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Thread: Struggle with faith in the Bible (Moved from Bible Chat since OP is not a Christian.)

  1. #1

    Struggle with faith in the Bible (Moved from Bible Chat since OP is not a Christian.)

    Ok, so this is probably going to be long, but I'm just gonna lay it all out. So I have gone back and forth on being a Christian. I have been a hardcore Christian and I have been a complete athiest not believing in God at all. I am now right in the middle. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that God exists based on logical evidence and facts. Just a heads up, I am a mathematics major who uses logic and reason habitually, so please try to make logical sense when answering my questions. Anyways, I am having a tough time having any kind of faith in the "Holy Bible". I don't mean to offend anybody by putting that in quotes, but the entire book seems to contradict itself in several locations.

    First off, it says that God loves us all equally and unconditionally. Yet it also says that if we don't obey his will, we are going to be sent to Hell for eternity. This is probably what bothers me the most about Christianity as a religion. It seems like Christians believe that it is ok to force people to be like them because it is best for that individual (such as making gay marriage, prostitution or drugs illegal). Many denominations even say that God doesn't like gay people. Does that seem very Godly to you though? I thought Jesus was preaching love, tolerance and acceptance, and yet man has decided that he now has the capacity to judge what is morally right and wrong according to the word of God. Some people say that it is God who punishes the world for our indifference to sin. But that doesn't sound like a Just and Merciful God that the Bible talks about. At one point in the Bible, he wiped out the entire world except for one family. He killed thousands of men, women and children. He killed little innocent babies who had done nothing wrong. He didn't even give mankind a chance to recover from a life of sin, he simply cleared the entire slate clean. All of those people also, according to the bible, are going to suffer in Hell for eternity. Where is God's love for them then? I don't understand why a person who only has a handful of decades to live and be tested on his morality, and then it is decided where he will spend an eternity, and if he misses heaven by just a few points, then he'll go to hell forever.

    My other problem with the bible is the blind faith that I am told to have in it. While I enjoy reading the messages in the Bible, and I find them moving in my own way, I also simply don't believe them all. In fact, I think a large majority of the bible is simply wrong. I am just wondering if I will go to Hell for not believing in the Bible? Here is what I do believe: Jesus came to earth, Jesus was the son of God, Jesus had wonderful teachings about love, acceptance, and tolerance, Jesus was murdered by a group of men who didn't think that Jesus was "good" according to their interpretations of the bible, Jesus was crucified and resurrected 3 days later. I believe that that happened, even without proof, because I do believe in miracles. However, I also don't believe that the earth is 10,000 years old (I believe in evolution because it is basically proven), and I don't believe in the talking snake and people living for 700 years and a man living inside of a whale for 3 days. The reason is simply because it doesn't make sense. I believe in miracles for men like Jesus who was a great leader and man, but I don't believe in those kinds of things happening on a regular basis like they do in the bible. Does that mean that, according to christianity, I am going to go to hell forever?

    Thirdly, I would like to better understand the "fear of God" that we are supposed to have. I am wondering why we must have fear of God? Why should I be afraid of a being which I cannot control and can wipe me out in an instant? I can say with complete honesty, that I have no fear of God or of death. The reason is because I have no control over those things. I don't like, however, how the Christian church likes to instill this fear of God in people and tell them that if they don't live right, then they will go to Hell. Why should I fear a God who loves me unconditionally? I respect God and what I believe he wants me to do, but I do not fear him, and I do not want to. Is there a problem in this lack of fear? The way I live my life is simple. I do my best to love everybody and I use my words and intellect to explain why love is the way. I don't need to make somebody fear anything to convince them that love is the right attitude to take towards life, I just explain that if they try it, they will experience more happiness and joy than ever before. I get people to be grateful for what they have. I don't tell them they have to thank my God in order to go to heaven, I just get them to be grateful for all the opportunities and luxuries that they have and don't even think about. These, in my opinion, were some of Jesus' and the Bible's best teachings, and yet people overlook them in order to stop "sinners" and eliminate "sin" in the world.

    My final questions involve a little bit of thought, and this is mostly how the Bible relates to you personally, and how you read the bible. First, I know many liberal and conservatives who are christian, and I just want to get your view on me and my beliefs as the relate to politics (as someday I would like to become a politician). My first question is, would you vote for a complete atheist if he was a good man who worked hard, helped people, loved everybody, and was honorable, honest and intelligent? If not, why or why not? My second question, on a slightly different subject, is: if you were living in the time of Jesus, and he asked you to kill a child or a man, would you? If God asked you to kill somebody, would you? You may say that God would never ask you to do that, and yet he asked Abram to kill Issac in the Bible (I think I am thinking of the right story). While Abram didn't actually kill him, it was still asked. And if you believe in revelations, then you believe the Antichrist will rise through politics, pretending to be religious (this is what sounds like a self fulfilling prophecy to me). So what if God told you that a child was the Antichrist and you should kill him to stop revelations from happening, would you? Why or why not? Lastly, I would like to understand why you chose the Bible over all other religious texts. Why is the Bible right, and not the Koran or the Tao? This is the question that I get the strangest answers from. To be clear, I would like to know what SOLID proof (or a strong logical argument) you have that the Bible is the "right" religious texts, and all the other ones are the wrong ones. Also, if you are going to use proof that the Bible is the "right" religious text, then you can't use quotes from the bible (since quotes are written by men, and men have a tendency to lie, cheat, steal, make mistakes, and sin for their own benefits...this is what a lot of people do and it does nothing to convince me that the Bible is the "right" text). You also shouldn't use the fact that prophecies were fulfilled in the new testament since the new testament came after the old testament, and, again, was written by men, who are known to sin.

