Is it possible to be a Christian without being religious?

[Slug1]

Can you believe and not be in a particular denomination? Of course. Can you shut yourself off in a corner and avoid all other believers. Not if you desire to follow much of scripture.

We are told to love our brothers. Not to forsake gathering together. We are told to take care of the fellow believers (especially the poor/widows/ and orphans). We are told that God desires us to raise our voices in praise and singing.

True religion is done in spirit and in truth
true religion is that which cares for widows and orphans and keeps itself pure from the world.

Amen...........................

[mailmandan]

My view:

When religion is severed from the Christian faith, service and worship of God are done away with, and belief in and reverence for Christ are flushed down the toilet. All that is left is emotional fanaticism that neither honors God nor contributes to the establishment of His kingdom.

What is your view?

The word Religion (2356) (threskeia) means worship or religious service and can refer to a system of external observances as in (Acts 26:5). In simple terms, religion in this context refers to external actions and patterns of behavior. Christianity is best defined not as a religion but as a relationship with a Person, the Lord Jesus Christ. It is possible to be "religious" but not right with God. Just look at the Pharisees. Religion apart from a relationship with Jesus Christ is in vain. James 1:26 - If anyone among you thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this one's religion is useless. This man's religion is vain, empty, devoid of power, lacking in content, nonproductive, dead and of no eternal value. James 1:27 - Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world. There is absolutely nothing wrong with "pure and undefiled religion" but there is certainly something wrong with impure and defiled religion.

[watchinginawe]

Hooah!

Many in the Body of Christ do NOT, due to their religion. Many in the Body of Christ DO, due to their faith.

Faith and being faithful is about a relationship with God and His relationship with man.

Religion and being religious is about a relationship with a religion, or a church, or a denomination and the relationship a religion/church/denomination has with man.

You see, this right here Slug. Come on now. That is ridiculous.

Does where you worship follow any ordinances ever? Yes or no?

Does where you worship have leaders? Yes or no?

Does where you worship have a holy book? Yes or no?

Does where you worship teach any form of doctrine? Yes or no?

Does where you worship meet at regular and predictable times? Yes or no?


Why not just own up to the truth instead of being conformed to a "religious correctness" lexicon of our time? Be the umpire, come on. Call it a ball or a strike. It is just a word. We get the thought, but it is carelessly expressed in a fashion that is crowd pleasing and welcome to itching ears in my opinion.


Let's see how many I can come up with here that the enemy has now claimed...

Religious relationship...

Easy believism...

Greasy grace...

Sloppy agape...

Works salvation...

Professionism...

Happy clapper...

Seeker friendly...

Bible thumper...

Holy roller...

Charismatic...

Signs and wonders...

Oh, can't forget this one, Cemetery (for Seminary)...


Now there are thoughts and teachings behind each one of those statements that are valid, but the thought is at the expense of the word. The statements in my opinion are constructed and used in generating audience reaction to say something about SOMEONE ELSE, in exclusion. Lord convict me if I do likewise, let me explain the thought in terms of me and not at the expense of faceless others, in terms of what we are and not what they are (and thus what we are not).

[Boo]

If "religious" means that we worship God; follow the commands given by Jesus; fellowship with, encourage,and help our brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus; and attempt to lead a sinless life to the best of our ability - the answer is no.

If "religious" means that we follow church doctrine, allow man to teach us his version of what God's message is without verifying for ourselves what the scriptures contain, and stand judge over each other's behavior and condemn those who don't think the way we do - the answer is yes.

Funny how man has made the word "religious" into a four-letter word.

[watchinginawe]

I disagree. Religion is a dead and white washed tomb. Its all form if a true devotion and intimate relationship does not exist. Call it emotional if you wish, but I would rather than have 5 passionate believers than 1000 people who only read doctrine and don't demonstrate devotion to God

I am guarding myself against a contrary spirit. I remembered reading this but didn't remember who posted it.

Notwisthstanding, I understand where you are coming from maybe as a worshiper or someone wanting to get something done for the Lord. For example, Jesus chose only twelve, and one of those was the devil. But, coming from a different viewpoint, how awesome would it be to become a Pastor of 1000 like you describe and see if this stuff really works on such a crowd? What would be the approach? I doubt the first sermon would be the white washed tomb, right? But even helping one would qualify Jesus to visit a town, or go a certain route. Maybe we would get turned out quickly, but maybe more than five passionate believers would be the fruit too.

[amazzin]

It was hypothetical of course and maybe not the most wise example but the point stil remains.

