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Thread: Willful sin after receiving the truth = eternal condemnation

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    Willful sin after receiving the truth = eternal condemnation

    Hebrews 10: 26-31: For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses.29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.”31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

    Strong words, huh? Willful and deliberate sin. Well, for starters that would include watching porn and getting drunk after being saved and exposed to the truth (the list could easily be extended). If I read this passage correctly those sinful acts, if continued, are not only evidence of a false conversion (1 John 3: 1-10) but eternal condemnation. Now that is an incentive to "go and sin no more"!!! The pastor spoke on this passage tonight and it hit me right between the eyes. It's fearful to fall into the hands of the living God. Doesn't sound like God is someone to mess around with, does it? Oh but God will forgive my sins...really? Not if you've accepted the truth and keep on sinning. Oh, but all I have to do is confess with my mouth and believe in my heart. Nope. You have to change too - "
    Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.[a]The old has passed away; behold, the new has come."




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    Re: Willful sin after receiving the truth = eternal condemnation

    Proof perfect that one can 'lose' their salvation, Nick! Not 'lose' like we can drop a coin and lose it. Or stop paying on our home and 'lose' it. But, we can turn away and not be obedient.

    He will never, ever let us go, but...we have the ability to choose to walk with Him or turn back to the darkness we so love! remember? This is the condemnation! That folks love their darkness more than the LIGHT.

    There's that pesky free will showing up again, Nick.

    Everywhere we turn and everything you are bringing up goes right back to that free will thing! God is trying to get through to you!
    My favorite scripture: Malachi 3:16

    "Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name!" (Every time we speak of the Lord, or even THINK of him--its written down in a book of remembrance!)

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    Re: Willful sin after receiving the truth = eternal condemnation

    Quote Originally Posted by Diggindeeper View Post
    Proof perfect that one can 'lose' their salvation, Nick! Not 'lose' like we can drop a coin and lose it. Or stop paying on our home and 'lose' it. But, we can turn away and not be obedient.

    He will never, ever let us go, but...we have the ability to choose to walk with Him or turn back to the darkness we so love! remember? This is the condemnation! That folks love their darkness more than the LIGHT.

    There's that pesky free will showing up again, Nick.

    Everywhere we turn and everything you are bringing up goes right back to that free will thing! God is trying to get through to you!
    It's interesting. I thought about that before my post, especially in light of my other posts, and my conclusion is the following: There is a difference between receiving the knowledge of truth and being saved. My contention is that those claiming to be Christians yet keep on sinning were never Christians in the first place (self-deception can be convincing). I'm doing an exhaustive study on "what it is to be a Christian" right now. Lots of good stuff coming...People that claim "I'm struggling with this affliction or that" - well, what does that really mean? Being tempted and continuing in sin are two very different things. How can one be "struggling" with perpetual sin (fill in the blank) yet claim to be a Christian???

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    Re: Willful sin after receiving the truth = eternal condemnation

    Nick... that ship you mentioned that you could possible jump from. This thread shows us how close you are to "seeing" the falseness of the reformed position.

    Are you gonna take that reformed position, believe that God predestined a person to ACCEPT Jesus and flip that predestination 180 degrees and then MAKE that person walk away from the relationship with Jesus?

    Or, are you gonna see how false the reformed position is and understand that a person chooses and it is that God KNOWS who will chose, WHAT they will chose, for how LONG they will choose and only those who endure and run the race till the end, will be saved?!

    Now... if you are gonna stay on that ship and say to me that God does predestine a person to accept Christ, only to sometime flip that and make them not accept His Son anymore... be honest about it.
    Slug1--out

    ~Limitations in a Christian’s life are due to limited prayer and limiting obedience~

    ~Forgiveness has nothing to do with forgetting that moment... it's all about freedom FROM that moment.~


    ~Your needs activate God's compassion and faith activates God's power~

    ~Three minutes is a lifetime, if you only have two, too live~


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    Re: Willful sin after receiving the truth = eternal condemnation

    slug - In light of my response to Diggin what do you think?

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    Re: Willful sin after receiving the truth = eternal condemnation

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    slug - In light of my response to Diggin what do you think?
    Have you ever been to a Biblical or Faith Based Recovery program?

    All those saved Christians still bound by addiction and thus sinning and since they are sinning and the Holy Spirit is convicting them, they attend such recovery programs, for years if that's what it takes until the day God takes the addiction away?

    Tell me, does your church have any such Bible based recovery program?

    I know that many churches that are of the reformed position do not because Christians who still have addictions are PREdestined to have the addiction and there is nothing that can be done about it if they are following what they believe.

    Such is a symptom of that false doctrine.
    Slug1--out

    ~Limitations in a Christian’s life are due to limited prayer and limiting obedience~

    ~Forgiveness has nothing to do with forgetting that moment... it's all about freedom FROM that moment.~


    ~Your needs activate God's compassion and faith activates God's power~

    ~Three minutes is a lifetime, if you only have two, too live~


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    Re: Willful sin after receiving the truth = eternal condemnation

    I'm nit Slug. But Nick...what if you only think you have been saved?
    My favorite scripture: Malachi 3:16

    "Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name!" (Every time we speak of the Lord, or even THINK of him--its written down in a book of remembrance!)

