Slowly but surely....

[divaD]

Maybe this was already covered here; if so, I wasn't paying attention. But what do you do with verse 25?

25 "So you are to know and discern [that] from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince [there will be] seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. If messiah was killed at the conclusion of week 69, was the messiah born then also? Seems like a person would need to fit 30+ years at the conclusion of week 69.

Wouldn't one also have the same problem if Jesus is killed in the middle of the 70th week? Wouldn't that only be 3 and 1/2 years after the conclusion of the 69th week?


When do you see the Messiah being born within this 70 weeks? Whenever it would be, there would still have to be 30 plus years after that until He dies.

But maybe I'm misunderstanding you tho? Could you elaborate some more?

[divaD]

BroRog, here was the point I was trying to get at in my last post, but forgot to mention it. If the Messiah can be cut off in the midst of the 70th week 30 plus years after He is born, then why couldn't the same be true if He is cut off at the conclusion of the 69th week, meaning 30 some years after He was born? Logically, if being cut off means His death, there still has to be 30 plus years in front of that, which means that He would have to be born in the the 64th or 65th week, tho I haven't checked the math, so just taking a wild guess here.

[BroRog]

BroRog, here was the point I was trying to get at in my last post, but forgot to mention it. If the Messiah can be cut off in the midst of the 70th week 30 plus years after He is born, then why couldn't the same be true if He is cut off at the conclusion of the 69th week, meaning 30 some years after He was born? Logically, if being cut off means His death, there still has to be 30 plus years in front of that, which means that He would have to be born in the the 64th or 65th week, tho I haven't checked the math, so just taking a wild guess here.

I think we are on the same page with regard to the challenge we face while searching for the correct interpretation of this passage. The correct interpretation will be able to explain both of Gabriel's comments with reference to the timing of the messiah. What did he mean by "until the messiah, seven weeks and sixty two weeks" and what did he mean by "after the sixty two weeks" messiah cut off?

What does the term "until" usually indicate?
A process or set of conditions will remain true up to a point in time,
at which time another event takes place changing the process or the
set of conditions in a significant way. Let me illustrate this with an outline.

First set of conditions

A. Restoration and rebuilding of Jerusalem.
B. Duration of the process: seven plus sixty-two weeks.

Event that changes the initial condition

A. Messiah the prince.
_a. possible events that Gabriel might mean.
__1. Birth of messiah
__2. Baptism of messiah
__3. Triumphal Entry
__4. Resurrection of messiah

Conclusion

The restoration and rebuilding of Jerusalem is a process that will continue unabated for an entire period of 69 weeks. This will remain true up to the point in time when the messiah arrives on the scene. Whatever Gabriel has in mind, whether the birth, baptism, triumphal entry, or resurrection of the messiah, this event will be pending during the rebuilding and restoration process, which was predicted to take 69 sevens of years, or 25,185 days.

Possible meanings of the term "after"?

A. A time immediately following the significant event.
_a. The very next day: Day 25,186.
_b. A day close enough to day 25,185 to count as immediately after, perhaps a week or even a month after.

B. Any time after the event.
_a. the initial conditions have ended and the process has stopped.
_b. time has run out and any time after that will do.

C. Next in a sequence.
_a. the next significant event after the initial conditions is the death of the messiah.

D. The very next "Seven".
_a. Not simply a posterior time after the initial conditions have ended.
_b. During the next time period subsequent to the previous time periods.
_c. Sometime during the seventieth Seven.

Conclusion

Test for possible interpretations:

I. Messiah the prince = birth of Jesus
II. Cut off the next day
_a. Messiah is born on day 25,185
_b. Messiah is cut off on day 25,186
_c. Therefore Jesus is killed one day after he is born.

Not likely. Jesus is cut off approx. 30 years after birth, well outside the 70 sevens.

I. Messiah the prince = baptism of Jesus
II. Cut off the next day
_a. Messiah is baptized on day 25,185
_b. Messiah is cut off on day 25,186
_c. Therefore Jesus is killed one day after he is baptized.

Again, not likely. Jesus spends approx. 3.5 years in ministry after his baptism.

I. Messiah the prince = Triumphal Entry
II. Cut off the next day
_a. Messiah enters Jerusalem on day 25,185
_b. Messiah is cut off on day 25,186
_c. Therefore Jesus is killed one day after he enters Jerusalem as the triumphal king of Israel.

