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Thread: Are children born without sin

  1. #91

    Re: Are children born without sin

    Quote Originally Posted by shepherdsword View Post
    It may have some historical validity. We have a historic record of all types of heresies. It doesn't mean they are found in the scriptures. There is no scriptural justification for infant baptism. Children are innocent until the age of accountability when they can decide for themselves which master to serve.
    Opinion always trumps fact.

  2. #92
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    Re: Are children born without sin

    Quote Originally Posted by pax View Post
    Which is why the early Christians right up until today have always baptized their children. Look it up for yourself. It is an historical fact.
    I am not sure it is an historical fact before Constantine. In fact what seems to be the historical fact at that time was that people were baptised as late as possible due to a misunderstanding on a passage from Heb 6:4, whereby people thought that if they sinned AFTER they were baptised then there was no longer any forgiveness for them.
    There is a biblical occasion where possibly infant baptism occurred, which is when the jailer and his household were baptised and Stephanus and his household, which may therefore have included children. I actually belong to a denomination which teaches infant baptism, but they find it hard to justify from scripture and rely on the traditions of men such as you just have. However what this demonstrates is that people throughout the ages have recognised the need for children to be saved as much as adults.
    There is no scripture which shows children will inherit the kingdom of God except through Jesus. This shows that children and others need a righteous and merciful judge. Fortunately they do have one in Jesus.

  3. #93

    Re: Are children born without sin

    Originally Posted by Vakeros
    I am not sure it is an historical fact before Constantine. In fact what seems to be the historical fact at that time was that people were baptised as late as possible due to a misunderstanding on a passage from Heb 6:4, whereby people thought that if they sinned AFTER they were baptised then there was no longer any forgiveness for them.
    There is a biblical occasion where possibly infant baptism occurred, which is when the jailer and his household were baptised and Stephanus and his household, which may therefore have included children. I actually belong to a denomination which teaches infant baptism, but they find it hard to justify from scripture and rely on the traditions of men such as you just have. However what this demonstrates is that people throughout the ages have recognised the need for children to be saved as much as adults.
    There is no scripture which shows children will inherit the kingdom of God except through Jesus. This shows that children and others need a righteous and merciful judge. Fortunately they do have one in Jesus.
    Here is some Christians writing about infant baptism well prior to Constantine.

    Irenaeus

    "He [Jesus] came to save all through himself; all, I say, who through him are reborn in God: infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age" (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).

    "‘And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5]" (Fragment34 [A.D. 190]).



    Hippolytus

    "Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them" (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D. 215]).



    Origen

    "Every soul that is born into flesh is soiled by the filth of wickedness and sin. . . . In the Church, baptism is given for the remission of sins, and, according to the usage of the Church, baptism is given even to infants. If there were nothing in infants which required the remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of baptism would seem superfluous" (Homilies on Leviticus 8:3 [A.D. 248]).

    "The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of the divine sacraments, knew there are in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit" (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]).



    Cyprian of Carthage

    "As to what pertains to the case of infants: You [Fidus] said that they ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, that the old law of circumcision must be taken into consideration, and that you did not think that one should be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day after his birth. In our council it seemed to us far otherwise. No one agreed to the course which you thought should be taken. Rather, we all judge that the mercy and grace of God ought to be denied to no man born" (Letters 64:2 [A.D. 253]).

    "If, in the case of the worst sinners and those who formerly sinned much against God, when afterwards they believe, the remission of their sins is granted and no one is held back from baptism and grace, how much more, then, should an infant not be held back, who, having but recently been born, has done no sin, except that, born of the flesh according to Adam, he has contracted the contagion of that old death from his first being born. For this very reason does he [an infant] approach more easily to receive the remission of sins: because the sins forgiven him are not his own but those of another" (ibid., 64:5).

  4. #94
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    Re: Are children born without sin

    Quote Originally Posted by pax View Post
    Opinion always trumps fact.
    The fact is that the scripture does not require or support infant baptism. You have posted plenty of the opinions of men but I notice that you have omitted the only valid source of authority....the scriptures themselves.

    Blessings

    and Popcorn

  5. #95

    Re: Are children born without sin

    Quote Originally Posted by shepherdsword View Post
    The fact is that the scripture does not require or support infant baptism. You have posted plenty of the opinions of men but I notice that you have omitted the only valid source of authority....the scriptures themselves.
    I have posted plenty of Scripture. You just want to interpret it different than me. Is that not how Christianity works? Everybody gets a Bible and comes up with their own understanding, and the Body of Christ is just one big happy dysfunctional family. I know Paul told us we should all be of one mind and all profess the same doctrine, but that was one of those "minor" doctrines.