What is religion if its all form? Indeed as you described elsewhere, its the worship aspect that must stand out whereby we are "doers and not simply hearers" who believe solely doctrine and obey/follow a set of rules but not being fruitful for tehe Lord. Maybe its the "clothe" I wear and where my optics lie everyday but there you go...a little more explaining.

Bless you

[poorinspirit]

My view:

When religion is severed from the Christian faith, service and worship of God are done away with, and belief in and reverence for Christ are flushed down the toilet. All that is left is emotional fanaticism that neither honors God nor contributes to the establishment of His kingdom.

What is your view?

I don't see that as religion being done away with, but decency and order. In other words:

When decency and order are severed from the Christian faith, service and worship of God are done away with, and belief in and reverence for Christ are flushed down the toilet. All that is left is emotional fanaticism that neither honors God nor contributes to the establishment of His kingdom.

Let's look at the standard for which all believers will be judged by, because if individual believers will be judged in this fashion, how far behind will the church be?

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Did Jesus forget about the Holy Spirit in how we can honour God the Father? See another reference:

John 13:31 Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. 32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.

Again, the glorifying of the Holy Spirit is not mentioned as a way to glorify God. Is this another oversight?

Why is it written in that way? If we examine the scripture about the role of the Holy Spirit, God may help us to see why.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Can those led by the Holy Spirit speak of the Holy Spirit in seeking the glory of the Holy Spirit? Scripture says no.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: 27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

We are led by the Holy Spirit in serving as a combined witness so that when we preach Jesus Christ and Him crucified all by ourselves individually, the Holy Spirit in us is also bearing witness in order to make our witness true.

John 8:17It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

How we witness and how we are not to witness is exactly the same to the role of the Holy Spirit.

John 5:31If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. 32There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.

John 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

So that is what a true witness does and so as the Holy Spirit serves as a Witness, He will not lead the believer to testify of the Holy Spirit in such a way that seeks His own glory, but testify of the Son in seeking the glory of the Son, and by Him, the glory of the Father. That is the singular mind of Christ we are to have in worship.

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

In songs in worship:

Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. 17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

In fellowship:

1 Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

That is what the real indwelling Holy Spirit is leading us to do just as He is sent to do in testifying of the Son in seeking the glory of the Son and by Him, the glory of God the Father.

So when decency and order is gone when wayward believers ignore the scripture in how we are to honour God the Father soley by way of honouring the Son, they believe every spirit that comes into the worship place to be the Holy Spirit and just go with the flow, never realizing how that spotlight is no longer on the Son in worship, but on these spirits of the antichrist with signs and lying wonders, thinking them to be the Holy Spirit. They do not consider how it is broadening the way in the worship place due to the assumption made by man in forming the Nicene creed that because the Holy Spirit is God which is true, they are to worship the Holy Spirit with the Father and the Son, which is not true and thus suffering a thief to break through.

Do they not call on the Person of the Holy Spirit to come and fall on them again? Do they not believe they can receive the Holy Spirit again and after a sign: as one of them is speaking in tongues that comes with no interpretation? This is the spirit of error.

That is why believers are not to believe every spirit but test them in according to our faith that Jesus Christ is in us: thus that which they "feel" supernaturally coming over them is NOT the Holy Spirit when He is already within you as promised by FAITH in Jesus Christ. It is an adulterous generation that seeks after a sign, and thus when believers are not grounded in the Word to know the will of God, then they run the risk of decency and order vacating from the worship place as well as the fellowship.

Proverbs 25: 26 A righteous man falling down before the wicked is as a troubled fountain, and a corrupt spring. 27 It is not good to eat much honey: so for men to search their own glory is not glory. 28 He that hath no rule over his own spirit is like a city that is broken down, and without walls.

1 Corinthians 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

The fruit of temperance which is self control is the fruit of the Spirit. Wayward believers have rationalized the chaos in the worship place to be as those accused of being "drunken" on the day of Pentecost, and thus accredditing the fruit of joy with drunkenness, but not so. Drunkenness is a work of the flesh and since we are called to do this below:

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

Then the fruit of joy cannot be drunkenness. Indeed, a divided house cannot stand. That is what they get for ignoring the commandment in how we are to approach God the Father in worship.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

By ignoring that in broadening the way in the worship place and how we relate to God the Father, they cause their houses to fall.

Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Matthew 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Luke's account of that particular iniquity begins by showing how to avoid it.

Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Keeping our eyes on the Son, seeking the face of the coming Bridegroom is the will of God in how we are chaste in our reconciled relationship with God THROUGH Jesus Christ.

