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Thread: Hell and outer darkness, are they the same?

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    Hell and outer darkness, are they the same?

    Matt 8:12 - while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    Matt 22:13 - Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    Matt 25:30 - And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    Matt 25:41 - Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

    Matt 25:46 - And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

    These are the texts I could find about outer darkness.

    Is outer darkness a special place other than hell with its flames?
    Last edited by ProDeo; Jun 25th 2013 at 12:33 AM. Reason: typo

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    Re: Hell and outer darkness, are they the same?

    Which Hell are you talking about. I assume Gehenna? Isn't it interesting that the "sons of the kingdom will be thrown in there?"

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    Re: Hell and outer darkness, are they the same?

    Quote Originally Posted by ProDeo View Post
    Matt 8:12 - while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    Matt 22:13 - Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    Matt 25:30 - And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    Matt 25:41 - Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

    Matt 25:46 - And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

    These are the texts I could find about outer darkness.

    Is outer darkness a special place other than hell with its flames?


    Speaking for myself, I concluded a long time ago these are one and the same. It's interesting that it calls it outer darkness, as opposed to inner darkness or something. Maybe it's called outer because one is on the outside of the kingdom, as opposed to being in the inside of the kingdom?

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    Re: Hell and outer darkness, are they the same?

    Quote Originally Posted by ProDeo View Post
    Matt 8:12 - while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    Matt 22:13 - Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    Matt 25:30 - And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    Matt 25:41 - Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

    Matt 25:46 - And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

    These are the texts I could find about outer darkness.

    Is outer darkness a special place other than hell with its flames?
    Yes. They are not the same place. We must define them first and then then place them second.

    Let's deal with "hell" first.
    There are three different Greek words lumped together into one English word by our eminent translators (because of various traditions held at the time of the Reformation, the which, if we discuss them, will derail the thread). They gave the name "hell" variously to;
    1. Gehenna, a name for the Valley on the south side of Jerusalem where the city's trash was burned, and where the Canaanites, and later Israel, sacrificed their children alive to the fire-god Molech (Lev.18:21, 20:2-5; 1st Ki.11:7; 2nd Ki.23:10; Jer.32:35). Within the context our Lord Jesus used this as a figure of the Lake of Fire, or a place of eternal burning.
    2. Hades, the place under the earth where the souls of dead men wait for resurrection. In the Old Testament Hebrew it is "Sheol".
    3. Tartaroo, the dark abyss under the earth where angels who mix with human females are kept for the White Throne judgement, after which they are cast into the Lake of Fire (2nd Pet.2:4).


    "Outer Darkness" is always concerned with what happens to God's people, that is, Jew and Christian, when our Lord Jesus returns.

    When our Lord Jesus returns to earth He sets up His 1'000 year reign and judges three peoples. They are;
    1. The Christians, in the air, after their rapture at the "Bema", or traveling throne. Here it is decided whether a Christian was in love with our Lord Jesus, whether he/she was righteous during their Christian walk, whether they took up their crosses daily, whether they denied their souls and whether they were diligent in their service (Rom.14:10; 2nd Cor.5:10).
    2. The Jews, after the angels have gathered them from their dispersion back to the Good Land. They will be judged on the Law and whether those who were living at the time were right to deny their Messiah (Dan.12:1-2)
    3. The living members of the nations who survived the Great Tribulation. They will be judged on how they responded to the Jews and Christians who were persecuted during the Great Tribulation (Matt.25:31-46).


    Of these three, two are God's people, the Christian and the Jew. This is what happens to each one.
    The Christians are judged first (1st pet.4:17). Most of the parables about the "servants" of the Lord concern this judgement. If a Christian led a holy life, judging his/her sins, seeking God and Christ, crucifying the flesh and its lusts daily, denying the soul, giving up worldly things, serving Christ diligently, and had a loving, intimate relationship with his/her new Bridegroom, Jesus, he/she will be made a co-king with Jesus during the Millennial reign of Christ, and will be allowed into the wedding feast with Jesus. This is called "entering the joy of the Lord", for the "kingdom of God is..... righteousness, peace and joy" (Rom.14:17).

    If a Christian was found to be unrighteous in their daily dealings, seeking their own things, satisfying the lusts of the flesh and the desires of the soul, slothful in service, and/or indifferent, lukewarm and distant from our Lord Jesus, he/she will be cast out of the kingdom and out of the wedding feast of Jesus. As they are cast out of the presence of Jesus, the source of the "Light" of this world, they are considered to be in "Outer Darkness."

