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Thread: Sinners vs. Saints....

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    Sinners vs. Saints....

    I am doing a bible study about this very topic.... Everyone should know that the phrase "Sinner saved by grace " has always bugged me.... And when I get to a pc I will elaborate.... What would be great is answers to the question "Do you think God differentiates between sinner and saint?"

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    Re: Sinners vs. Saints....

    Quote Originally Posted by MaryFreeman View Post
    I am doing a bible study about this very topic.... Everyone should know that the phrase "Sinner saved by grace " has always bugged me.... And when I get to a pc I will elaborate.... What would be great is answers to the question "Do you think God differentiates between sinner and saint?"
    Paul was not ashamed of the Gospel. It was because Paul understood the power behind it. He went from being the chief of all sinners to being a faithful Christian, a faithful saint. You might have known someone who, from a worldly standpoint, was a terrible sinner. Yet they changed and became a Christian. They were baptized for the forgiveness of their sins, and now they are living a faithful Christian life. The Gospel can do the same thing for us if we let it.

    We are set free from sin when we obey God (Rom. 6:7,22). What about the idea that some people try to use to justify themselves. They look at what Paul was saying and they say, “Well, Paul was the chief of all sinners, so therefore I can be the chief of all sinners.” They then use the justification of, “You sin; I sin; we all sin; and it’s fine.” Yet Romans 6:1-2 says that we cannot continue in sin so that grace may abound.

    Once Paul was converted, and once Paul was a faithful Christian, he was no longer the chief of all sinners. In fact, he was a faithful saint. Ecclesiastes 2:26makes the distinction between a sinner and one of God’s faithful. Notice what the Scripture says. “For God gives wisdom and knowledge and joy to a man who is good in His sight, but to the sinner He gives the work of gathering and collecting, that he may give to him who is good before God. This also is vanity and grasping for the wind.” There is a distinction made between a sinner and one of God’s faithful.

    In the New Testament, in 1 Peter 4:18, we read the same thing. “If the righteous one is scarcely saved, where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?” We need to get the mindset out of our heads that we are all sinners and that it doesn’t matter because ”everybody is a sinner.” The Bible doesn’t teach that.

    It’s true that a faithful Christian can sin. And if he wants to continue to walk in the light as 1 John 1:7-9 says, then he must repent of that sin and ask God’s forgiveness. If he does not, then he will err and fall from the grace of God as Galatians 5:4 says. But if have been baptized for the forgiveness of our sins, if we are living a faithful Christian life, and if we fall short, repent, and ask God to forgive us of that sin, 1 Corinthians 14:33 calls us “saints.” We are saints.

    So we need to make sure that we take away the mindset of “Well, I’m no saint. I’m just a sinner.” If you are one of God’s faithful, you are a saint. We need to be proud that we are God’s faithful, and that we are living lives with God.
    All scripture quoted from KJV

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    Re: Sinners vs. Saints....

    Quote Originally Posted by Dilligence View Post
    Paul was not ashamed of the Gospel. It was because Paul understood the power behind it. He went from being the chief of all sinners to being a faithful Christian, a faithful saint. You might have known someone who, from a worldly standpoint, was a terrible sinner. Yet they changed and became a Christian. They were baptized for the forgiveness of their sins, and now they are living a faithful Christian life. The Gospel can do the same thing for us if we let it.

    We are set free from sin when we obey God (Rom. 6:7,22). What about the idea that some people try to use to justify themselves. They look at what Paul was saying and they say, “Well, Paul was the chief of all sinners, so therefore I can be the chief of all sinners.” They then use the justification of, “You sin; I sin; we all sin; and it’s fine.” Yet Romans 6:1-2 says that we cannot continue in sin so that grace may abound.

    Once Paul was converted, and once Paul was a faithful Christian, he was no longer the chief of all sinners. In fact, he was a faithful saint. Ecclesiastes 2:26makes the distinction between a sinner and one of God’s faithful. Notice what the Scripture says. “For God gives wisdom and knowledge and joy to a man who is good in His sight, but to the sinner He gives the work of gathering and collecting, that he may give to him who is good before God. This also is vanity and grasping for the wind.” There is a distinction made between a sinner and one of God’s faithful.