    Anyways, if you got this far, I want to thank you and I hope I didn't offend anybody with this thread, I am just confused and looking for some answers.
    Last edited by Diggindeeper; Apr 6th 2013 at 08:14 PM.

  2. #2
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    Re: Struggle with faith in the Bible

    A lot of what people think the Bible says is just wrong. Many things I'd been taught growing up (or understood incorrectly) I learned later were incorrect. I'm still learning and relearning things. But, Jesus came to open the eyes of the blind and the ears of the deaf, and not just physical eyes and ears. He wants you to know the truth. If you sincerely desire to know and understand, be willing to put some study time in and to look at things from different perspectives. Tell God, you're looking for truth. He'll show you.

  3. #3

    Re: Struggle with faith in the Bible

    hello, and sounds like many of the questions i used to ask myself

    i would say if you are seeking to know more about scripture and the Christ, read scripture and not other peoples opinions about it and form your own from the words written on those pages, read it study it and form your own opinion.

    i am a christian, and i will tell you what you will find is anyone can call themselves christian, it doesnt make it so, to some it just sounds good to say, makes it seem to others like they care about people, like a little badge of goodness

    you will found a million different "christian" denomination spinoffs saying all sorts of conflicting things and that makes christians look like unorganized fools, i thought that before being a christian and think that long after. so i would say dont take my word or anyone elses for what those scriptures speak of till you have read them and studied them for youself. they could be delusional liars after all so why take their word for it ?

    if you ponder God I say God bless when you seak him, scrpipture is much like a math forumla, if the greatest liar in the world tells you 2 +2 + 4 you know he is telling the truth because you can try the formula, try scripture

    all the answers you seek i would say are in scripture, covering all the facets as to why God kills and why he spares and how and why little children die and so on, and even why there is no such thing as proof, as in physical evidence that one can point to and say here this proves God exists.

    and to the offensive Christians that try to force their views on others, they arent christians, read Christs word written in the bible and He explains exactly how his disciples should act, and he says nothing about doing that, so as a christian i offer apologies and i would ask to not hold that against all of us

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    Re: Struggle with faith in the Bible

    Wow, thatís a lot. Hereís my advice in a nutshell. You donít have to put your faith in the entire Holy Bible. You have to put your faith in Christ Jesus. Because we sin, we are subject to death (Romans 6:23). But Jesus was without sin (2 Corinthians 5:21) and death could not hold him (Acts 2:24). Jesus was raised to immortality (Romans 6:9) and God appointed him Messiah, King of Israel and Lord of all (John 1:49; Acts 2:36; 10:36). Those who swear allegiance to him (Romans 10:8-13) will become citizens of his kingdom (Colossians 1:13), will be raised to immortality (1 Corinthians 15:52-54) and will live with him (Romans 6:5-8). King Jesus will return (Acts 1:10-11; 1 Thessalonians 4:16) and God has set a day He intends to judge the world through Jesus (Acts 17:31; Romans 2:16). God does love all and thatís why He has made a way for us to enjoy His love. He is God and He has revealed that enjoying His love is accomplished when we embrace His Son and refrain from practicing sin. Those who willfully reject God and His Son in this way are freely choosing to not share in His love. There is no place in the kingdom for those who do not want to be in the presence of the King in His kingdom. They will be destroyed. I suppose that sounds like an ultimatum to many. Maybe they think God should allow those who hate Him into His kingdom. Maybe they think God should make them love Him, so that they can enter the kingdom. But love is only genuine when itís freely given and because of that thereís also the possibility that love is withheld. God does not force love. But He truthfully tells us ahead of time that those who reject His offer of love and choose, instead, to hate Him and rebel against Him will not have a place in His kingdom.

  5. #5

    Re: Struggle with faith in the Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by jakem617
    Many denominations even say that God doesn't like gay people. Does that seem very Godly to you though?
    Not to get too much into semantics, but 'liking' and 'loving' are not the same thing. In any case, God absolutely does love gay people, and the people who say otherwise are hypocrites, given that what they are actually claiming is 'God hates [people who commit sin]', which would include the very people making the claim, since no one has never sinned.

