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Thread: * Joshua 7?

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    * Joshua 7?

    I'm reading Joshua 7 and this make me boil with anger toward God and Joshua. Who is the God talking in Joshua 7? Is it the Father, the Son (Jesus) or the Holy Spirit? God told Joshua and the Israelites to stone Achan and his INNOCENT sons and daughters because he stole a robe, silver and gold. What will God do with the gold and silver anyway, and why is God so cruel? The gold and silver will just go to Joshua or the Head Priests to make them wealthier.

    Btw, how did the Lord talked to Joshua? Silently in Joshua's head or in a loudspeaker-like voice so people around can hear?

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    Re: * Joshua 7?

    Quote Originally Posted by republic15 View Post
    I'm reading Joshua 7 and this make me boil with anger toward God and Joshua. Who is the God talking in Joshua 7? Is it the Father, the Son (Jesus) or the Holy Spirit? God told Joshua and the Israelites to stone Achan and his INNOCENT sons and daughters because he stole a robe, silver and gold. What will God do with the gold and silver anyway, and why is God so cruel? The gold and silver will just go to Joshua or the Head Priests to make them wealthier.

    Btw, how did the Lord talked to Joshua? Silently in Joshua's head or in a loudspeaker-like voice so people around can hear?
    One of God's commandments is "Thou shalt NOT STEAL" from Exodus 20:15.

    Under "The Law", the penalty for sin, is death. Under the sin of Adam, the whole generation dies...

    However!

    Jesus, who is "The Law" made flesh, was nailed to the cross, and died. Jesus was the perfect Passover sacrifice. But the law didn't die, it was resurrected; and we now have forgiveness of sins in Jesus who is God in the flesh. The temple in Jerusalem was destroyed by Rome in 70 AD, exactly 40 years after Jesus' death. It also rained and poured for 40 days and 40 nights in the days of Noah. Moses spent 40 years wandering in the desert. Jesus fasted for 40 days. 40 is a special number, a spiritual index, meaning "trials and testing". It's all true [the law], but Jesus told us that "He who is without sin, cast the first stone."

    But we are now called to be non-violent, in Jesus who is Christ. Basically God is telling us, "Hold on, I got this one guys. Don't fight them, plead with them. I will fight for you, don't make the mistake of passing the judgment of death upon your fellow man, only I AM righteous enough to judge you all."

    We're all sinners under the law, but we are forgiven in Jesus' anointing blood. God has no need to require blood by our hands, He will do it Himself. Don't worry about the evil in the world, God will take care of it.
    Last edited by Ceegen; Aug 20th 2012 at 07:48 PM.
    John 10 (KJV)
    27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

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    Re: * Joshua 7?

    Well, I assume the innocent with the guilty thing is similar to other situations where absolute discipline must be enforced by draconian measures. In militaries, for example, units are held accountable for one person's actions.

    he's cruel because he made everything and can by defintion rightfully do whatever he pleases?

    I don't know how.


  4. #4

    Re: * Joshua 7?

    God in "Joshua" try to act all righteous but is a hypocrite. He told Joshua and the Israelites to conquer Babylon to steal their gold and silver. Achan kept some of the gold and silver for himself, but his sons and daughters get killed for that. What a cruel God! Wasn't Jesus part of the Triune God during Joshua time too, and was Jesus responsible in deciding the stoning of the innocent sons and daughters of Achan?

    In Joshua 6, God told Joshua and the Israelites to go destroy Jericho and kill all men, women and children. How cruel! If God ask you to go kill a child, would you do it?

    Also, in Numbers 31, God told Moses to kill all the Medianites including babies, but would keep the virgin female as sex slaves. Umm, this sound like the Allah of the Koran. What God would act like that? That's the mind of a psychopath - to kill babies and enslave virgn girls. Then in the New Testament, God is all nice and forgiving - making God look like Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde. Any explanation?

    Btw, you didn't answer my first questions in the first post.

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    Re: * Joshua 7?

    Quote Originally Posted by republic15 View Post
    God in "Joshua" try to act all righteous but is a hypocrite. He told Joshua and the Israelites to conquer Babylon to steal their gold and silver. Achan kept some of the gold and silver for himself, but his sons and daughters get killed for that. What a cruel God! Wasn't Jesus part of the Triune God during Joshua time too, and was Jesus responsible in deciding the stoning of the innocent sons and daughters of Achan?

    In Joshua 6, God told Joshua and the Israelites to go destroy Jericho and kill all men, women and children. How cruel! If God ask you to go kill a child, would you do it?