    In the New Testament, in 1 Peter 4:18, we read the same thing. “If the righteous one is scarcely saved, where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?” We need to get the mindset out of our heads that we are all sinners and that it doesn’t matter because ”everybody is a sinner.” The Bible doesn’t teach that.

    It’s true that a faithful Christian can sin. And if he wants to continue to walk in the light as 1 John 1:7-9 says, then he must repent of that sin and ask God’s forgiveness. If he does not, then he will err and fall from the grace of God as Galatians 5:4 says. But if have been baptized for the forgiveness of our sins, if we are living a faithful Christian life, and if we fall short, repent, and ask God to forgive us of that sin, 1 Corinthians 14:33 calls us “saints.” We are saints.

    So we need to make sure that we take away the mindset of “Well, I’m no saint. I’m just a sinner.” If you are one of God’s faithful, you are a saint. We need to be proud that we are God’s faithful, and that we are living lives with God.


    How do we understand this passage from the Gospel?

    The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank thee that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week, I give tithes of all that I get.’ But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for every one who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted” (Luke 18:11–14).

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    Re: Sinners vs. Saints....

    Quote Originally Posted by guero View Post
    How do we understand this passage from the Gospel?

    The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank thee that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week, I give tithes of all that I get.’ But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for every one who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted” (Luke 18:11–14).
    The Pharisee stood and prayed with himself, "Stood," in the original, means that he struck a pose, or assumed an attitude where he could be seen; the condemnation is not so much upon the standing in prayer as it is upon the posture assumed merely to be seen of men. He made no humility, piety, or reverence. He prayed "thus with himself"; some think that this means that he only prayed mentally or in silence, others think that it means that the Pharisee standing by himself prayed these things.

    He first gave thanks, which was an important part of his communication with God. He thanked God that he was "not as the rest of men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican." He thanked God that he was made separate from sinners, as he thought; he did not feel any need of God's pardon, for he counted himself as being righteous.He trusted in himself that he was sufficiently righteous to merit God's favors. "Extortioners", the original means a robber and plunderer, grafters, like the publicans. "Unjust" means one who deals unfairly with his fellows, one who is unjust in feelings and attitude toward others. "Adulterers" those who have transgressed the law in relation to others, those who have violated the law that requires a pure life.

    He seemed to reach the end when he thanked God that he was not "even as this publican." There is no evidence that he knew anything about the man except that he was a publican. He sustained an attitude of contempt toward the publican. After looking at himself negatively, and feeling that he was righteous, he then began to tell the Lord about his good deeds. He said: "I fast twice in the week; I give tithes of all that I get." In his egotism and self-righteousness he has used the pronoun "I" five times in this short prayer. The only fast positively enjoined was on the day of atonement, the tenth day of the seventh month. (Lev. 23:27.)
    All scripture quoted from KJV

  5. #5

    Re: Sinners vs. Saints....

    One thing I have trouble understanding is the transition of saint to sinner-the opposite in a sense.

    The chosen people go from worshiping God to worshiping a golden calf even after the miracles God performed to save them-how do you explain that?

    David, a man after God's own heart and given exceptional personal skills by God turns into an adulterer and a murderer/

    King Saul blessed by God disobeys the creator of his power and suffers for it.

    Solomon, the wisest man on earth in his time throws that gift away and leads a life overindulged in greed and lust with women.

    Judas, a soldier of Christ, betrays his master for a bit of money.

    How different would you act if you received miracles of incredible power and witnessed the hand of God in your life.
    Is our human nature so weak, even in God's presence we sin?
    I for one am guilty and repentant but why does history keep repeating itself? How do you overcome it all?

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    Re: Sinners vs. Saints....

    Heres a thought.... What if shrugging your shoulders and saying you are just a sinner saved by grace is an act of self indulgence? Meaning what if it is a license to sin....

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    Re: Sinners vs. Saints....