    But in any case, there is a difference between God loving people, calling out to them to turn away from their self-destructive ways of living, and those people refusing to do so. So yes, to me, a God who will forgive people on a moment's notice if only they asked for it, is a very Godly God.

    I thought Jesus was preaching love, tolerance and acceptance,
    Jesus preached loved, forgiveness, and inclusivity. That's not the same thing as 'tolerance' or 'acceptance', in the sense you're meaning those words.

    Some people say that it is God who punishes the world for our indifference to sin. But that doesn't sound like a Just and Merciful God that the Bible talks about.
    That's... exactly the just and merciful God the Bible talks about. Just to get an understanding of where you're coming from, how much of the Bible have you read? Do you know what the chief sins God punishes Israel for, over and over? Idolatry is up there, but it's not always the top sin. The worst sins they stand accused off were injustice, and apathy (or outright oppression) toward the poor, the enslaved, the starving, the naked, the widowed, and the orphaned. Exploiting the weak to make the rich more powerful. 'Indifference' is a sin, the sin of not caring about your fellow humanity. Turning a blind eye to the downtrodden, or worse, walking on them. Sounds to me like a very just God to crack down on the oppressors and apathetic. And sounds to me like a very merciful God to forgive those who would just ask and turn away from their sins.

    At one point in the Bible, he wiped out the entire world except for one family. He killed thousands of men, women and children. He killed little innocent babies who had done nothing wrong. He didn't even give mankind a chance to recover from a life of sin, he simply cleared the entire slate clean.
    We'll not get into the various interpretations that the story of the flood may not even be literal, and just assume that it is. You are right; this is a very difficult story to read through. (Made all the more ironic that a story about global death is made into a cutesy Sunday School story for children.) But the story being difficult does not mean it is somehow untrue, or grounds for giving up one's faith. In the Gospel books, Jesus claims that all of the Scriptures are a testimony to him, they all speak about him through and through. Jesus wasn't unfamiliar with the flood story. But somehow, he said, the flood story pointed to him dying on a cross for the sins of humanity. How? We're not entirely sure. But he wasn't stupid; he wasn't unaware of the inherent difficulty in the story. Part of believing in God is trusting in him, even if we don't have all the answers.

    All of those people also, according to the bible, are going to suffer in Hell for eternity.
    The Bible never says this. And while the majority opinion says otherwise, there is a steadily growing minority of Christians who do say: hell is not eternal. People aren't going to sit in a cosmic firepit for endless time screaming in unimaginable agony. That's not what hell is.

    other problem with the bible is the blind faith that I am told to have in it.
    The people who tell you to have 'blind faith' are probably the people who themselves have it, and never dare to question anything ever. Again, look at the examples of people in the Bible. Abraham argued with God. Moses argued with God. Samuel argued with God. Job argued with God. Habakkuk argued with God. They had faith in God (faith means trust), but it wasn't mindless devotion. They actually asked God questions. They challenged him on things. When God said something they weren't sure about, they pushed God to see if he would explain himself. Sometimes God didn't explain himself, like a parent doesn't always have to explain himself to his kid. But sometimes God did explain himself. As much as I hate the saying, the Scriptures are more than just a religion... it is a relationship. Having faith in God is not about just following the rules, checking off the list, making sure you're not crossing this or that line... it's about trusting in God. Asking questions, sometimes getting answers immediately, and other times digging, pushing, fighting to get those answers, without worrying that he's going to suddenly condemn you.

    While I enjoy reading the messages in the Bible, and I find them moving in my own way, I also simply don't believe them all. In fact, I think a large majority of the bible is simply wrong. I am just wondering if I will go to Hell for not believing in the Bible? Here is what I do believe: Jesus came to earth, Jesus was the son of God, Jesus had wonderful teachings about love, acceptance, and tolerance, Jesus was murdered by a group of men who didn't think that Jesus was "good" according to their interpretations of the bible, Jesus was crucified and resurrected 3 days later. I believe that that happened, even without proof, because I do believe in miracles.
    That's all fine and well, but... what's the point in believing any of it, if none of it has any 'reason' or 'logic' behind it? If Jesus came to earth because he was the son of God, and God empowered him to do miracles and teach authoritatively and everything... what's the reason for why God would allow Jesus to be murdered? And then, what was the reason for Jesus being raised from the dead? I'm not saying you can't believe these things, but since you're a logic and reason guy... what's your logic and reason for believing it? Because it sounds good? Or because it has real purpose behind it?

    However, I also don't believe that the earth is 10,000 years old (I believe in evolution because it is basically proven), and I don't believe in the talking snake and people living for 700 years and a man living inside of a whale for 3 days. The reason is simply because it doesn't make sense.
    You think there's a contradiction, because (it seems, though I may be wrong) you equate popular-level interpretations of the Bible, with the Bible itself. Young Earth Creationist Fundamental Protestantism is just one of many views on the Bible.