    The Jews are judged next. If a Jew was found to have lived righteously according to the Law, which is called "blameless" in scripture, he/she will be restored to their portion of land in the expanded Israel (the borders shown to Abraham as the promise was given), live in peace, prosperity, without sickness, with great harvests, many children, fame and feasting (that is, all the predictions of the prophets concerning Israel when restored). A blameless Jew will have unlimited access to Jesus Who will live in Jerusalem in the Temple predicted by Ezekiel.

    If a Jew was found to have been evil and unlawful during his/her life, and especially if they belonged to those Jews who rejected Messiah, they will have no inheritance in the Land they live in, will be in disgrace, and will have no access to our Lord Jesus although he/she might live only a few miles from Jerusalem and Ezekiel's Temple. This is called "outer darkness".

    The Lord has allowed for this state of outer darkness in type by adding a room to Ezekiel's Temple that was not in any other Temple - the "Gizrah" (Ez.41:12-15, 42:1, 10,13). It is a room where the vessels and implements of the Temple, which should have been used IN the Temple, are found to be defiled or damaged, and are not permitted INTO the Temple. This is a place of "away from the light of the Temple Inhabitant - Christ" for vessels that should have been "IN the presence of the light of the Temple."

    The slothful Christian and the unlawful Jew are in "Outer Darkness" for 1'000 years. It seems that they are restored to Christ's presence at the time of the New Earth for all things become new and there are no more tears for God's people (Rev.21:1-4).

    The members of the nations who are judged in Matthew 25:31-46 face a different future. If they are found to have supported Jews and Christians during the Great Tribulation, they are allowed to enjoy all the benefits of the Millennial rule of Jesus, except that they cannot be owners of land and have any position of rule. If they are found to have refused help to a persecuted Jew or Christian during the Great Tribulation, they are sent to the Lake of Fire. There too is outer darkness, but it is forever.

    See if that satisfies all mentions of "outer darkness" within the context of who is being addressed.

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    Re: Hell and outer darkness, are they the same?

    Quote Originally Posted by ProDeo View Post
    Matt 8:12 - while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    Matt 22:13 - Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    Matt 25:30 - And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    Matt 25:41 - Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

    Matt 25:46 - And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

    These are the texts I could find about outer darkness.

    Is outer darkness a special place other than hell with its flames?


    Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    Matthew 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

    Matthew 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.


    Matthew 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    Matthew 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


    Matthew 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    Luke 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

    In particular, let's look at Matthew 13:42 first, in context.

    Matthew 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
    40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
    41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
    42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

    Verse 41 and 42 says... and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

    With that in mind, let's look at Matthew 7.

    Matthew 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

    Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


    We already know from verse 19 that these in verse 23 get cast into the fire, and that these would have to be of the same ones that do iniquity in Matthew 13:41.

    Next, what do all of these passages have in common? This place, this outer darkness, and this furnace of fire, they all have wailing and gnashing of teeth in common. So does that then mean there are two different places where wailing and gnashing of teeth takes place? Or does it mean these places are one and the same? I'm thinking the latter myself.

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    Re: Hell and outer darkness, are they the same?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    Matthew 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

    Matthew 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.


    Matthew 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    Matthew 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


    Matthew 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    Luke 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

    In particular, let's look at Matthew 13:42 first, in context.

    Matthew 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
    40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
    41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
    42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

    Verse 41 and 42 says... and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

    With that in mind, let's look at Matthew 7.

    Matthew 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

    Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


    We already know from verse 19 that these in verse 23 get cast into the fire, and that these would have to be of the same ones that do iniquity in Matthew 13:41.

    Next, what do all of these passages have in common? This place, this outer darkness, and this furnace of fire, they all have wailing and gnashing of teeth in common. So does that then mean there are two different places where wailing and gnashing of teeth takes place? Or does it mean these places are one and the same? I'm thinking the latter myself.
    I know you have addressed ProDeo, but may I comment?

    If we work backwards from the ultimate pleasure for man, we might gain some insight. The ultimate pleasure for a man is;

    1. To have God's life, that is, partaker of the divine life. It is THE THING for which God's promises are given, and the thing "commanded" in Eden (2nd Pet.1:3-4)
    2. To be found having pleased the Lord in service. The servants who did this enter the "Joy" of the Lord (Eccl.2:26; Matt.25:21-23; Lk.6:23 etc.)
    3. To be in the presence of the God (Ps.16:11, 36:7-8)


    Thus, the ultimate dread of man is to be cut off, or put OUT from the presence of God. This is the portion of those in the Lake of Fire. The sentence is "DEPART..." (Matt.25:41). And in Revelation 21:25-27 it is to be DISALLOWED to enter the City of Christ and God. Likewise in Revelation 22:14-15. There it is "blessed ... those who may enter, for WITHOUT.... "

    In the case of both, the retribution is to be away from God and/or Christ, which is to be away from the light. Christ is the "light of the world" and New Jerusalem has the following;
    • "Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal" (Revelation 21:11)
    • "And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof" (Revelation 21:23)
    • "And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it" (Revelation 21:24)
    • "And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever" (Revelation 22:5)


    So, the deepest anguish the soul of a man can experience is to be shut OUT and shut in DARKNESS from the presence of the Lord. It is OUTER DARKNESS!