    Quote Originally Posted by MaryFreeman View Post
    Heres a thought.... What if shrugging your shoulders and saying you are just a sinner saved by grace is an act of self indulgence? Meaning what if it is a license to sin....
    I would never shrug my shoulders unless I was an unrepentent sinner...

    Context is important here:

    Romans 11:6 (KJV)
    6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

    This chapter is of the prophetic kind. It was by the spirit of prophecy that the apostle foresaw the rejection of the Jews, which he supposes in the two preceding chapters. For when he wrote the epistle they were not in fact, rejected, seeing their polity and Church were then standing. But the event has proved that he was a true prophet. For we know that in about ten or eleven years after the writing of this letter the temple was destroyed, the Jewish polity overthrown, and the Jews expelled out of the promised land, which they have never been able to recover to the present day.
    All scripture quoted from KJV

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    Re: Sinners vs. Saints....

    Quote Originally Posted by MaryFreeman View Post
    I am doing a bible study about this very topic.... Everyone should know that the phrase "Sinner saved by grace " has always bugged me.... And when I get to a pc I will elaborate.... What would be great is answers to the question "Do you think God differentiates between sinner and saint?"

    I think it depends on what a person “hears” with the phrase you mentioned...
    “Sinner saved by Grace.”

    I do not feel offended by the phrase myself, because I hear something like the lyric’s to Amazing Grace---
    I once was lost (a sinner) but now am found (Saved by Grace)

    Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
    That saved a wretch like me....
    I once was lost but now am found,
    Was blind, but now, I see.


    I do not hear “I am currently sinning, but am saved by Grace, so its no big deal”.

    Hear the difference?

    As far as the question…does God differentiate-- From those who are lost and found?

    Heres a thought.... What if shrugging your shoulders and saying you are just a sinner saved by grace is an act of self indulgence? Meaning what if it is a license to sin....
    If you know personally Christians who shrug at sin, how do you approach them?
    Peace to you!

    Psalms 138:7-8
    Though I walk in the midst of trouble, you preserve my life;
    you stretch out your hand against the wrath of my enemies, and your right hand delivers me.
    The Lord will fulfill his purpose for me; your steadfast love, O Lord, endures forever.
    Do not forsake the work of your hands.

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    Re: Sinners vs. Saints....

    Quote Originally Posted by Dilligence View Post
    The Pharisee stood and prayed with himself, "Stood," in the original, means that he struck a pose, or assumed an attitude where he could be seen; the condemnation is not so much upon the standing in prayer as it is upon the posture assumed merely to be seen of men. He made no humility, piety, or reverence. He prayed "thus with himself"; some think that this means that he only prayed mentally or in silence, others think that it means that the Pharisee standing by himself prayed these things.

    He first gave thanks, which was an important part of his communication with God. He thanked God that he was "not as the rest of men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican." He thanked God that he was made separate from sinners, as he thought; he did not feel any need of God's pardon, for he counted himself as being righteous.He trusted in himself that he was sufficiently righteous to merit God's favors. "Extortioners", the original means a robber and plunderer, grafters, like the publicans. "Unjust" means one who deals unfairly with his fellows, one who is unjust in feelings and attitude toward others. "Adulterers" those who have transgressed the law in relation to others, those who have violated the law that requires a pure life.

    He seemed to reach the end when he thanked God that he was not "even as this publican." There is no evidence that he knew anything about the man except that he was a publican. He sustained an attitude of contempt toward the publican. After looking at himself negatively, and feeling that he was righteous, he then began to tell the Lord about his good deeds. He said: "I fast twice in the week; I give tithes of all that I get." In his egotism and self-righteousness he has used the pronoun "I" five times in this short prayer. The only fast positively enjoined was on the day of atonement, the tenth day of the seventh month. (Lev. 23:27.)
    I guessed I keyed in on the Lord's words:

    I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for every one who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted

    Do we think we are not sinners once we are "saved"?

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    Re: Sinners vs. Saints....

