The Prince Who is to Come.

[divaD]

Re-read the text. It isn't "a" man, it is simply "man of sin". I believe "man of sin" is already seated in the temple. Of course, I hope you understand the church is the temple.

Pretty much my conclusions as well, believe it or not.

[jesse]

Your bible is twisted from the one on the internet. KJV says:
Rev 17:9-11 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. (10) And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. (11) And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.


"And there are kings" does NOT mean "They (mountains) are kings". The seven heads / mountains are spoken of in vs. 9. Vs. 10 tells us about 7 kings of which 5 are fallen. Different subjects and predicate. 7 heads/mountains of the beast are not referring to the 8 kings mentioned in the next verse.

So you see no relation between 7 mountains and then the 7 kings mentioned in the next verse and you don't see the kings as being people even though most kings throughout history have been people? And you don't see the two beasts in particular as people even though they are said to be kings?

[Raybob]

So you see no relation between 7 mountains and then the 7 kings mentioned in the next verse and you don't see the kings as being people even though most kings throughout history have been people? And you don't see the two beasts in particular as people even though they are said to be kings?

I see kings as a different topic than the mountains. Yes, I see kings as people. No, I don't see two beasts as two people, at all. No, the beasts are not said to be kings. The "beast that was" was a king but he gave power to "the beast".

[jesse]

I see kings as a different topic than the mountains. Yes, I see kings as people. No, I don't see two beasts as two people, at all. No, the beasts are not said to be kings. The "beast that was" was a king but he gave power to "the beast".

Ok... I think I finally see what you are saying.

You think the first beast... is the 8th king. Where as I have been saying the first beast is the 7th king and the second beast is the 8th. Is that right?

I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. The beast that thou sawest was, and is not;..... and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder. Rev 17:7-8

Clearly the first beast from Rev 13 that has "seven heads and ten horns" and "all the world wondered after the beast". Then the phrase "was and is not" is used to distinguish him here in Rev 17 but is not used in chapter 13... so it is new info.

And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth (presumably king) Rev 17:11

So here we see the 8th king... not the 7th is the first beast.

Is that what you are getting at?

Then what is the second beast of Rev 13 that has two horns and speaks as a dragon?

It must be the false prophet?

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. Rev 19:20

Rev 13 says the second beast works "miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast" etc.

[Raybob]

Ok... I think I finally see what you are saying.

You think the first beast... is the 8th king. Where as I have been saying the first beast is the 7th king and the second beast is the 8th. Is that right?

No, I believe the 8th king mentioned has to do with history. That is the "beast that was, and is no more".

Rev 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. The beast that thou sawest was, and is not;..... and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder. Rev 17:7-8

Clearly the first beast from Rev 13 that has "seven heads and ten horns" and "all the world wondered after the beast". Then the phrase "was and is not" is used to distinguish him here in Rev 17 but is not used in chapter 13... so it is new info.

And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth (presumably king) Rev 17:11

So here we see the 8th king... not the 7th is the first beast.

Is that what you are getting at?

Then what is the second beast of Rev 13 that has two horns and speaks as a dragon?

It must be the false prophet? ...

No, I'm not getting at that at all. The beast that ascends from the pit is the same one that got locked into the pit at the cross. I don't believe 'the beast' is a man at all.

Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

[jesse]

No, I believe the 8th king mentioned has to do with history. That is the "beast that was, and is no more".

Rev 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.


No, I'm not getting at that at all. The beast that ascends from the pit is the same one that got locked into the pit at the cross. I don't believe 'the beast' is a man at all.

Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

I don't know man. The 8th king has to do with history... But it is talking about a future king isn't it? It is saying he will come.... so it must still be talking about future.... no?

Where does it say the beast was locked in the pit at the cross? What is the beast then?

You know... dentists get paid a lot of money to pull teeth....

[Raybob]

I don't know man. The 8th king has to do with history... But it is talking about a future king isn't it? It is saying he will come.... so it must still be talking about future.... no?

Could be. It was future to John, when he wrote it, we know that.

Where does it say the beast was locked in the pit at the cross? What is the beast then?

I believe that's what Rev. 20:4 shows a vision of, when Christians began to live and reign on earth.

Rev 20:2-4 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, (3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. (4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Christ had to bind the enemy, so that we could live free in Him.

Mat 12:28-29 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. (29) Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

[Gilligan]

I think it was Titus, the son of Emperor Vespasian. The "people of the prince" was the Roman army.

[David Taylor]

I wonder how many are aware that in the near future a man will come claiming to be God. He will have a 3 and 1/2 year ministry. At the end of which he will die and be resurrected. Another man will preform great and miraculous signs on his behalf and cause the whole world to worship him with the exception of a few. No Christians will attend the worship service.

You have a serious flaw in your prediction.

There will be no man who dies and is resurrected. That is a very flawed interpretation of those highly symbolic passages.

Only God has the power to resurrection someone from the dead. No evil dictator can do it. No vile clergyman can do it. Satan himself, definately does not have the power to do it.

Any there is no scriptural evidence whatsoever, that God will raise a wicked ungoldly man from the dead in the future.

The only time resurrections have ever been done biblically, is to bring glory to God; by God; for the benefit of God's people.