More likely, but not precisely. Jesus was cut off at least a week later if not more than a week.

*I. Messiah the prince = resurrection of Jesus
II. Cut off the next day
_a. Messiah is resurrected on day 25,185
_b. Messiah is cut off on day 25,186
_c. Therefore Jesus is killed one day after he is resurrected.

Logically impossible. *I present this only to fill out the matrix.

Anyway we cut it, I find it unlikely that the sentence,
"after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off"
refers to the very next day: day 25,186

What about D. The very next "Seven"?

I. Messiah the prince = birth of Jesus
II. Cut off during the very next seven
_a. Messiah is born on day 25,185
_b. Messiah is cut off sometime during the next seven (between day 25,185 and 27,740)
_c. Therefore Jesus is killed one to 2,555 days after he is born.

Not likely. Jesus was approx. 30, not 7 years old when he was cut off.

I. Messiah the prince = baptism of Jesus
II. Cut off during the very next seven
_a. Messiah is baptized on day 25,185
_b. Messiah is cut off sometime between day 25,185 and 27,740
_c. Therefore Jesus is killed one to 2,555 days after he is baptized.

Also Possible. Jesus spends approx. 3.5 years in ministry after his baptism before being cut off.

I. Messiah the prince = Triumphal Entry
II. Cut off during the very next seven
_a. Messiah enters Jerusalem on day 25,185
_b. Messiah is cut off sometime between day 25,185 and 27,740
_c. Therefore Jesus is killed one to 2,555 days after he enters Jerusalem as the triumphal king of Israel.

Possible but not likely. Jesus was cut off a short time after the triumphal entry but not that long after.

I. Messiah the prince = resurrection of Jesus
II. Cut off during the very next seven
_a. Messiah is resurrected on day 25,185
_b. Messiah is cut off sometime between day 25,185 and 27,740
_c. Therefore Jesus is killed one to 2,555 days after he is resurrected.

Again, impossible.

[markedward]

A point worth bringing up. Some English versions intentionally skew the text in translation (whether by punctuation or reordering of words) to make the first two periods appear as a single one. But three periods are explicit in the text of Daniel (7, and 62, and 1). Not two periods (69 and 1). Conflating the first two periods (7 and 62) into a single one (69) completely defeats the purpose of there being there being three periods mentioned (7, and 62, and 1). But this is essentially required in a scheme that finds a climax in Jesus, because within this scheme nothing happens between the first two periods.

In this particular case, translations like the BBE, ERV, ESV2, ESV3, RSV (even the KJV 1611!) are more accurate than the likes of the ASV, Darby, DRC, EBR, HCSB, ISV, KJV, LXXE, NET, PCE, SLT, VW, WEB, Webster, or YLT, because the former ones rightfully distinguish the first and second periods and what is associated with them.

[Cyberseeker]

What did he mean by "until the messiah, seven weeks and sixty two weeks"?

possible events that Gabriel might mean.
__1. Birth of messiah
__2. Baptism of messiah
__3. Triumphal Entry
__4. Resurrection of messiah

May I focus on this part of your detailed question? I believe the correct answer is #2. Baptism of Messiah. Unfortunately, the wording seems to reduce the importance of this event - doesn't sound as 'awesome' as the other things you've mentioned.

However, it needs to be remembered that this event was more than a simple water baptism; it was Gods announcement that the Christ of God had come. And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” (Matt 3:17) So I describe, "until the messiah" as the REVELATION of CHRIST at his baptism!

It is also worth noting how, John the Baptist proclaims at Jesus' baptism, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!" (John 1:29) referring directly to the purpose of the 'weeks' being to bring an end to transgression and sin.

[BroRog]

May I focus on this part of your detailed question? I believe the correct answer is #2. Baptism of Messiah. Unfortunately, the wording seems to reduce the importance of this event - doesn't sound as 'awesome' as the other things you've mentioned.

However, it needs to be remembered that this event was more than a simple water baptism; it was Gods announcement that the Christ of God had come. And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” (Matt 3:17) So I describe, "until the messiah" as the REVELATION of CHRIST at his baptism!

It is also worth noting how, John the Baptist proclaims at Jesus' baptism, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!" (John 1:29) referring directly to the purpose of the 'weeks' being to bring an end to transgression and sin.

I think I agree with that. Thanks.