    Quote Originally Posted by MaryFreeman View Post
    Heres a thought.... What if shrugging your shoulders and saying you are just a sinner saved by grace is an act of self indulgence? Meaning what if it is a license to sin....
    Then it's not true repentance.

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    Re: Sinners vs. Saints....

    Quote Originally Posted by guero View Post
    I guessed I keyed in on the Lord's words:

    I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for every one who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted

    Do we think we are not sinners once we are "saved"?
    Think about it this way. A sinner has the promise of eternal condemnation. But a sinner is not in Hell yet. Why? Because he can change.The promise is conditional. He can change his life, repent, and become a Christian. We are not judged based upon what we did 25 or 30 years ago. Rather, we are judged by the way we are living our lives now.

    If we have repented of our sins, if he have changed, if we have come to Christ, and if we have had our sins washed away in baptism, then we no longer are sinners, and we have the promise of eternal life.

    But in the same way, if we had our sins washed away 25 or 30 years ago, the Lord added us to the church (Acts 2:47).But if are not faithful, then we no longer have the promise of eternal life because we have fallen from the grace of God. Yes, we have a promise, but the promise comes with conditions.
    All scripture quoted from KJV

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    Re: Sinners vs. Saints....

    Quote Originally Posted by Dilligence View Post
    Think about it this way. A sinner has the promise of eternal condemnation. But a sinner is not in Hell yet. Why? Because he can change.The promise is conditional. He can change his life, repent, and become a Christian. We are not judged based upon what we did 25 or 30 years ago. Rather, we are judged by the way we are living our lives now.

    If we have repented of our sins, if he have changed, if we have come to Christ, and if we have had our sins washed away in baptism, then we no longer are sinners, and we have the promise of eternal life.

    But in the same way, if we had our sins washed away 25 or 30 years ago, the Lord added us to the church (Acts 2:47).But if are not faithful, then we no longer have the promise of eternal life because we have fallen from the grace of God. Yes, we have a promise, but the promise comes with conditions.

    I'm sorry - I think I am not grasping some mainstream belief here.

    Is the belief that once we become Christians we are no longer sinners?

    There is a difference in the washing away of our ancestral sin and the complete elimination of sin in our daily lives, would you not agree?

    If sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4) and all the law and the prophets hang on the Lord's commandments to love God with all one's heart, soul, and mind and to love one's neighbor as oneself (Matthew 22:37), then we sin whenever we fall short in this (Maybe I am the only one who does not constantly love God and neighbor as commanded, in which case please forgive me).

    I suppose one could appeal to the other verse in 1 John, Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not (1 John 3:6), but I would take this as an admonition and not an assurance. When we sin, we are separated from God and need to ask His forgiveness and come back to him, for indeed He that committeth sin is of the devil (1 John 3:8).

    The joy in being a Christian is precisely that we have a loving and forgiving God who receives us joyfully whenever we go away from Him and return (cf. Matthew 15:11-32, Parable of the Prodigal Son).

  13. #13

    Re: Sinners vs. Saints....

    I think you will have to elaborate on your 'bug' a little more but the only difference that I see from God's point of view is that one is lost the other found.
    A saint in my eyes is a sinner who has taken on board wholeheartedly the sacrifice that God made for us and continuously lives under that umbrella, one who in confessing his/her sin is constantly under the protection and saving grace of our Lord.
    A sinner refuses to acknowledge Gods amazing grace or indeed that there is any need for it.
    Both are loved by our Lord
    I've probably completely missed your point but it's nice to have you back!

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    Re: Sinners vs. Saints....

    Is it easier to see ourselves as sinners? Or saints.... Personally I find it easier to see myself as a sinner rather than how God sees me through the blood of His Son....

    Do you sin every day?

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    Re: Sinners vs. Saints....

    Quote Originally Posted by MaryFreeman View Post
    Is it easier to see ourselves as sinners? Or saints.... Personally I find it easier to see myself as a sinner rather than how God sees me through the blood of His Son....

    Do you sin every day?
    Unfortunately, yes.

    I certainly don't see myself any better than Paul, who accused himself of being the chief sinner (1 Timothy 1:15)

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