God would never raise a wicked man whose goal is to usher and grow the kingdom of Satan across the world.

And noone except God has the power and authority to raise the dead.

[smcllr]

According to Luke, the "People of the Prince who is to come" was a reference to the Roman armies under Titus who destroyed the city and the sanctuary.

You do realize that Daniel was told that in 7 weeks from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem, that it would be rebuilt, right? And that city and its sanctuary was destroyed in AD70? Therefore, there is only one people who could be credited with that.

[DurbanDude]

1.The kingdoms include kings.

2.The Kings are people

3.The two beasts are kings.

Then we are saying completely different things. Horns/heads/beasts are kingdoms. Only sometimes are they referring to the leader of a kingdom (a king)

In Daniel 2 we have two kingdoms , two feet of iron and clay. I believe clay represents religion, and so we have two religious kingdoms that produce the ten kingdoms. I believe these are Europe (Roman Empire) and Turkey (Byzantium/Ottoman Empire).
In Daniel 7 the "small" kingdom dominates the 3 kingdoms and the ten kingdoms.
In Rev 13 we have two religious kingdoms (two horns of one beast/kingdom) that give their power to the ten-part kingdom. I believe these are Europe and Turkey.

Europe and Turkey used to be united under the Roman Empire, but they had a "fatal wound" and were split into two empires. I believe they will unite again , the split will be healed, as they set up the new ten-part kingdom. At the moment Israel/Europe/USA are military allies. But strangely Turkey/Europe/USA are also military allies. This makes Turkey an indirect ally of Israel.

The antichrist is the leader of this new ten-part kingdom.

[ross3421]

I wonder how many are aware that in the near future a man will come

It would seem sooner than later. Matt 24:7 will bring him to center stage.

claiming to be God.

Yes. So if he claims to be God then all things with Christ's return he needs to counterfit.

He will have a 3 and 1/2 year ministry.

Yes he will be on the earth for 42 months.

At the end of which he will die and be resurrected.

Scriptures never states he dies or is resurrected.

3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

See that "one" of his heads we wounded unto death. Notice this event happened in heaven in chapter 12. The man which goes upon earth is not the same head but one after. The world will wonder after him not beacuse of the wounded head (those on earth may not even be ware of this as it happeened in heaven) but becuase of the miricles.

Another man will preform great and miraculous signs on his behalf and cause the whole world to worship him with the exception of a few

There are not two different individuls. The first beast is a piture of the entity of Satan's kingdom within it contains the second beast which is a man of sin.

All will worship him hence there cannot and will not be any Christians upon the earth. The 144,000 God will be the only ones to repent prior to his return and be saved.

.

No Christians will attend the worship service.

Again not any to attend.

[ross3421]

[QUOTE]

Well that "king" is fundamentally evil. I believe Rev 13 is referring to seven consecutive kingdoms, because there are no really satisfying sets of seven consecutive kings.

The seven kings are seen on earth together........they make up the kingdom. In God's kingdom seven are part of the church it would seems to think these seven are part of the church of Satan's kingdom would they not?

Read with Rev 17, we see those seven are consecutive,

Consecutive? When the beast arises it has 7 heads. They are probably on the earth all together as the city is supported by these 7 and then 5 fall and so on under God's judgment.

3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

If the beast itself is the 8th one, and ONE OF THE SEVEN HEADS is wounded, this means its NOT the beast that was wounded, but a previous empire colsely related to the beast.

Let look at parrallel's to get the answer. God has 7 churches which Christ is the 8th likewise Satan the same.

I believe the seven heads are as follows:
Egypt
Assyria
Babylon
Persia
Greece
Rome (5 were and 1 is, Rome dominated when that was written)
Divided Rome (this is the wounded empire, Europe in the west, Turkey in the east)
Future Middle Eastern Empire (the wound is healed, an alliance empire between Europe, Turkey and Israel is set up)

Fourth kingdom is yet to be on the earth.

40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

Dan 2 is a picture of the 4 kingdoms.

Dan 7 is a picture of only this fourth kingdom divided into four parts.

Dan 11 then is these 4 parts divided of the fourth kingdom. Thus we are still in the kingdom of Grecia.

Babylon
Persia
Greece - divded into 4 parts

Fourth future kingdom notice it contains the seven heads.

Lion- head 1
Bear- head 2
Leopard- heads 3,4,5,6
Beast- head 7

[smcllr]

[SIZE=2]I wonder how many are aware that in the near future a man will come claiming to be God......... blah blah blah

Probably no one because the Bible doesn't actually say any of that. What the Bible does say that God gave apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.

If that is why God gave us the apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers then we have got a long way to go. We need to take our eye off of newspapers and put them back on the body of Christ. Jesus is coming back for a bride, not a bag lady.

[DurbanDude]

[QUOTE=ross3421;2896054]

The seven kings are seen on earth together........they make up the kingdom. In God's kingdom seven are part of the church it would seems to think these seven are part of the church of Satan's kingdom would they not?



Consecutive? When the beast arises it has 7 heads. They are probably on the earth all together as the city is supported by these 7 and then 5 fall and so on under God's judgment.

they are consecutive, 5 were and 1 is, and one is to come.

17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.