John 10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. 4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers....

Do not those that seek ANOTHER baptism with the Holy Ghost by the sign of tongues climbing up another way that receives a tongue that comes with no interpretation and thus a strnger's voice? Does not this supernatural tongue exists in the world that comes with no interpretation existing in other world's religions, cults in christianity, and the occult, thus they speak as the world speak and hear as the world hears? Does not this preaching of another Jesus to receive the same as preaching another spirit and after a sign too, which is what an adulterous generation does?

2 Corinthians 11:1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. 2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

They are not honouring the Son by preaching this other calling or this other invitation for believers to heed and seek after. It is a departure from the faith & the rest in Jesus Christ as they enjoy the sensationalism in the flesh of these supernatural experiences.

To seek another filling of the Spirit is to deny Him in us and to void His promise below when we got saved.

John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

They make it as if the Father did not give them the Holy Spirit the first time when they came knocking on the door of Jesus Christ.

Luke 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

By seeking the Holy Spirit again is the same thing as if testifying that they did not receive Him the first time, even though they do say that they had. One cannot receive again what was received: and that was the promise of the permanent indwelling Holy Spirit at our salvation. That is why believers are to examine themselves in the faith when testing these spirits.

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

To say that they agree that He is in us and yet seek to receive Him again is utter hypocrisey & proof of the spirit of error.

1 Timothy 4:1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

There is only ONE drink of the One Spirit, and that occurs at our salvation.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

There is only one baptism with the Holy Spirit, signifying the hope of our one calling in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Misapplying this verse in Ephesians to favour a supernatural phenomenon is not wise when verse 15 is just a call to remain filled in the Spirit as opposing the works of the flesh which is drunkenness: in other words: it is a call to be sober. It did not say to fill yourself up with the Spirit but be filled as in remain filled as in be sober so as to oppose being drunk with wine.

Ephesians 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

One cannot lose the Holy Spirit, but you can overcome temporarily the fruit of temperance by engaging in the works of the flesh. The fact is: Jesus is with us always even when we are foolish which is why we are told this below:

Ephesians 4:20And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

So there is no extra filling to seek as we are filled thus signifying that we are sealed and thus not a leaky vessel and thus saved which is why believers are to preach Jesus Christ and Him crucified and no other sensational supernatural calling.

Matthew 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

Ephesians 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

So it is not really religion you are talking about, but the decency and order in the worship place of honouring the Son and thereby honouring the Father in worship.

Those that worship the Spirit are not worshipping God in spirit and in truth, but as if they OUT of Spirit and apart from the Truth.

Wayward believers need to consider which they love more: vain and profane babblings and sensationalism of chaos in the worship place with other signs and wonders for calling on the Person of the Holy Spirit to come or the simple faith in Jesus Christ. They cannot do both.

2 Timothy 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

Any manifestation of God will bring about this report:

1 Corinthians 14:25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: 28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Any manifestation of God in the worship place and felt outside of us IS the spirit of the antichrist.

1 John 4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

Do take note the term "is come" means presently. This is not about doubting Jesus Christ had ever come in the flesh, but this is about our faith in Jesus Christ in that He is in us: like 2 Corinthians 13:5 & Colossians 1:27-28 are testifying of. As we read on, we will see by His help and His grace that this is the actual meaning of His words in the message being conveyed about testing the spirits.

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. 7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

Yes: we are to love those even astray, but when they refuse correction, there is that call to withdraw to admonish them.

2 Thessalonians 3:1 Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you: 2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith. 3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil. 4 And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you. 5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ. 6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. 7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;.....14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

So I agree with your view except for the use of the term "religion" as I do see that as what man can do. It is the decency and order in our relationship with God through Jesus Christ as well as fellowship and worship that I agree should be maintained by His help and by His grace, because Jesus is the Bridegroom and we are led by the Spirit to honour the Son and thereby honouring God the Father which is the will of God to do and the standard of judgment hanging over every believer when the Bridegroom comes.

[Watchman]

What is religion if its all form?

Etymologically, religion is conduct indicating belief in a divine power, respect for God. If this conduct is all form, then it is a powerless form of godliness. If this conduct is all form, our hearts are far from it. If this conduct is preplanned to the point that the Holy Spirit is disallowed from control, then it is soulish, fleshly, dead.

blessings,

Watchman

[Watchman]

...the standard of judgment hanging over every believer when the Bridegroom comes.

Have we not already been judged; consequently, Christ died? Would you clarify, please? Thanks.