    It should be a sobering thing to study this subject. For, although a Christian cannot be sent to eternal darkness, he/she can suffer OUTER DARKNESS for the duration of the Millennium. The Millennial Kingdom is "joy", "light" and the "presence" of God for those who followed Christ and His commandments, and paid the price. The slothful, lukewarm and unrighteous Christian faces OUTER DARKNESS for 1'000 years while his/her fellow Christians live in bliss and fame. What a motivation to forsake all and follow our beloved Savior!

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    Re: Hell and outer darkness, are they the same?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I know you have addressed ProDeo, but may I comment?

    If we work backwards from the ultimate pleasure for man, we might gain some insight. The ultimate pleasure for a man is;

    1. To have God's life, that is, partaker of the divine life. It is THE THING for which God's promises are given, and the thing "commanded" in Eden (2nd Pet.1:3-4)
    2. To be found having pleased the Lord in service. The servants who did this enter the "Joy" of the Lord (Eccl.2:26; Matt.25:21-23; Lk.6:23 etc.)
    3. To be in the presence of the God (Ps.16:11, 36:7-8)


    Thus, the ultimate dread of man is to be cut off, or put OUT from the presence of God. This is the portion of those in the Lake of Fire. The sentence is "DEPART..." (Matt.25:41). And in Revelation 21:25-27 it is to be DISALLOWED to enter the City of Christ and God. Likewise in Revelation 22:14-15. There it is "blessed ... those who may enter, for WITHOUT.... "

    In the case of both, the retribution is to be away from God and/or Christ, which is to be away from the light. Christ is the "light of the world" and New Jerusalem has the following;
    • "Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal" (Revelation 21:11)
    • "And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof" (Revelation 21:23)
    • "And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it" (Revelation 21:24)
    • "And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever" (Revelation 22:5)


    So, the deepest anguish the soul of a man can experience is to be shut OUT and shut in DARKNESS from the presence of the Lord. It is OUTER DARKNESS!

    It should be a sobering thing to study this subject. For, although a Christian cannot be sent to eternal darkness, he/she can suffer OUTER DARKNESS for the duration of the Millennium. The Millennial Kingdom is "joy", "light" and the "presence" of God for those who followed Christ and His commandments, and paid the price. The slothful, lukewarm and unrighteous Christian faces OUTER DARKNESS for 1'000 years while his/her fellow Christians live in bliss and fame. What a motivation to forsake all and follow our beloved Savior!

    Walls, as I'm sure you already know, I too am premil. But not everybody is premil tho. And since your understanding is based on the fact that the 1000 years are future, why then would any non premil agree with your conclusion to begin with? I'm not saying your conclusions are right or are wrong, I'm just pointing out that your conclusions are based on the fact that a future 1000 years are fact.

    From my perspective, I indeed think you make some very interesting points here, some of which I haven't considered before. With that in mind, I'll try and make some extra time to ponder what all you had said, since I feel what you said is worth pondering. Can't guarantee I'll end up agreeing, but at least I will give what you say a chance, instead of just brushing it off, as in I'm correct and you're not, so I'm not really interested in your opinion since it differs from mine. Now if only more people were like I am about things, willing to give the other person the benefit of the doubt, instead of always assuming they are always correct about things, and all others who disagree, that they are automatically incorrect.

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    Re: Hell and outer darkness, are they the same?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Walls, as I'm sure you already know, I too am premil. But not everybody is premil tho. And since your understanding is based on the fact that the 1000 years are future, why then would any non premil agree with your conclusion to begin with? I'm not saying your conclusions are right or are wrong, I'm just pointing out that your conclusions are based on the fact that a future 1000 years are fact.