  6. #96
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    Re: Are children born without sin

    Quote Originally Posted by pax View Post
    I have posted plenty of Scripture. You just want to interpret it different than me. Is that not how Christianity works? Everybody gets a Bible and comes up with their own understanding, and the Body of Christ is just one big happy dysfunctional family. I know Paul told us we should all be of one mind and all profess the same doctrine, but that was one of those "minor" doctrines.
    Thank you for your early church fathers posts, I haven't yet seen any posts from the Bible about infant baptism either. This is however gradually moving away from the question of are children born without sin. Everyone you have quoted seems to hold that children may have done no sin, yet still have that contagion of sin and thus in need of baptism.

  7. #97

    Re: Are children born without sin

    What is it that is passed on to every generation?

    It is understood that sin is something committed against God.

    A new born has committed not a thing against God

    Even before conception there is a mysterious flaw that is implied scripturally to every human.

    This flaw makes us unacceptable to God.

    As it is written, Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.

  8. #98

    Re: Are children born without sin

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob G View Post
    What is it that is passed on to every generation?
    broken fellowship and relationship


    Quote Originally Posted by Rob G View Post
    Even before conception there is a mysterious flaw that is implied scripturally to every human.

    This flaw makes us unacceptable to God.
    Well, again it's broken fellowship and relationship, not something in our constitution but something lost.
    Scripture says "condemnation" which means judgement. The judgement passed to Adam was passed to every man.

  9. #99

    Re: Are children born without sin

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    broken fellowship and relationship


    Well, again it's broken fellowship and relationship, not something in our constitution but something lost.
    Scripture says "condemnation" which means judgement. The judgement passed to Adam was passed to every man.
    That is pretty much the exact definition of Original Sin. It is not a sin we commit. Ergo, it is not a sin that we can confess and be absolved from. It is a sin that is remitted when we enter into the New Covenant. That is what Paul means when he says we are "new creations in Christ." We are born again from above when we enter into the New Covenant, or we enter into the New Covenant when we are born again from above. It doesn't matter which way you look at the two outcomes are in reality one action of the Holy Spirit. The water and the blood and the Spirit. The water signifies -- not symbolizes! -- the outpouring of the Holy Spirit and the washing in the Most Precious Blood. These three are one.

  10. #100

    Re: Are children born without sin

    Quote Originally Posted by pax View Post
    That is pretty much the exact definition of Original Sin.
    I sure wish we all agreed on this simple and basic point but most want to add an imaginary thing to the constitution of man.

  11. #101

    Re: Are children born without sin

    Quote Originally Posted by Vakeros View Post
    Thank you for your early church fathers posts, I haven't yet seen any posts from the Bible about infant baptism either. This is however gradually moving away from the question of are children born without sin. Everyone you have quoted seems to hold that children may have done no sin, yet still have that contagion of sin and thus in need of baptism.
    Romans 5:4. If you don't get it from that, then there is no getting it.

  12. #102
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    Re: Are children born without sin

    Quote Originally Posted by pax View Post
    Romans 5:4. If you don't get it from that, then there is no getting it.
    I think you meant Romans 6:4. This doesn't speak of infant baptism, but rather baptism in general. However if this passage is taken out of context and misunderstood then it would mean - be baptised and you will be united with Him in resurrection - regardless of your faith. In context however it has nothing to say about infant baptism, but rather about the relationship one has with Jesus. Buried with Him, raised with Him etc.

  13. #103

    Re: Are children born without sin

    Quote Originally Posted by Vakeros View Post
    I think you meant Romans 6:4. This doesn't speak of infant baptism, but rather baptism in general. However if this passage is taken out of context and misunderstood then it would mean - be baptised and you will be united with Him in resurrection - regardless of your faith. In context however it has nothing to say about infant baptism, but rather about the relationship one has with Jesus. Buried with Him, raised with Him etc.

    My apologies. It was Romans 5:14 But death reigned from Adam unto Moses, even over them also who have not sinned after the similitude of the transgression of Adam, who is a figure of him who was to come. Death reigns even over those who do not commit an actual sin.

  14. #104

    Re: Are children born without sin

    I believe God is merciful. I’m sure within the mysteries of the Word there is a open door for the innocent.

    If God through Christ will Judge men who do not know the Law according to their conscience,

    how much guilt can the conscience of a child have but a pure and clear conscience. Romans 2:14-16

    I believe God is merciful. I’m sure within the mysteries of the Word there is a open door for the innocent.

    If God through Christ will Judge men who do not know the Law according to their conscience,

    how much guilt can the conscience of a child have but a pure and clear conscience. Romans 2:14-16

  15. #105
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    Re: Are children born without sin

    Quote Originally Posted by pax View Post
    My apologies. It was Romans 5:14 But death reigned from Adam unto Moses, even over them also who have not sinned after the similitude of the transgression of Adam, who is a figure of him who was to come. Death reigns even over those who do not commit an actual sin.
    I agree with you that death reigns over all of Adam. My question is what speaks of Infant Baptism there? Nothing.

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