Total Depravity

[14390876]

If we are totale depraved, how can we recognise a good God? Because if we are totale depraved then our experience of God through our senses will also be depraved and our reading of scripture will also be depraved then how can we be sure that the God we are experiencing or reading about is really good? Do you see what i'm saying?the doctrine of total depravity makes no sense to me. I do not deny that we are sinful and evil, but I don't think we completely sinful and evil. We can't save ourselves, nor can we earn our salvation. But I do believe we can recognise good and that means we have some good, which God made, so the glory still goes to Him.

[andrew_no_one]

If we are totale depraved, how can we recognise a good God? Because if we are totale depraved then our experience of God through our senses will also be depraved and our reading of scripture will also be depraved then how can we be sure that the God we are experiencing or reading about is really good? Do you see what i'm saying?the doctrine of total depravity makes no sense to me. I do not deny that we are sinful and evil, but I don't think we completely sinful and evil. We can't save ourselves, nor can we earn our salvation. But I do believe we can recognise good and that means we have some good, which God made, so the glory still goes to Him.

God must make us able to respond to Him, cause us to be able to understand scripture and even faith comes from God. Man is unable to come to Christ unless drawn by the Father.
Ephesians 2:1-5
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions —it is by grace you have been saved.

[-SEEKING-]

Actually 143, from what I understand, that's NOT what the doctrine of TD means. It's not that there's no good in us at all, rather that our Depravity is a condition we are born in due to the sin we inheretid from Adam.

[andrew_no_one]

Actually 143, from what I understand, that's NOT what the doctrine of TD means. It's not that there's no good in us at all, rather that our Depravity is a condition we are born in due to the sin we inheretid from Adam.

It is my understanding that it is a bit of both.

[14390876]

Ok, this is steadily going towards calvanism and i am not a calvanist nor an armenian. I am safely in the middle. And because these things have been debated there and back again over many years, i will just say that what seeking say makes sense to me. I have a different understanding of the passages you have used, Andrew my friend. I respect your point of view though.

[andrew_no_one]

Ok, this is steadily going towards calvanism and i am not a calvanist nor an armenian. I am safely in the middle. And because these things have been debated there and back again over many years, i will just say that what seeking say makes sense to me. I have a different understanding of the passages you have used, Andrew my friend. I respect your point of view though.

We're good my elephant overpopuated friend. Think about this: What if man's free will existed INSIDE God's sovereignty?

[14390876]

Yes it is certainly possible. To be totally honest i dont really know what the whole truth is here. I just know more or less what my stance is. I do know one thing: however evil or sinful I may be, God is good and by the Blood of Jesus He has saved me and He is faithful and able to keep me from falling, and whats more, He will, thanks to His grace present us before the Father without blemish. Praise God that He has shown me this kindness. And if He is able to do it for me He can do it for anyone.

[Scooby_Snacks]

I think EPhesians 2:1-5 is pretty clear.

Titus is similar...

For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another. But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
(Titus 3:3-7 ESV)

Apart from Him, my good is always connected to something about me rather than others. That is the difference I most relate to?
What is going on inside to drive decisions or works? Is it The Lord, or is it me?

God says that I am valuable. There is a difference between being a wonderfully made creature, and what drives me to act, spiritually or otherwise.

There is a difference between an unregenerate man giving good gifts to his children *good being determined by an act that displays something that is outward show. A good gift does not mean the giver is good. It means they know what will please another person, thus getting a "good" feeling from giving it for themselves.

God is good and cannot NOT be good. He is good because He just is. He does not need any ego boosts. He does not need anyone to make Him good. He has no ulterior motives. He is pure.

Anyways, Ive been thinking about this area of doctrine. It is important for me to remember that I am valuable. It takes the sting out of the glimpses He has shown me of my own depravity, that seen at one time, would completely collapse my mind.

I can say all the things i think have been good pre-Christ and after, but He knows the works since saved that wil make it through the kiln.

[-SEEKING-]

10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad

(Coughs)

[John146]

Romans 9:10-23


10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad —in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,


“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

16 It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory —

I appreciate that you quoted scripture but do I need to guess how you interpret it or will you tell me? I don't see how this passage answers the questions that I asked you or how it addresses the points that I made. We could just post scripture back and forth without any commentary but that doesn't really make for a very good discussion.