    I don't believe the earth is 10,000 years old (and I do believe in evolution), I don't believe in a talking snake, and I don't believe a man was inside of a whale for three days. But I do believe the Bible, including Genesis 2-3, and including the book of Jonah. My reason for rejecting a 10,000 year-old earth while also accepting the Bible, is because the Bible doesn't claim the earth is 10,000 years old. I think the talking snake is mostly a symbol for temptation and sin and folly, not because I just assume it from the start without reason, but because I think the evidence is that Genesis 2-3 was never originally intended to be read as a story about a literal snake. I believe there was a real prophet Jonah, who probably preached to the city of Nineveh, but I believe the book of Jonah is divinely inspired fiction that utilizes the historical person to make a theological point (i.e. the book of Jonah is a parable). Again, I don't assume it without reason, but because I think the evidence is that the book of Jonah was never originally intended to be read as a literal story about a guy getting swallowed by a sea monster.

    It is possible to believe the Bible and believe certain parts are not literal. It is also possible to believe the Bible and to not believe the piles of tradition that have accumulated over the centuries. This doesn't always make other Christians happy; sometimes they become self-righteous and indignant and condemn you for being a 'heretic' (i.e. for not believing exactly the same as them on secondary issues). But that doesn't mean you can't still be a Christian as well... they're not God, they don't get to tell you you're not saved.

    I believe in miracles for men like Jesus who was a great leader and man, but I don't believe in those kinds of things happening on a regular basis like they do in the bible. Does that mean that, according to christianity, I am going to go to hell forever?
    Not believing in miracles happening on a regular basis will not get you stuck in hell forever... though I would seriously beg you to reconsider thinking of Jesus as merely 'a great leader'... great leader of what for what, if what he said and did had no real rhyme or reason to it? Why did the son of God 'come to earth' (as you say), just to get pinned to a tree, die, resurrect, and float off to heaven... if his only goal was to make people a little happier? That's not 'logical', it's very... unfulfilling.

    Thirdly, I would like to better understand the "fear of God" that we are supposed to have. I am wondering why we must have fear of God? Why should I be afraid of a being which I cannot control and can wipe me out in an instant?
    You don't understand what 'fear of God' is. It is not cowering in a corner, terrified of what he might do to you. 'Fear of God' is awe and respect.

    I don't like, however, how the Christian church likes to instill this fear of God in people and tell them that if they don't live right, then they will go to Hell.
    I agree. I hate that people in the Church manipulate others by trying to terrify them.

    My final questions involve a little bit of thought, and this is mostly how the Bible relates to you personally, and how you read the bible. First, I know many liberal and conservatives who are christian, and I just want to get your view on me and my beliefs as the relate to politics (as someday I would like to become a politician). My first question is, would you vote for a complete atheist if he was a good man who worked hard, helped people, loved everybody, and was honorable, honest and intelligent?
    The is a terribly vague and subjective description. Simply telling me someone 'works hard' and 'loves everybody' isn't going to win a vote. I want to know where he stands on certain issues I consider important.

    My second question, on a slightly different subject, is: if you were living in the time of Jesus, and he asked you to kill a child or a man, would you?
    Given that the question is completely contradictory to what we know about Jesus himself, I can't sincerely answer a self-contradictory hypothetical question like this. The Jesus I know wouldn't ask me to kill someone... so your question, in itself, is irrational / without reason.

    If God asked you to kill somebody, would you?
    You mean, the God revealed in Jesus? See my previous response.

    And if you believe in revelations, then you believe the Antichrist will rise through politics, pretending to be religious (this is what sounds like a self fulfilling prophecy to me).
    I don't believe the Revelation says any of this. Again, you're equating the popular-level interpretation of the Revelation, with the Revelation itself.

    Lastly, I would like to understand why you chose the Bible over all other religious texts.
    Because (a) I was raised to, and (b) as I grew older and studied different belief systems that I thought were worth considering, I defaulted back to Jesus. You might say this is simply a product of my cultural upbringing, and you might be right... but Jesus still makes the most sense to me.

  6. #6

    Re: Struggle with faith in the Bible

    Spiritual things can never be understood with human logic because they are spiritual and, therefore, are spiritually discerned (1 Corinthians 10-14). If you are trying to use your human logic to figure out the Bible you will forever be confused.

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    Re: Struggle with faith in the Bible

    [QUOTE=fewarechosen;2974614]hello, and sounds like many of the questions i used to ask myself

    Quote Originally Posted by fewarechosen View Post
    you will found a million different "christian" denomination spinoffs saying all sorts of conflicting things and that makes christians look like unorganized fools, i thought that before being a christian and think that long after. so i would say dont take my word or anyone elses for what those scriptures speak of till you have read them and studied them for youself. they could be delusional liars after all so why take their word for it ?
    May I suggest that you take this advise to get you started. You could spend a lifetime studying what the various denominations teach and be more confused than ever. Early on, I also had some of these doubts. But the more I studied, not read but really studied, all of a sudden those alleged contradictions disappeared.