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    Re: Willful sin after receiving the truth = eternal condemnation

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Have you ever been to a Biblical or Faith Based Recovery program?

    All those saved Christians still bound by addiction and thus sinning and since they are sinning and the Holy Spirit is convicting them, they attend such recovery programs, for years if that's what it takes until the day God takes the addiction away?

    Tell me, does your church have any such Bible based recovery program?

    I know that many churches that are of the reformed position do not because Christians who still have addictions are PREdestined to have the addiction and there is nothing that can be done about it if they are following what they believe.

    Such is a symptom of that false doctrine.
    As I matter of fact, I have. I'm a recovered drunk, drug addict, convict, thug, liar, cheat and a thief. If I resume any of that behavior and continue in it then I'm eternally screwed. If I slip and fall but get right back up that's one thing, but if were to go back down that road again there is no turning back at this point.

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    Re: Willful sin after receiving the truth = eternal condemnation

    Quote Originally Posted by Diggindeeper View Post
    I'm nit Slug. But Nick...what if you only think you have been saved?
    I'm secure in my salvation because behavior that was one acceptable I can no longer do without extreme pain. That includes fighting with my wife, confrontations of any sort, drinking, drugging, and a long list of other things not suitable to mention on a co-ed forum.

  10. #10

    Re: Willful sin after receiving the truth = eternal condemnation

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick
    It's interesting. I thought about that before my post, especially in light of my other posts, and my conclusion is the following: There is a difference between receiving the knowledge of truth and being saved.
    This is a distinction you have to read into the text. It is not what the author of Hebrews actually says. What he says is that people are rejecting what they once had.

    There are five 'warning' passages in Hebrews, each touching on the same points. The author makes it clear he is talking about people who were saved but are turning away and rejecting that salvation. He says they cannot be 'restored again to repentance', meaning they once were in a state of repentance. We can debate what exactly it consists of getting to the Point Of No Return, but the point remains that the author had in mind people who were considered full-fledged members of the new covenant community, people who were once in a state of repentance.

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    Re: Willful sin after receiving the truth = eternal condemnation

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    As I matter of fact, I have. I'm a recovered drunk, drug addict, convict, thug, liar, cheat and a thief. If I resume any of that behavior and continue in it then I'm eternally screwed. If I slip and fall but get right back up that's one thing, but if were to go back down that road again there is no turning back at this point.
    As a Christian, there is no such thing as a "recovering" drunk. The old man is gone Nick. Cept, for some, the renewing of the MIND is done through the discipleship provided by a Recovery Ministry.

    Only through secular programs are there "recovering" drunks because they will never be renewed and HEALED of the addiction. So they have to do what the program teaches them and they will always be "recovering" because when they stop doing what they are to do as instructed, many go back to the addiction or find another.

    Tell me, was your mind renewed the moment you accepted Christ, or was it later, even if a month later when the bottle was put down and you were healed or in the case of a renewed mind, possessed your freedom in Christ and resisted the temptation to drink?

    You are a strange reformist... I've NEVER known any reformist who was NOT also a OSAS believer.

    Also... based on admitting you spent time overcoming those addictions, based on all you said, you can't be saved because you were sinning after accepting Christ and continued to be in a recovery program. Or everything you said so far in this thread didn't apply to you while attending a recovery program?
    Slug1--out

    ~Limitations in a Christian’s life are due to limited prayer and limiting obedience~

    ~Forgiveness has nothing to do with forgetting that moment... it's all about freedom FROM that moment.~


    ~Your needs activate God's compassion and faith activates God's power~

    ~Three minutes is a lifetime, if you only have two, too live~


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    Re: Willful sin after receiving the truth = eternal condemnation

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Hebrews 10: 26-31: For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses.29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.”31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

    Strong words, huh? Willful and deliberate sin. Well, for starters that would include watching porn and getting drunk after being saved and exposed to the truth (the list could easily be extended). If I read this passage correctly those sinful acts, if continued, are not only evidence of a false conversion (1 John 3: 1-10) but eternal condemnation. Now that is an incentive to "go and sin no more"!!! The pastor spoke on this passage tonight and it hit me right between the eyes. It's fearful to fall into the hands of the living God. Doesn't sound like God is someone to mess around with, does it? Oh but God will forgive my sins...really? Not if you've accepted the truth and keep on sinning. Oh, but all I have to do is confess with my mouth and believe in my heart. Nope. You have to change too - "
    Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.[a]The old has passed away; behold, the new has come."
    I think you are misreading the passage. While I seriously advise no-one to fall into the hand of the living God by wilful sinning, the threat of Hebrews 10 is delivered in another light.

    The letter to the Hebrews is written in this context. Under the Law of Moses, there where two important differences to Christianity.