W

[Boo]

Etymologically, religion is conduct indicating belief in a divine power, respect for God. If this conduct is all form, then it is a powerless form of godliness. If this conduct is all form, our hearts are far from it. If this conduct is preplanned to the point that the Holy Spirit is disallowed from control, then it is soulish, fleshly, dead.

blessings,

Watchman

Very true, but again the subjective evaluation will follow.

If religion is a large gathering of people who follow all their emotions in the service to the detriment of the teaching and worship, it is also a dead self-serving religion. When the worthip of The Father takes back seat to those who desire to attract attention to themselves and prove themselves "spiritual," it is merely a religion of man and not God.

Those who have been given discernment will know the difference. Some will not.

[amazzin]

Hey boo, there is wisdom in these words. Thanks

Very true, but again the subjective evaluation will follow.

If religion is a large gathering of people who follow all their emotions in the service to the detriment of the teaching and worship, it is also a dead self-serving religion. When the worthip of The Father takes back seat to those who desire to attract attention to themselves and prove themselves "spiritual," it is merely a religion of man and not God.

Those who have been given discernment will know the difference. Some will not.

[poorinspirit]

Have we not already been judged; consequently, Christ died? Would you clarify, please? Thanks.

W

I think you need to clarify your statement some more. As it is there is a necessity to judge as in to correct to avoid the judgment of condemnation which is not the same as the condemnation that is coming on the world for not believing in Jesus Christ, but the condemnation of being that vessel unto dishonour in His House for not being found abiding in Him in His words and in the faith:

1 Corinthians 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Philippaisn 1:9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; 10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ.

1 Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.....12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Of course, if the excommunicated believer has finally repented, then he or she is allowed back in to fellowship.

[Watchman]

Etymologically, religion is conduct indicating belief in a divine power, respect for God. If this conduct is all form, then it is a powerless form of godliness. If this conduct is all form, our hearts are far from it. If this conduct is preplanned to the point that the Holy Spirit is disallowed from control, then it is soulish, fleshly, dead.

blessings,

Watchman

Very true, but again the subjective evaluation will follow.

If religion is a large gathering of people who follow all their emotions in the service to the detriment of the teaching and worship, it is also a dead self-serving religion. When the worthip of The Father takes back seat to those who desire to attract attention to themselves and prove themselves "spiritual," it is merely a religion of man and not God.

Those who have been given discernment will know the difference. Some will not.

Subjective evaluation sans discernment is judgment, yes?

Emotional display is soulish unless motivated by the Spirit. I've been around those who wish to show themselves to be 'spiritual' by calling attention to themselves, and it is trying.

[Slug1]

You see, this right here Slug. Come on now. That is ridiculous.

This is why I don't think it's ridiculous and why I said what I said. So without naming the "religion" I practiced for about 15 years of my life (a reason for this would be way too long), I experienced that religion will "change" the way they do services. The changing of these "rituals" was due to peoples choice because for many years (generations), the ritual was NOT to change because leadership would NOT allow any changing of the rituals.

People began to leave the religion and through simple surveys of "why"? The religion began to cater to those who LEFT in an attempt to get them back and also to prevent MORE from leaving. So, YEARS and GENERATIONS of ritual came to an end to appease a few who left the religion.

Did this help that religion... NOPE! Just proved that the religion is nothing more than a means of manipulation and this manipulation adjusts to regain control when control begins to be lost.

Those who don't leave that religion will sway and bend any way the religion tells them to... all in the name of Christ.

Now... when people serve God and God has placed them in a church somewhere to do work or to learn... they stay for the learning and equipping that God will do TO them or through them. Life may require movement to a new location and thus they leave that church and we all know that shoudl this happen, that God has a new church for them to serve and/or learn at. Or God may tell them that they are done and He moves them out to do bigger and better things because they are now equipped or completed DOING the equipping of those in the church God placed them to serve Him.

But to leave because a "ritual" that is a tradition for generations and this ritual isn't "liked"... IS GOD IN that ritual in anyway?

Especially when the "religion" CHANGES the traditions and rituals after generations because people are leaving?

No... such a religion is ALL ABOUT man, NOT God.

[Ceegen]

My view:

When religion is severed from the Christian faith, service and worship of God are done away with, and belief in and reverence for Christ are flushed down the toilet. All that is left is emotional fanaticism that neither honors God nor contributes to the establishment of His kingdom.

What is your view?

I have faith, service to, and worship of God, with or without a church.

Nothing we will ever do will help God establish His kingdom, lest of all on this earth. He can (and will) do it on His own, and I trust that promise.