    From my perspective, I indeed think you make some very interesting points here, some of which I haven't considered before. With that in mind, I'll try and make some extra time to ponder what all you had said, since I feel what you said is worth pondering. Can't guarantee I'll end up agreeing, but at least I will give what you say a chance, instead of just brushing it off, as in I'm correct and you're not, so I'm not really interested in your opinion since it differs from mine. Now if only more people were like I am about things, willing to give the other person the benefit of the doubt, instead of always assuming they are always correct about things, and all others who disagree, that they are automatically incorrect.
    Thank you for your generous spirit. It's not always found among the brethren. I also commend you for at least considering the argument. If it's any consolation, I was once where you are. What might help is to watch the counter arguments. Are they in context? Are they true to scripture? Then you get both sides and can decide.

    I am under no illusions that many of the saints will agree with me. It is clear that if the foundation is not accepted, the building will collapse. If I am wrong, may the Lord wipe all my postings from the minds of the saints. If I am correct, may the Holy Spirit make it clear to those who will embrace the literal approach to scripture. Rebirth and forgiveness of sins is a free gift, gotten by faith. But God, in His wisdom, knowing what was in men, made the gaining of the 1'000 year kingdom a prize. Remember the parable of the Sower? Three out of four people had trouble, not with the gospel of grace, but the "Word of the Kingdom" (Matt.13:19)! I hope that even the skeptical Christians seek the Lord diligently, live righteously, deny themselves and carry their cross daily, shun the world and its mechanisms, and seek to be over the moon in love with our coming Bridegroom, Jesus Christ. Then, it doesn't matter doctrinally what the outer darkness is.

    But one thing is sure, the context of the three mentions of outer darkness are all to do with the Lord's people.
    Matthew 8:12. "But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
    Here it is clear that the Jews are meant. They are "children of the kingdom." That is, they were already in line for it, but lost it. And another crucial point concerning your comments is that the feast was with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. That could only happen AFTER their resurrection. That is, the kingdom comes after the resurrection of the faithful.

    Matthew 22:13. "Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
    Here, the man was invited and accepted the invitation. He was eligible for the wedding feast. He was the same as the others who were invited. But His garment was wrong. According to Revelation 19:8, those were his works, not his faith.

    Matthew 25:30. "And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
    Here, they were all "His OWN servants". All received the gifts of the King to be. All called Him "Lord". Even in the moment of judgement, the Master calls him "unprofitable SERVANT", not "false servant." They were the same in every aspect except faithfulness in the use of the gift. The only people who got gifts when the Master went away were the Church members. Ephesians 4:8 says; "Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men."

    Sobering to say the least.

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    Re: Hell and outer darkness, are they the same?

    Translations for "Hell":

    Sheol/Hades - the grave, death, physical place where the body goes.
    Tartarus - a vaguely described quarantine zone for the "angels that sinned."
    Gehenna - the place where all who sin are inevitably destroyed by fire after judgment.

    Sheol/Hades applies to man, everyone goes there.
    Tartarus applies to angels, the "angels who sinned" go there (possibly the lost too?)
    Gehenna applies to man and angel, everyone with sin goes there.

    So, based on the above:

    Matt 8:12 = Gehenna
    Matt 22:13 = Gehenna (metaphor)
    Matt 25:30 = Gehenna (metaphor)
    Matt 25:41 = Gehenna
    Matt 25:46 = Gehenna

    I don't think "outer darkness" is a specific part of Gehenna, I think it is Gehenna.
    Go and cry out to the gods whom you have chosen;
    Let them save you in the time of your distress.
    Judges 10:14

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    Re: Hell and outer darkness, are they the same?

    Quote Originally Posted by nimblewillsgrace View Post
    Which Hell are you talking about. I assume Gehenna?
    Yes.

    Isn't it interesting that the "sons of the kingdom will be thrown in there?"
    Yes it is. But I think it is directed and exclusively meant for God's elect (the Jews), that is, directed to the unrepented ones.

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    Re: Hell and outer darkness, are they the same?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    It should be a sobering thing to study this subject. For, although a Christian cannot be sent to eternal darkness, he/she can suffer OUTER DARKNESS for the duration of the Millennium. The Millennial Kingdom is "joy", "light" and the "presence" of God for those who followed Christ and His commandments, and paid the price. The slothful, lukewarm and unrighteous Christian faces OUTER DARKNESS for 1'000 years while his/her fellow Christians live in bliss and fame. What a motivation to forsake all and follow our beloved Savior!
    Thanks again brother for your extensive analysis. I still have a question regarding the above.

    During the Millennial Kingdom are all (who ever lived) slothful, lukewarm Christians in outer darkness, or just just the living at Christ second advent?

    And how does the temporarily (short) release of satan after the Millennial Reign fit into that? Sounds like a second test (chance) for the slothful, lukewarm Christians who suffered 1000 years, what do you think?

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    Re: Hell and outer darkness, are they the same?