    We cannot always understand the mind of God, because His ways are much higher than ours.
    "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness : That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. II Tim. 3:16,17.

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    Re: Struggle with faith in the Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by jakem617 View Post
    Ok, so this is probably going to be long, but I'm just gonna lay it all out. So I have gone back and forth on being a Christian. I have been a hardcore Christian and I have been a complete athiest not believing in God at all. I am now right in the middle. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that God exists based on logical evidence and facts. Just a heads up, I am a mathematics major who uses logic and reason habitually, so please try to make logical sense when answering my questions. Anyways, I am having a tough time having any kind of faith in the "Holy Bible". I don't mean to offend anybody by putting that in quotes, but the entire book seems to contradict itself in several locations.
    Just a quick question, have you seen "Privileged Planet" or "Unlocking the Mystery of Life" by Illustria Media? The publisher provided a copy on youtube for free. Your mathematical mind may find an interest in these things!

    First off, it says that God loves us all equally and unconditionally. Yet it also says that if we don't obey his will, we are going to be sent to Hell for eternity. This is probably what bothers me the most about Christianity as a religion. It seems like Christians believe that it is ok to force people to be like them because it is best for that individual (such as making gay marriage, prostitution or drugs illegal). Many denominations even say that God doesn't like gay people. Does that seem very Godly to you though? I thought Jesus was preaching love, tolerance and acceptance, and yet man has decided that he now has the capacity to judge what is morally right and wrong according to the word of God. Some people say that it is God who punishes the world for our indifference to sin. But that doesn't sound like a Just and Merciful God that the Bible talks about. At one point in the Bible, he wiped out the entire world except for one family. He killed thousands of men, women and children. He killed little innocent babies who had done nothing wrong. He didn't even give mankind a chance to recover from a life of sin, he simply cleared the entire slate clean. All of those people also, according to the bible, are going to suffer in Hell for eternity. Where is God's love for them then? I don't understand why a person who only has a handful of decades to live and be tested on his morality, and then it is decided where he will spend an eternity, and if he misses heaven by just a few points, then he'll go to hell forever.
    When asking questions like this we must first ask ourselves, "What makes us think we know what good or evil really is?" Also -

    Take for instance the possibility of this existence; this reality as we know it, to have been the only possible solution. How many possibilities did God have to calculate to account for every possible outcome in all of infinity, only to find that THIS was the best option?

    Things are NOT what they seem.

    "Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein." - Luke 18:17.

    God wants us to believe what He says, regardless of what "the world" says.

    My other problem with the bible is the blind faith that I am told to have in it. While I enjoy reading the messages in the Bible, and I find them moving in my own way, I also simply don't believe them all. In fact, I think a large majority of the bible is simply wrong. I am just wondering if I will go to Hell for not believing in the Bible? Here is what I do believe: Jesus came to earth, Jesus was the son of God, Jesus had wonderful teachings about love, acceptance, and tolerance, Jesus was murdered by a group of men who didn't think that Jesus was "good" according to their interpretations of the bible, Jesus was crucified and resurrected 3 days later. I believe that that happened, even without proof, because I do believe in miracles. However, I also don't believe that the earth is 10,000 years old (I believe in evolution because it is basically proven), and I don't believe in the talking snake and people living for 700 years and a man living inside of a whale for 3 days. The reason is simply because it doesn't make sense. I believe in miracles for men like Jesus who was a great leader and man, but I don't believe in those kinds of things happening on a regular basis like they do in the bible. Does that mean that, according to christianity, I am going to go to hell forever?
    Evolution is not a proven science in so far as an explanation to the origins of life itself! You should watch those videos by Illustria Media I mentioned earlier. They're about an hour long, each, but well worth it if you are at all interested in a third-party perspective. They try so hard to distinguish themselves as "ID" and not "Creation Science", but it pretty much is one and the same. You can't have "Intelligent Design" without a designer, a planner, a creator of some sort.

    Thirdly, I would like to better understand the "fear of God" that we are supposed to have. I am wondering why we must have fear of God? Why should I be afraid of a being which I cannot control and can wipe me out in an instant? I can say with complete honesty, that I have no fear of God or of death. The reason is because I have no control over those things. I don't like, however, how the Christian church likes to instill this fear of God in people and tell them that if they don't live right, then they will go to Hell. Why should I fear a God who loves me unconditionally? I respect God and what I believe he wants me to do, but I do not fear him, and I do not want to. Is there a problem in this lack of fear? The way I live my life is simple. I do my best to love everybody and I use my words and intellect to explain why love is the way. I don't need to make somebody fear anything to convince them that love is the right attitude to take towards life, I just explain that if they try it, they will experience more happiness and joy than ever before. I get people to be grateful for what they have. I don't tell them they have to thank my God in order to go to heaven, I just get them to be grateful for all the opportunities and luxuries that they have and don't even think about. These, in my opinion, were some of Jesus' and the Bible's best teachings, and yet people overlook them in order to stop "sinners" and eliminate "sin" in the world.
    Why should you fear God? Because He is able to punish us for our sin, even though He would rather just forgive us and forget our sins. God punishes those He loves, in order that they turn their lives around to better serve Him.