[andrew_no_one]

I appreciate that you quoted scripture but do I need to guess how you interpret it or will you tell me? I don't see how this passage answers the questions that I asked you or how it addresses the points that I made. We could just post scripture back and forth without any commentary but that doesn't really make for a very good discussion.

What does that mean exactly? Are you saying that we are incapable of doing good in the sense of doing what is right (what God requires)? We are all sinners (Rom 3:23) so the right thing for sinners to do is repent of their sins and put their faith in Christ and trust in His blood to wash away their sins. Are you saying we are incapable of doing that?

If people are naturally purely evil and incapable of anything good then how do you explain people not having any excuse for not glorifying God as God and being thankful to Him (Rom 1:18-20)?

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Yes. But not being "morally excellent and of the highest quality" doesn't mean someone is not able to differentiate between right and wrong and does not mean they are incapable of doing what is right (in terms of what God requires).

He said so it's true. Period. No one is good. Of course, we have to determine what that means exactly.

Hello!
Yes, I am saying that we are incapable of doing good in the sense of doing what God requires. Yes! We are all sinners so the right thing for us to do is repent and put our faith in Jesus Christ and trust His sacrifice as the only payment for our sin.
And yes, I am saying that we are incapable to doing that (repentance and faith) UNLESS God grants us repentance and gives us faith. These are not things we are able to act out on our own without Him.
People still have no excuse for failing to honor God because He has shown Himself to be Who He is through natural revelation (nature) and His Word (and the testimonies of those He's saved). However, a person is unable to ACT on these revelations unless God allows them to come to Him in faith. As He said, He will have mercy on who He has mercy.
Yes, people ARE able to differentiate between right and wrong because God has given us each a conscience that condemns us when we do wrong (unless we ignore it to the point it's been seared as with a hot iron).
When faced with a decision to do or not do evil, we can all choose to not do the evil thing....but our actions to not then default to "good"; it just means we didn't act on that specific evil at that specific time.
If we were able to do what the Law requires, we could save ourselves through our own obedience. As it were, we cannot and must rely wholly and entirely on the performance of Christ, repenting even of trying to earn our own merit.

[John146]

God must make us able to respond to Him, cause us to be able to understand scripture and even faith comes from God.

Faith in Christ does not come from God, it comes from a decision one makes in their heart in response to God's calling to repentance and faith.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

If God gives people faith then why would Paul have said "with the heart man believeth unto righteousness" instead of saying "with faith given to him by God man believes unto righteousness"? Faith comes from our hearts, not directly from God. Does God want people to believe willingly or does He force people to believe?

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Notice that this doesn't say that the water of life is given freely, it says it must be willingly taken freely. It is not given without any requirement of it being accepted. It is offered but must be accepted. Man has the responsibility to humbly accept God's offer of eternal life by way of putting his faith in Jesus Christ.

Man is unable to come to Christ unless drawn by the Father.

But can someone resist His drawing? It appears that you don't believe so, but scripture indicates that they can. If you read Matthew 22:1-14 you should see that many are called to salvation but relatively few answer the call. The reason given for people not answering the call is not that they weren't drawn and weren't given faith and therefore couldn't answer the call, it's that they were not willing to answer the call and accept the invitation to enter into a personal relationship with Christ.

Matt 22:And Jesus answered and spoke to them again by parables and said: 2 “The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son, 3 and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come.

The following shows an example of someone being drawn to Christ but resisting it.

Acts 26:25 But he said, “I am not mad, most noble Festus, but speak the words of truth and reason. 26 For the king, before whom I also speak freely, knows these things; for I am convinced that none of these things escapes his attention, since this thing was not done in a corner. 27 King Agrippa, do you believe the prophets? I know that you do believe.” 28 Then Agrippa said to Paul, “You almost persuade me to become a Christian.” 29 And Paul said, “I would to God that not only you, but also all who hear me today, might become both almost and altogether such as I am, except for these chains.”