    Quote Originally Posted by ProDeo View Post
    Thanks again brother for your extensive analysis. I still have a question regarding the above.

    During the Millennial Kingdom are all (who ever lived) slothful, lukewarm Christians in outer darkness, or just just the living at Christ second advent?

    And how does the temporarily (short) release of satan after the Millennial Reign fit into that? Sounds like a second test (chance) for the slothful, lukewarm Christians who suffered 1000 years, what do you think?
    We get the answer from the Parables of the Kingdom. They concern the Lord's servants and what happens at His coming. The parable of the Ten Virgins is the best one, for the Master delayed his coming and they fell asleep.

    Notice that the Virgins are the same in every aspect except wisdom. And this difference in wisdom led to a difference in oil reserves. Here are the similarities that the Holy Spirit gives;

    1. They are all virgins
    2. They all go forth
    3. They all want to meet the bridegroom
    4. They all have lamps
    5. All the lamps are burning
    6. They all slumber and sleep
    7. They all sleep until the cry
    8. They all rise together
    9. They all trim their lamps
    10. They were all capable of taking extra oil in vessels (not the lamps)

    So, it is clear that if they are the same in every respect, and some are Christians, then all are Christians. And they fell asleep and only rose at the call of the coming of the Bridegroom (Christ at His second Coming). Thus, we see that the LOSS that slothful (unwise in this case) Christians experience applies to all Christians from Christ's resurrection day onwards.

    Just a small nugget for a rainy day. How could the TEN Virgins be God's people when the number of God's People is always 12 (12 Tribes, 12 Apostles)? The answer is that the TEN are those Christians who have died over the last 2'000 years of Christianity. The other TWO are those who are alive at His coming. They are found in the previous Chapter. Matthew 24:40-41 introduces them;
    • 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    • 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left

    Luke adds a bit in 17:34-36
    • 34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
    • 35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    • 36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left

  13. #13
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    Re: Hell and outer darkness, are they the same?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    We get the answer from the Parables of the Kingdom. They concern the Lord's servants and what happens at His coming. The parable of the Ten Virgins is the best one, for the Master delayed his coming and they fell asleep.

    Notice that the Virgins are the same in every aspect except wisdom. And this difference in wisdom led to a difference in oil reserves. Here are the similarities that the Holy Spirit gives;

    1. They are all virgins
    2. They all go forth
    3. They all want to meet the bridegroom
    4. They all have lamps
    5. All the lamps are burning
    6. They all slumber and sleep
    7. They all sleep until the cry
    8. They all rise together
    9. They all trim their lamps
    10. They were all capable of taking extra oil in vessels (not the lamps)

    So, it is clear that if they are the same in every respect, and some are Christians, then all are Christians. And they fell asleep and only rose at the call of the coming of the Bridegroom (Christ at His second Coming). Thus, we see that the LOSS that slothful (unwise in this case) Christians experience applies to all Christians from Christ's resurrection day onwards.

    Just a small nugget for a rainy day. How could the TEN Virgins be God's people when the number of God's People is always 12 (12 Tribes, 12 Apostles)? The answer is that the TEN are those Christians who have died over the last 2'000 years of Christianity. The other TWO are those who are alive at His coming. They are found in the previous Chapter. Matthew 24:40-41 introduces them;
    • 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    • 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left

    Luke adds a bit in 17:34-36
    • 34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
    • 35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    • 36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left
    The falling asleep here relates to the inability to remain awake to the spiritual reality of a quickened life in the Spirit. While we are awake in ourselves we are asleep in the Lord.

  14. #14
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    Re: Hell and outer darkness, are they the same?

    Quote Originally Posted by episkopos View Post
    The falling asleep here relates to the inability to remain awake to the spiritual reality of a quickened life in the Spirit. While we are awake in ourselves we are asleep in the Lord.
    That is one take on the matter, but the problem with this then is that one can only "wake up" at Christ's coming. This is not the case. A man can "wake" to the spiritual reality anytime.

  15. #15
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    Re: Hell and outer darkness, are they the same?

    Most Christians that I know identify "outer darkness" as a description of hell. The Greek phrase employed here is used three times in Matthew 8:12; 22:13; 25:30. The question is how does Matthew use the phrase "outer darkness" in these three passages? In these three passages the phrase "gnashing of teeth" is linked to the "outer darkness" in all three passages. We should consider Matthew’s usage and meaning of the phrase "gnashing of teeth" which is also used in Matthew 13:42 and 50, where it is linked to being "cast into the furnace of fire" and in Matthew 24:51, where the individual is "cut up and assigned a place with the hypocrites." This clearly sounds like hell to me and not Heaven's suburb.

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