    But don't listen to churches, listen to God. Read the bible with prayer, and reason it out under the presumption that what God says is "right" or "true". If anything contradicts that, then it can not be true. The bible rules out a lot of worldly doctrines, and you should take what any church says with a grain of salt. But never give up on God, because God will not give up on you!

    My final questions involve a little bit of thought, and this is mostly how the Bible relates to you personally, and how you read the bible. First, I know many liberal and conservatives who are christian, and I just want to get your view on me and my beliefs as the relate to politics (as someday I would like to become a politician). My first question is, would you vote for a complete atheist if he was a good man who worked hard, helped people, loved everybody, and was honorable, honest and intelligent?
    No.

    If not, why or why not?
    I do not vote. 1st Samuel, chapter 8, verse 18. Go look that one up!

    My second question, on a slightly different subject, is: if you were living in the time of Jesus, and he asked you to kill a child or a man, would you?
    It doesn't matter "what if" Jesus said this or that, it matters what He did say, and you're trying to ascribe a hypothetical situation to Jesus that doesn't fit what actually happened at all. Jesus forgave those that put Him to death, I don't know how you could pose a question like that knowing this is true.

    If God asked you to kill somebody, would you?
    No, because God doesn't ask us to kill each other. Let he who is without sin to cast the first stone...

    You may say that God would never ask you to do that, and yet he asked Abram to kill Issac in the Bible (I think I am thinking of the right story). While Abram didn't actually kill him, it was still asked.
    And the location it happened was symbolic of a man chosen by God to give birth to an entire nation, to sacrifice his one and only son? That's the only reason God ever asked Abraham to do that. God did stop it from happening, and then proceeded to provide a ram without blemish in place of his only son, as per the law. Hmmm! Interesting parallels there, wouldn't you say? That is, if any of that makes sense to you.

    Also, this was before a truly innocent man was put to death (Jesus), and God did demand things from the nation of Israel while in service to Him. To ensure the survival of this fledgling group of people "chosen" by God, living in times where sacrificing humans to molech was dangerous to your existence, God told them to destroy entire cities. They had to do it, or they'd end up as sacrifices to "gods". Not a fitting end to a people chosen by God Himself, is it? If they were not obedient to God, He would destroy them. And He did, 4 times. Once into captivity to Babylon, to "Assyria", under the Greeks, and finally under the Romans. Now, a nation known as Israel stands in the historic location of its ancestry. Coincidence?

    And if you believe in revelations, then you believe the Antichrist will rise through politics, pretending to be religious (this is what sounds like a self fulfilling prophecy to me). So what if God told you that a child was the Antichrist and you should kill him to stop revelations from happening, would you?
    Then I would question the source of this information. What manner of spirit would tell you to kill another human? Perhaps when Jesus cast out demons, that meant he really did cast out demons. Right?

    "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;" - 1 Timothy 4:1.

    The bible clearly speaks about spiritual things, and so if there is spiritual truth, then there is only one spiritual truth. Not many spiritual truths or paths to God, but one and one only. Just like there are not many "laws of gravity", there is only one real "law of gravity". Everything in the universe is under the dictation of laws which govern the operation of the universe, and I ask you, from where did these laws come from that do not change?

    You couldn't stop revelations from happening even if you wanted to, else you strive against God. A clever ploy by Satan to get people to believe they could ever influence God's prophecy?

    Why or why not?
    Because it is a lie!

    Lastly, I would like to understand why you chose the Bible over all other religious texts. Why is the Bible right, and not the Koran or the Tao? This is the question that I get the strangest answers from. To be clear, I would like to know what SOLID proof (or a strong logical argument) you have that the Bible is the "right" religious texts, and all the other ones are the wrong ones. Also, if you are going to use proof that the Bible is the "right" religious text, then you can't use quotes from the bible (since quotes are written by men, and men have a tendency to lie, cheat, steal, make mistakes, and sin for their own benefits...this is what a lot of people do and it does nothing to convince me that the Bible is the "right" text). You also shouldn't use the fact that prophecies were fulfilled in the new testament since the new testament came after the old testament, and, again, was written by men, who are known to sin.
    If the bible was written by mere men, then I would like to know why Moses wrote down in Genesis 1:1, the following:
    "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

    Time, space and matter. Very first thing created.

