. He got a job in maintenance at the cotton mill when he was 12 years old and by the time he was in his late twenties, he was one of the best machinists around. People today still tell me about the stuff he used to build and the work he used to do for them. I had a maintenance contractor tell me a few weeks ago that when he got a machine he could not fix he would come and get my granddad. He said "your grandaddy could look at a piece of steel and tell me where to heat it and where to cool it and it would straighten back out perfectly." This guy has been to every school imaginable and he was getting a man with a first grade education to consult for him. People use lack of education as an excuse more than it is a true barrier. I have absolutely no doubt that if my grandad were alive today he could get a good job in a machine shop easily. Yeah, he learned how to do a lot of stuff on CNC. He could not read much, but his head was a calculator and he could do about any math he wanted to do.

[tango]

No argument here. I know for a fact a whole lot of people are in the work force who cannot read and cannot compose a sentence. Let alone spell correctly, do simple mathematical equations or sort through a problem.

We have settled for mediocre in many ways. It needs to change and with the change will come results. But that change is a generation away at the earliest - if we start making those changes right now. When you expect more, you get people working to achieve more. When you reward people for achieving more, you get still more. And so it goes.

Ironically a lot of the reason behind this is, I believe, because we have got too caught up in the idea that everyone is precious and must never be told they are anything less than ideal. So we end up with teachers who don't correct spelling and grammar, kids turning in essays written in text speak and instead of being told to write properly they are marked based on some concept of self-expression, and rewards given as much for improvement as achievement. Improvement is a great thing but achievement also needs to be recognised. If we don't correct children while they are at school we end up with a situation like is currently reported where people apparently don't understand that signing off an email to their manager with "xoxoxoxo" is inappropriate. We see people unable to differentiate between, and use the correct formation, out of combinations like "your" and "you're", like "their", "there" and "they're" and so on. I've seen people writing the exact words they might speak when hanging out with friends, and reading a written sentence describing a declined opportunity that says "I said no and was like why would I want that" can seriously stretch patience. For good measure more and more people either don't bother with punctuation or capitalisation or apparently don't understand it.

combine a few of the above and the result is all but impossible to understand it can be done but its kinda hard and if your like a bit not with it and not sure what there trying to say it doesnt work very well i think people should make more effort but you know its hard and not everyone wants to

I know of a state where people get manufacturing jobs or construction jobs with one purpose in mind; to get injured. They do goofy things, like cut off their fingers with a saw. They are then eligible to collect workers comp and social security disability. The reason? Because they can make "more" that way than they can with a real job. And the reason for THAT? Because the workers compensation for that state is sky-flippin'-high because of ALL THE INJURY CLAIMS and no one has the money to pay their help.

It's a total mess - and it continues on and on and on.

So the question needs to be whether wages are too low or benefits are too high.

[teddyv]

...For good measure more and more people either don't bother with punctuation or capitalisation or apparently don't understand it.

combine a few of the above and the result is all but impossible to understand it can be done but its kinda hard and if your like a bit not with it and not sure what there trying to say it doesnt work very well i think people should make more effort but you know its hard and not everyone wants to

Irony!

15 char

[tango]

I think each generation gets worse, not better.
One of my grandfathers read at about a first grade level

...

I have absolutely no doubt that if my grandad were alive today he could get a good job in a machine shop easily. Yeah, he learned how to do a lot of stuff on CNC. He could not read much, but his head was a calculator and he could do about any math he wanted to do.

I'd bet your grandad wouldn't get a job in anything but an independently owned machine shop. I get the distinct impression these days most places would rather hire someone with all the pieces of paper that say they know how to do a job, than hire someone with a record of actually doing the job.

[Vhayes]

I'd bet your grandad wouldn't get a job in anything but an independently owned machine shop. I get the distinct impression these days most places would rather hire someone with all the pieces of paper that say they know how to do a job, than hire someone with a record of actually doing the job.

Agreed. I was having the same thought myself when I read Reynolds' post.

For some strange reason that I cannot fathom, experience/ability seems to take a way backseat to hip clothes, the latest gizmos and that all important paper that the company can point to.

As our son used to say, "I don't gets it."

[Vhayes]

Irony!

15 char

Teddy, you gotta quit doing that to me. That makes twice in the last couple of days that tragedy almost befell my keyboard.

[tango]

Agreed. I was having the same thought myself when I read Reynolds' post.

For some strange reason that I cannot fathom, experience/ability seems to take a way backseat to hip clothes, the latest gizmos and that all important paper that the company can point to.

As our son used to say, "I don't gets it."

It's easy enough to explain, it's the HR equivalent of "nobody got fired for buying IBM".

Hire someone with a sharp suit and all the right qualifications and if they turn out to be useless you can fall back on lines like "due processes were followed" and "policies and procedures were fully implemented" to explain why you hired a dud. Hire someone without those pieces of paper and you have to start making subjective judgment calls, like how good they are at the job based on a test you might have to design yourself. Then if the person turns out to be useless you can't hide behind corporate chunder like policies and procedures to explain why you hired someone who was as much use as a chocolate teapot.

[tango]

Irony!

15 char

Fully intentional, as I'm sure you realised

[Reynolds357]

I'd bet your grandad wouldn't get a job in anything but an independently owned machine shop. I get the distinct impression these days most places would rather hire someone with all the pieces of paper that say they know how to do a job, than hire someone with a record of actually doing the job.

All the machine shops I deal with around here are independently owned. I have a friend who has never been to any type technical school that got a job as a machinist at a Caterpillar plant.
He was just a self taught machinist that was good at what he did and decided he wanted a job with good insurance and benefits. Maybe things are different in open shop as opposed to union areas, but around here formal education is not highly valued in the industrial trades. Resume means 100 times more than certificates and degrees.

[Liquid Tension]

Irony!

15 char

Teddy, you gotta quit doing that to me. That makes twice in the last couple of days that tragedy almost befell my keyboard.

[tango]

All the machine shops I deal with around here are independently owned. I have a friend who has never been to any type technical school that got a job as a machinist at a Caterpillar plant.
He was just a self taught machinist that was good at what he did and decided he wanted a job with good insurance and benefits. Maybe things are different in open shop as opposed to union areas, but around here formal education is not highly valued in the industrial trades. Resume means 100 times more than certificates and degrees.

I guess it varies from area to area. I've known people with years of experience get themselves a degree because they knew they'd be unlikely to get a better job without the piece of paper, I've known people with years of experience struggle to get a job in the same field because they don't have the piece of paper. What usually seems to happen is the hiring manager just wants someone who can do the job and ideally hit the ground running but anyone without a degree doesn't get through the HR filtering process regardless of how good they are.