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Thread: Apostles

  1. #16
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    Re: Apostles

    Quote Originally Posted by luigi View Post
    I thought my response was fairly strait forward, so I'm not sure what you are vague about.
    A disciple is a student, that is what the word means. We are called to make disciples, students, pupils. Blessings.

  2. #17
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    Re: Apostles

    Sometimes in order to try and understand something a bit clearer, one can get a pretty good understanding of what something is supposed to mean by studying the enemy.

    2 Corinthians 11:12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
    13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
    14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
    15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.


    If there are false apostles, meaning ministers of satan, then it only stands to reason that there would also be legit apostles, ministers of God and Christ.

    According to verse 13, a false apostle is a deceitful worker, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. I wouldn't think in this context that it is simply only meaning the main apostles we're all familiar with, but is meaning apostleship in general. And besides, if there were only the main apostles we're all familiar with, where would there be room for false apostles?

    The question then is, is 2 Corinthians 11:13 only applicable to the time when the main apostles were still alive, or is this still applicable even now? And if the answer is the latter, what then would be the purpose of only having false apostles in the world, and not legit ones too?

    Also if we look a bit further in 2 Corinthians 11 we see this.

    2 Corinthians 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.


    Let's try and put 2 and 2 together here. In verse 13 we're told..For such are false apostles...transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

    And in verse 15 we're told...Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness

    What does that add up to then? A legit apostle would then be a minister of righteousness if a false apostle also is transformed as the ministers of righteousness. Except in the latter, they really aren't, the fact we're told they are deceitful workers instead.

    And then we have this as well.

    Revelation 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
    3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted

    Again we see false apostles. If there were only the main apostles we're all familiar with, what then was the point in even trying these which say they are apostles, and are not?

    The way I look at it then, depending on context, sometimes when apostles are mentioned it is then meaning the main ones we're all familiar with. Other times it using the term in a more general sense.

    Are there then apostles today? I would say yes, yet I would not foolishly conclude that everyone who claims this title is exactly deserving of it, the fact we're told satan's ministers transform themselves into the apostles of Christ. So then, no doubt, spiritual discernment would be needed to discern the legit from the false. But if one isn't willing to attempt any spiritual discernment at all, but just accept anyone's word for it if they claim this title, then IMO if they end up being deceived by them, it's not like Scriptures never gave a warning of any kind to try prevent this from happening.

  3. #18
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    Re: Apostles

    Quote Originally Posted by LandShark View Post
    A disciple is a student, that is what the word means. We are called to make disciples, students, pupils. Blessings.
    ^^^ This. And I have no idea where you were going with the apostle John.

  4. #19
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    Re: Apostles

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Sometimes in order to try and understand something a bit clearer, one can get a pretty good understanding of what something is supposed to mean by studying the enemy.

    2 Corinthians 11:12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
    13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
    14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
    15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.


    If there are false apostles, meaning ministers of satan, then it only stands to reason that there would also be legit apostles, ministers of God and Christ.

    According to verse 13, a false apostle is a deceitful worker, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. I wouldn't think in this context that it is simply only meaning the main apostles we're all familiar with, but is meaning apostleship in general. And besides, if there were only the main apostles we're all familiar with, where would there be room for false apostles?

    The question then is, is 2 Corinthians 11:13 only applicable to the time when the main apostles were still alive, or is this still applicable even now? And if the answer is the latter, what then would be the purpose of only having false apostles in the world, and not legit ones too?

    Also if we look a bit further in 2 Corinthians 11 we see this.

    2 Corinthians 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.


    Let's try and put 2 and 2 together here. In verse 13 we're told..For such are false apostles...transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

    And in verse 15 we're told...Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness

    What does that add up to then? A legit apostle would then be a minister of righteousness if a false apostle also is transformed as the ministers of righteousness. Except in the latter, they really aren't, the fact we're told they are deceitful workers instead.

    And then we have this as well.

    Revelation 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
    3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted

    Again we see false apostles. If there were only the main apostles we're all familiar with, what then was the point in even trying these which say they are apostles, and are not?

    The way I look at it then, depending on context, sometimes when apostles are mentioned it is then meaning the main ones we're all familiar with. Other times it using the term in a more general sense.