Do you think God wanted King Agrippa to be saved? I certainly do. Paul certainly wanted him to be saved (see verse 29). Yet, King Agrippa couldn't quite take the next step and put his faith in Christ. He acknowledged that Paul "almost persuade me to become a Christian". So, why did he not become a Christian? Was it because God didn't give him faith or was it because he chose not to believe despite finding Paul's teaching to be persuasive? Could he have potentially become a Christian or not? If not then would you say he was mistaken in claiming that Paul almost persuaded him to become a Christian? I believe he really was almost persuaded to become a Christian and that God was working on him but the decision to believe in Christ was ultimately his and he decided not to do so.

Ephesians 2:1-5
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions —it is by grace you have been saved.

Christ came to call sinners to repentance (Matt 9:13). Sinners are those who are "dead in transgressions". Therefore, Christ fully expected those who were "dead in transgressions" to have the ability to repent or else He wouldn't have commanded them to do so. Being "dead in transgressions" does not mean someone is unable to repent and put their faith in Christ without God doing it for them.

[andrew_no_one]

Acts 4:27-29
Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen. Now, Lord, consider their threats and enable your servants to speak your word with great boldness.

Herod and Pontius Pilate (among others) were (are) objects of God's wrath whom He carried with great patience to the day of their destruction.

[andrew_no_one]

If you (or I) have been saved, we've been saved based on God's mercy alone and not on our own desire or effort.

Romans 9:15-17


For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”


And you see also that Pharaoh was an object of wrath, directed only to destruction.

[John146]

Hello!
Yes, I am saying that we are incapable of doing good in the sense of doing what God requires.

But scripture does not say that. I'm sure you would agree that God requires people to repent. Christ called sinners, the people who you say are incapable of doing what God requires, to repentance, right? Was He mistaken or was He right in calling them to repent, which implies that they had the ability to do so? If they didn't have the ability to repent then what sense would it be to call them to repent? I believe Jesus clearly implied that sinners were fully capable of doing what God requires as far as what He requires people to do in order to be saved is concerned.

Yes! We are all sinners so the right thing for us to do is repent and put our faith in Jesus Christ and trust His sacrifice as the only payment for our sin.
And yes, I am saying that we are incapable to doing that (repentance and faith) UNLESS God grants us repentance and gives us faith.

Except that is not taught anywhere in scripture. Why don't you share the scriptures that you're basing your opinion on and we can discuss those.

These are not things we are able to act out on our own without Him.

We are not puppets. Yes, He makes sure the gospel is preached and He speaks to people's hearts regarding their sin but He does not force anyone to repent and believe. Every person is responsible to make the choice of whether to repent and believe or not. Why would God command all people everywhere to repent (Acts 17;30-31) if not all people everywhere were capable of doing so?

People still have no excuse for failing to honor God because He has shown Himself to be Who He is through natural revelation (nature) and His Word (and the testimonies of those He's saved).

So, what do you believe is the reason that some fail to honor God, keeping in mind that they have no excuse for failing to do so?

However, a person is unable to ACT on these revelations unless God allows them to come to Him in faith.

What does that mean exactly? How does that work? Please be as specific as possible. Can the process be compared to a puppet master pulling his puppet's strings to get it to do what he wants or is it different than that?

As He said, He will have mercy on who He has mercy.

That's right. He can do whatever He wants because, you know, He's God. I'm completely fine with that. But is that the whole story? Who does He wish to have mercy on? How do you interpret the following passage:

Romans 11:30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

Yes, people ARE able to differentiate between right and wrong because God has given us each a conscience that condemns us when we do wrong (unless we ignore it to the point it's been seared as with a hot iron).
When faced with a decision to do or not do evil, we can all choose to not do the evil thing....but our actions to not then default to "good"; it just means we didn't act on that specific evil at that specific time.

You lost me here. It would be helpful if you posted scripture to support what you're saying.

If we were able to do what the Law requires, we could save ourselves through our own obedience.

I am not saying that we can be saved by doing what the law requires. Scripture clearly teaches otherwise. But we are saved by our faith in Christ.

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

It's true that no one can be justified by keeping the law but it's not true that man is not responsible to do anything at all in order to be justified. This and many other passages teach that we must put our faith in Jesus Christ in order to be saved and justified.

Edit: I see that you responded to my other post but I would appreciate it if you would specifically address the passages I quoted and the comments I made first before I address the passages you quoted and your comments.