    Anyways, if you got this far, I want to thank you and I hope I didn't offend anybody with this thread, I am just confused and looking for some answers.
    Never feel like you have to apologize for offending anyone, when asking genuine questions!
    Last edited by Ceegen; Apr 6th 2013 at 01:53 PM.
    John 10 (KJV)
    27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

  9. #9
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    Re: Struggle with faith in the Bible

    First off, it says that God loves us all equally and unconditionally. Yet it also says that if we don't obey his will, we are going to be sent to Hell for eternity. This is probably what bothers me the most about Christianity as a religion. It seems like Christians believe that it is ok to force people to be like them because it is best for that individual (such as making gay marriage, prostitution or drugs illegal). Many denominations even say that God doesn't like gay people. Does that seem very Godly to you though? I thought Jesus was preaching love, tolerance and acceptance, and yet man has decided that he now has the capacity to judge what is morally right and wrong according to the word of God.
    I'll address more later, but this was your first point, and seems to be the most critical. When I have time I hope to post more.

    Let's disregard any apparent contradictions in the Bible for this moment, and assume that there are passages that are.... confounding when it comes to the mercy of God.

    To accept anything in the Bible, one must accept that it reveals God's moral laws, and that that these are in opostition to the desires of our flesh, in which indwells sin which is rooted in rebellion against this moral law. The theme of the day is equal rights for homosexuals, and the churches are all over the map on this. The Bible is not. Homosexuality is completely incompatible with the Christian faith because it is rooted entirely in the lust of the flesh and is sin. There is no redemption in it. It does not have to do with love, as the gay community would like you to believe, because there is no moral law against men loving men or women loving women. A man's love for his friend may be even stronger than that for his own wife, no one disputes this. Homosexuality is about placing one's identity in lust.

    Your question in this subject was about God's unconditional love. How can he say he has love for everyone, and yet send them to hell? His love was already shown in his unconditional sacrifice, he freely went to the cross and died as a payment for all sin for all time. This act of love was displayed to the whole world for all to see, and to reject the validity of this act is to reject the core of Christianity and the Bible. Christ is the center of the truth of the Holy Bible. It would serve now to break down what it means for God to give Grace. Grace, in my opinion is really what you are asking about, for while God showed his pure and unconditional love already, he only give's grace to the humble. He only give's grace to those that believe in his name. To believe in his name, in Jesus Christ, is to appreciate, in faith, that his death done specifically and generally for all your sin. If you go on sinning, disregarding your identity as a believer in Christ, and rather placing your identity in something like lust, what then is your true faith placed in? Your true faith and identity are whatever you hold the most dear. If that happens to be your sexual orientation and you hold most dear your homosexuality over that of which Christ has shown in the Biblical and natural laws of morality, then you have placed your identity as that of the world (i.e. pagan) and your heart is opposed to Christ.

    All it takes to reverse this is repentance, not perfection, but repentance. Even if you are not perfect, homosexual thoughts and acts (for example) are not enought to doom you to hell. It is about those who practice homosexuality who cannot inherit the kingdom of God. This is important, because in our society, practicing homosexuality is all about identity, about "coming out", and about pride in one's sexuality. These things are opposed to Christ.

    It is certain that churches at times fail to show Christ's love to the world, and that is unfortunate, but this still does not excuse the sin of the world, because all who sin are condemned already, and can only be saved by faith in Jesus Christ. To know of Christ's name, and refuse to have faith in it, is the hallmark of eternal death, because the Bible states that all who hate God and Jesus, love death.

  10. #10
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    Re: Struggle with faith in the Bible

    17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

  11. #11
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    Re: Struggle with faith in the Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by LookingUp View Post
    Wow, that’s a lot. Here’s my advice in a nutshell. You don’t have to put your faith in the entire Holy Bible. You have to put your faith in Christ Jesus. Because we sin, we are subject to death (Romans 6:23). But Jesus was without sin (2 Corinthians 5:21) and death could not hold him (Acts 2:24). Jesus was raised to immortality (Romans 6:9) and God appointed him Messiah, King of Israel and Lord of all (John 1:49; Acts 2:36; 10:36). Those who swear allegiance to him (Romans 10:8-13) will become citizens of his kingdom (Colossians 1:13), will be raised to immortality (1 Corinthians 15:52-54) and will live with him (Romans 6:5-8). King Jesus will return (Acts 1:10-11; 1 Thessalonians 4:16) and God has set a day He intends to judge the world through Jesus (Acts 17:31; Romans 2:16). God does love all and that’s why He has made a way for us to enjoy His love. He is God and He has revealed that enjoying His love is accomplished when we embrace His Son and refrain from practicing sin. Those who willfully reject God and His Son in this way are freely choosing to not share in His love. There is no place in the kingdom for those who do not want to be in the presence of the King in His kingdom. They will be destroyed. I suppose that sounds like an ultimatum to many. Maybe they think God should allow those who hate Him into His kingdom. Maybe they think God should make them love Him, so that they can enter the kingdom. But love is only genuine when it’s freely given and because of that there’s also the possibility that love is withheld. God does not force love. But He truthfully tells us ahead of time that those who reject His offer of love and choose, instead, to hate Him and rebel against Him will not have a place in His kingdom.
    Faith is what makes the difference between our minds and our wills. We can act with what we can reason in our minds...or we can trust God and will to have faith in God. In this way we renew our minds...