    Also, in Numbers 31, God told Moses to kill all the Medianites including babies, but would keep the virgin female as sex slaves. Umm, this sound like the Allah of the Koran. What God would act like that? That's the mind of a psychopath - to kill babies and enslave virgn girls. Then in the New Testament, God is all nice and forgiving - making God look like Dr. Jekyll & Mr. Hyde. Any explanation?

    Btw, you didn't answer my first questions in the first post.
    I have no idea how to go about answering the first question about precisely who God was. how would i have an answer for that?

    I don't know that a reading of say Matthew, will leave the taste in your mouth that the NT god is suddenly a fluffy teddy bear.

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    Re: * Joshua 7?

    Allow me to share an explanation I have in a book that I have found to be a great help with issues like this:

    Joshua 7:1, 10-11. Was It Achan or All Israel That Sinned?
    It is not clear from the first verse of Joshua (Joshua 7:1) whether the whole nation was unfaithful or just one man, Achan. But if it was only one man who sinned, as the story later discloses, why was the transgression imputed to the whole nation? It would appear that Achan alone should have been punished on the principle that "the soul who sins is the one who will die" (Ezekiel 18:4).
    Another troubling feature in this text is the identification of the "devoted things." What were they, and why should their possession jeopardize the Israelites' mission of attacking Ai?

    The best way to begin is to start with the question of the "devoted things." This is a very distinctive concept in the Old Testament. The word used, ḥerem, means the "curse" or, more accurately, the "thing dedicated for destruction." This word comes from the verb "to separate"; hence the Arabic word harem, an enclosed living area set aside for women. In many ways, the act of dedicating ḥerem is the reverse of the voluntary dedication spoken of in Romans 12:1-2. Both are acts of separating oneself or something unto God. But in the case of ḥerem, the placing of an item under "the ban," or its dedication "to destruction," is an involuntary act, whereas what is "holy" to the Lord is separated unto him as a voluntary act.

    Behind this concept lies the fact that all the earth and all that is in it belongs to the Lord. After mortals had tried the patience of God to the limit, he finally stepped in and required that what he owned should come back to him. The judgment of fire and death meant that all life and all gifts returned to the Lord, their owner. Items that could not burn, such as silver, gold and certain metals, were declared to belong to the Lord. They were to be placed in the tabernacle or temple of God. They had been set apart for destruction and hence were sacred.

    Under no circumstances could these items be sold, collected or redeemed by substituting something else for them. There was a compulsory dedication connected with them. Jericho was one of the few places to be placed under this curse or ban in the Old Testament (Joshua 6:21). Other such cities included Ai (Joshua 8:26), Makkedah (Joshua 10:28) and Hazor (Joshua 11:11).
    Interestingly, the word ḥerem is the last word in the Old Testament canon (in English order). Malachi 4:6 warns that God might come and take a "forced dedication" if men and women persist in refusing to give a voluntary one.

    Perhaps it will be seen, now, why Achan's sin was viewed with such severity. He had done more than take several battle mementos; he had robbed God of items that specifically indicated that he was the Lord of the whole earth and should have received praise and honor from the Canaanites of Jericho.

    Make no mistake: Achan was responsible for his own sin. Whether other members of his family were participants in the crime cannot be determined for certain, though it seems likely. Joshua 7:24 tells us that "his sons and daughters, his cattle, donkeys and sheep, his tent and all that he had" were brought to the Valley of Achor ("trouble"), and there "all Israel stoned him" (Joshua 7:25). While the text begins by focusing on Achan, saying they "stoned him," it continues noting that "they stoned the rest" and "they burned them." Thus it would appear that the children were accomplices to the crime.

    Since Achan had violated the ban and brought the goods from Jericho into his tent, he in essence made his tent, its contents and whatever was under the aegis of that tent part of the destruction and judgment that was on Jericho.

    Finally, we must ask why the whole nation was viewed by God as an organic unity. Can the sin of one member of the nation or group defile everyone?

    That is exactly the point made by this text. It is not difficult to see how the goodness of one person can bring blessing on the whole group. God blessed the whole world through Abraham (Genesis 12:3). And we rarely complain when we enjoy the blessing and accumulated goodness of God on our nation as a result of the godly lives of our ancestors.

    In a real sense, our acts do have ramifications beyond our own fortunes and future. The act of one traitor can imperil a battalion of soldiers, a nation or a multinational corporation. In the same way, one thoughtless act of a member of a community can have enormous consequences for the whole group.

    This in no way bears on the ultimate destiny and salvation of any one of the persons in that group, but it can have enormous implications for the temporal and material well-being of each member.