    1. A man was blessed for keeping the Law. Under Moses, a man who diligently kept the Laws enjoyed the Lord's protection, his fields had no crop failures, his cattle and wives did not miscarry and he had a long and healthy life. Deuteronomy Chapter 28:1-13 is a prime example of this. But once a man threw his lot in with our Lord Jesus, the opposite occurred. Because our Lord Jesus has deferred the taking of the kingdoms of this world from Satan till the end of this age, He and His followers live in enemy territory. Persecution and calamity are the portion of most Christians. The martyrs through the centuries will testify of this. So the book of Hebrews is written to the Jews who had accepted Christ and suddenly were confronted with persecution and loss of worldly possessions (Heb.10:34). They were in danger of saying; "hey... it was better under Moses. Let's go back to Moses and the Law. There we were blessed for our efforts."
    2. The Law provided for multiple sacrifices. On Monday the Jew stole a sheep from a neighbour. On Tuesday he was found out. He had to restore the sheep, plus a penalty to the offended neighbour PLUS he had to sacrifice a Lamb to appease the offended God of Israel. On wednesday he touched a dead man and besides being unclean for a week, he had to sacrifice a turtle dove in the cleansing process. But once the Jew embraced Jesus Christ, all this ended. There was a "once for all" sacrifice in our Lord Jesus Christ (Heb.9:12, 10:10). Any attempt to repeat this "once for all" resulted in an insult to both our Lord Jesus and to the Father. In Hebrews 6:6 it is; "if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame."


    So the warnings of Chapter 6 and Chapter 10 address this issue. The author of Hebrews is saying; "you Hebrews who have accepted your Messiah in Jesus Christ, don't you dare think you can sin today and re-crucify Christ again tomorrow like you did with bulls and goats! And don't dare even think of returning to Moses for earthly benefit!"

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    Re: Willful sin after receiving the truth = eternal condemnation

    Quote Originally Posted by markedward View Post
    This is a distinction you have to read into the text. It is not what the author of Hebrews actually says. What he says is that people are rejecting what they once had.

    There are five 'warning' passages in Hebrews, each touching on the same points. The author makes it clear he is talking about people who were saved but are turning away and rejecting that salvation. He says they cannot be 'restored again to repentance', meaning they once were in a state of repentance. We can debate what exactly it consists of getting to the Point Of No Return, but the point remains that the author had in mind people who were considered full-fledged members of the new covenant community, people who were once in a state of repentance.
    I'd have to strongly disagree with you on that mark, and the ESV translators agree with my position, not yours. The fact that they "go on sinning deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth" indicates the people in view are not (and never were) genuine believers. You're an extremely intelligent guy, but you've got this one dead wrong.

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    Re: Willful sin after receiving the truth = eternal condemnation

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    As a Christian, there is no such thing as a "recovering" drunk. The old man is gone Nick. Cept, for some, the renewing of the MIND is done through the discipleship provided by a Recovery Ministry.

    Only through secular programs are there "recovering" drunks because they will never be renewed and HEALED of the addiction. So they have to do what the program teaches them and they will always be "recovering" because when they stop doing what they are to do as instructed, many go back to the addiction or find another.

    Tell me, was your mind renewed the moment you accepted Christ, or was it later, even if a month later when the bottle was put down and you were healed or in the case of a renewed mind, possessed your freedom in Christ and resisted the temptation to drink?

    You are a strange reformist... I've NEVER known any reformist who was NOT also a OSAS believer.

    Also... based on admitting you spent time overcoming those addictions, based on all you said, you can't be saved because you were sinning after accepting Christ and continued to be in a recovery program. Or everything you said so far in this thread didn't apply to you while attending a recovery program?
    I didn't overcome anything. It was taken away. All those years I willfully tried to change were to absolutely no avail. Will power was useless.

  15. #15

    Re: Willful sin after receiving the truth = eternal condemnation

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick
    I'd have to strongly disagree with you on that mark, and the ESV translators agree with my position, not yours.
    Is your interpretation of the ESV translation the final authority?

    The fact that they "go on sinning deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth" indicates the people in view are not (and never were) genuine believers.
    He also specifically says there 'no longer remains a sacrifice for sins', meaning there once was a sacrifice for their sins that they have since 'spurned'.

    Yes, the author says they went on sinning after receiving knowledge of the truth. But he does not say they 'never were genuine believers'. Interpreting his words this way is a leap, and does not jive with him having earlier specifically said they were once repentant, that they had been 'enlightened' (the same word he uses in 10.32 for people who are saved, so it has nothing to do with distinguishing mere knowledge and actually be saved), 'tasted the heavenly gift. How can he say they shared in the holy spirit if they were never saved to begin with, and hence did not receive the holy spirit? How exactly can he say they have 'fallen away' if they were never really saved in order to become apostate? Unless, do you think we need to read between the lines that their initial repentance was disingenuous as well, in which case, how can he call it 'repentance'?

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