  12. #12
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    Re: Struggle with faith in the Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by Aijalon View Post
    I'll address more later, but this was your first point, and seems to be the most critical. When I have time I hope to post more.

    Let's disregard any apparent contradictions in the Bible for this moment, and assume that there are passages that are.... confounding when it comes to the mercy of God.

    To accept anything in the Bible, one must accept that it reveals God's moral laws, and that that these are in opostition to the desires of our flesh, in which indwells sin which is rooted in rebellion against this moral law. The theme of the day is equal rights for homosexuals, and the churches are all over the map on this. The Bible is not. Homosexuality is completely incompatible with the Christian faith because it is rooted entirely in the lust of the flesh and is sin. There is no redemption in it. It does not have to do with love, as the gay community would like you to believe, because there is no moral law against men loving men or women loving women. A man's love for his friend may be even stronger than that for his own wife, no one disputes this. Homosexuality is about placing one's identity in lust.

    Your question in this subject was about God's unconditional love. How can he say he has love for everyone, and yet send them to hell? His love was already shown in his unconditional sacrifice, he freely went to the cross and died as a payment for all sin for all time. This act of love was displayed to the whole world for all to see, and to reject the validity of this act is to reject the core of Christianity and the Bible. Christ is the center of the truth of the Holy Bible. It would serve now to break down what it means for God to give Grace. Grace, in my opinion is really what you are asking about, for while God showed his pure and unconditional love already, he only give's grace to the humble. He only give's grace to those that believe in his name. To believe in his name, in Jesus Christ, is to appreciate, in faith, that his death done specifically and generally for all your sin. If you go on sinning, disregarding your identity as a believer in Christ, and rather placing your identity in something like lust, what then is your true faith placed in? Your true faith and identity are whatever you hold the most dear. If that happens to be your sexual orientation and you hold most dear your homosexuality over that of which Christ has shown in the Biblical and natural laws of morality, then you have placed your identity as that of the world (i.e. pagan) and your heart is opposed to Christ.

    All it takes to reverse this is repentance, not perfection, but repentance. Even if you are not perfect, homosexual thoughts and acts (for example) are not enought to doom you to hell. It is about those who practice homosexuality who cannot inherit the kingdom of God. This is important, because in our society, practicing homosexuality is all about identity, about "coming out", and about pride in one's sexuality. These things are opposed to Christ.

    It is certain that churches at times fail to show Christ's love to the world, and that is unfortunate, but this still does not excuse the sin of the world, because all who sin are condemned already, and can only be saved by faith in Jesus Christ. To know of Christ's name, and refuse to have faith in it, is the hallmark of eternal death, because the Bible states that all who hate God and Jesus, love death.
    People who choose the be apart from God are not "sent" anywhere, they simply receive their wish.
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

  13. #13

    Re: Struggle with faith in the Bible

    ll Thimothy 2:15

    15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth

    God does not speak to us as HE once did ! So we need the word of God! And we find it in the KJB........
    There was a time Past and now and ages to come.
    You need to know who is talking and to whom.
    Then the bible opens up to you ................

  14. #14
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    Re: Struggle with faith in the Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by grams View Post
    ll Thimothy 2:15

    15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth

    God does not speak to us as HE once did ! So we need the word of God! And we find it in the KJB........
    There was a time Past and now and ages to come.
    You need to know who is talking and to whom.
    Then the bible opens up to you ................
    Here is an interesting response.

    The Holy Spirit reveals the truth of God to those who are His children. If you are not God's child, you do not have the Holy Spirit revealing the truth regardless of what translation you use.

    There are so many denominations out there, all who have established doctrines that may or may not be valid. These doctrines seemed right in the eyes of the men who determined them - way back when. Some of those doctrines were established based on the interpretation of the strongest personality of the group.

    Don't let confusion between denominations confuse you. Get a bible that you can read and understand for yourself.

    Find a book that shows the amazing true facts given in the bible that science did not discover till hundreds of years AFTER the Bible stated the facts. Between that and other Apologetic teachings that gave the veracity of scripture, I became a believer.

    It is a supernatural book, given by supernatural breath, and if you take popular interpretations out of the mix, it will make more sense to you.
    Doublethink means the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them.
    George Orwell

    www.r2ucv.com




  15. #15
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    Re: Struggle with faith in the Bible

    Mod Note:

    dunedain,

    I've deleted your posts. Universalism isn't an acceptable thing to be teaching here in Bible Chat. Take it to Areopaugus.
    Oh, come, all ye faithful,
    Joyful and triumphant.

    O come, let us adore Him Christ the Lord!

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