    When an individual Israelite violated a specific command of God, it brought sin on the whole group. In that case, the sin ignited the anger of God against the whole group. Achan was not acting merely on his own behalf when he sinned. As a leader among the clans of the important tribe of Judah, he had committed sacrilege; he had stolen what God had declared to be both sacred and separated from ordinary objects. Such a crime was aimed directly at God and at his covenant. It impinged on his right to be Lord and infringed on his rights of ownership. It had to be dealt with immediately and severely, just as did the sin of Ananias and Sapphira in the New Testament (Acts 5).

    God holds each person individually responsible for his or her own sin; that is clear. But some, by virtue of their position or office, their offense against that which is sacred to God, or the implications that their acts have for their group, can also bring the wrath of God on their nation, community, institution or group. There are times where we are our nation's keepers. When we deny or ignore this reality, Western individualism runs amuck and biblical truth is neglected.
    —Hard Sayings of the Bible

    There is a great point to be made here. Our actions, our choices, affect more than just our individual soul and body. We affect those around us. Choosing to sin or to do good works is much more important than just individual results. We don't like that idea in our society, but it is a divine truth.

    I really do recommend that you may want to get this book for your library.

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    Re: * Joshua 7?

    Quote Originally Posted by republic15 View Post
    I'm reading Joshua 7 and this make me boil with anger toward God and Joshua. Who is the God talking in Joshua 7? Is it the Father, the Son (Jesus) or the Holy Spirit? God told Joshua and the Israelites to stone Achan and his INNOCENT sons and daughters because he stole a robe, silver and gold. What will God do with the gold and silver anyway, and why is God so cruel? The gold and silver will just go to Joshua or the Head Priests to make them wealthier.
    I can remember reading this and going wow..the punishment was severe..but God gave fair warning:

    “Shout, for the Lord has given you the city. 17 And the city and all that is within it shall be devoted to the Lord for destruction. Only Rahab the prostitute and all who are with her in her house shall live, because she hid the messengers whom we sent. 18 But you, keep yourselves from the things devoted to destruction, lest when you have devoted them you take any of the devoted things and make the camp of Israel a thing for destruction and bring trouble upon it. 19 But all silver and gold, and every vessel of bronze and iron, are holy to the Lord; they shall go into the treasury of the Lord.”

    It reminds me of the deception of the serpent to Eve... The thought enters the mind of Achan "You will not surely die".
    Achan was responsible over his family, by coveting the items meant for destruction, he lead not only his entire family into death, but all of Isreal was affected by his sin.
    Jesus was not yet advocate for sin, they were still under the curse of the law.
    It appears this family was given to Gods wrath that all of Isreal would learn from their tragic end.
    Its hard to look at...
    Praise God His wrath has now been poured out upon His own Son that we might be freed from the curse.
    Peace to You!
    Scooby (ette)

    Psalm 40:11

    As for you, O Lord, you will not restrain
    your mercy from me;
    your steadfast love and your faithfulness will ever preserve me!

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    Re: * Joshua 7?

    Quote Originally Posted by republic15 View Post
    Btw, you didn't answer my first questions in the first post.
    I did, but you didn't like the answer. You want more reasons why righteous and perfect God is actually evil instead of good, as an excuse to not worship Him, right? Well too bad, God punishes righteously. If He had them do things a certain way, then I am sure there is a reason for that which relates to their sins. I do not, nor will I pretend to know what those reasons are, but no one is good or perfect except God.

    How do you really know any of the people punished by God didn't deserve it?

    But a better question would be, does God really want to punish us? The answer to this is a definite "No". Jesus died so we could be forgiven of our sins, and that is all that matters. If you want to ignore that part of it, then no one can help you. If you're caught up in rejecting God, simply because He is worthy enough to judge even the unborn, knowing what sins the unborn will commit even before birth; then no one here can satisfy your conscious, or your higher moral code that you apparently have which makes you place yourself above God.

    You're a sinner, just like the rest of us. Instead of fighting against God's perfect moral code, try to understand it. You need Jesus too, like it or not, and He is more than willing to forgive you. He loves us all, and doesn't want to punish us, but has to because of His perfect moral standard that no human could ever hope to attain.
    John 10 (KJV)
    27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

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    Re: * Joshua 7?

    God can do whatever He wants. You may not like that, but it doesn't change anything. Because you lack the power to move to a universe where God does not exist. By the way, He heard you calling Him a hypocrite. Yet you are evidently still alive. Why do you think that is?
    Even so, come Lord Jesus!

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