    Are there then apostles today? I would say yes, yet I would not foolishly conclude that everyone who claims this title is exactly deserving of it, the fact we're told satan's ministers transform themselves into the apostles of Christ. So then, no doubt, spiritual discernment would be needed to discern the legit from the false. But if one isn't willing to attempt any spiritual discernment at all, but just accept anyone's word for it if they claim this title, then IMO if they end up being deceived by them, it's not like Scriptures never gave a warning of any kind to try prevent this from happening.
    Also consider this... as with false signs/wonders/miracles, they get broadcasted frequently by the world. But the humble servants of God doing true glorifying of God signs/wonders/miracles out there in the world, not much is broadcast at all.

    So it is as your line of thought is going... there are false apostles out there, and they make sure they are broadcasted... but the REAL, of God and doing His good works that glorify Him, due to their humbleness, they care less about being broadcasted. They just do the work as they are led to do, where they are led to do work, how they are led to do the work and when done, they THANK God for trusting them and using them... and they move on to the next place to do good works of God. The lives God touch through such servants... that is what matters to them, not what the world knows about them or the work.
    Slug1--out

    ~Does Predestination mean: Once of the devil, Always of the devil?~

    ~Limitations in a Christianís life are due to limited prayer and limiting obedience~

    ~Forgiveness has nothing to do with forgetting that moment... it's all about freedom FROM that moment.~


    ~Your needs activate God's compassion and faith activates God's power~

    ~Three minutes is a lifetime, if you only have two, too live~


  5. #20
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    Re: Apostles

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    ^^^ This. And I have no idea where you were going with the apostle John.
    You have confused two different posters - luigi and landshark.
    I wanted to hear what luigi meant too.
    "knowledge makes arrogant but love edifies"

  6. #21

    Re: Apostles

    Quote Originally Posted by LandShark View Post
    A disciple is a student, that is what the word means. We are called to make disciples, students, pupils. Blessings.
    In various fields, a disciple may very well represent nothing more than a student, but according to the criteria of becoming a disciple of Christ, one must hate his current life, along with his family, along with giving up everything to become a disciple of Christ (Luke 14:26-27 & 33).

    With these criteria for being a disciple of Christ, I can say that I don't qualify. I'm also fairly confident in assuming that over 99% of all professing Christians do not qualify as disciples either.

  7. #22
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    Re: Apostles

    Quote Originally Posted by awestruckchild View Post
    You have confused two different posters - luigi and landshark.
    I wanted to hear what luigi meant too.
    No. I agreed with LS about the first item and added a second.

  8. #23
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    Re: Apostles

    Quote Originally Posted by luigi View Post
    In various fields, a disciple may very well represent nothing more than a student, but according to the criteria of becoming a disciple of Christ, one must hate his current life, along with his family, along with giving up everything to become a disciple of Christ (Luke 14:26-27 & 33).

    With these criteria for being a disciple of Christ, I can say that I don't qualify. I'm also fairly confident in assuming that over 99% of all professing Christians do not qualify as disciples either.
    The way I understand what it is to be a "disciple" is about following Christ. Take the 70 when Jesus sent them out... they had no clue HOW to do what they were told to do, but in faith they were obedient and came back loudly expressing all they did in Christ's name. Sure, we are students of the Word of God but it's in the APPLYING of that Word that transforms us through the power of the Holy Spirit and this enables us to follow Christ.
    Slug1--out

    ~Does Predestination mean: Once of the devil, Always of the devil?~

    ~Limitations in a Christianís life are due to limited prayer and limiting obedience~

    ~Forgiveness has nothing to do with forgetting that moment... it's all about freedom FROM that moment.~


    ~Your needs activate God's compassion and faith activates God's power~

    ~Three minutes is a lifetime, if you only have two, too live~


  9. #24
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    Re: Apostles

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    No. I agreed with LS about the first item and added a second.
    Ohhhhh....you kilt 2 birds with one stone.
    "knowledge makes arrogant but love edifies"

  10. #25

    Re: Apostles

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    ^^^ This. And I have no idea where you were going with the apostle John.
    I was under the impression that you were asking if there were any apostles out there today, to which I responded that I wasn't sure if there were any.
    However, should John who penned the book of Revelation be considered an apostle, then seeing how He (John) must prophesy again (Rev 10:11); and if Johns prophesying again before many nations and peoples has yet to occur, then we have Him (John an apostle) to look forward to in the future.
    I hope this clarified things.

  11. #26

    Re: Apostles

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    The way I understand what it is to be a "disciple" is about following Christ. Take the 70 when Jesus sent them out... they had no clue HOW to do what they were told to do, but in faith they were obedient and came back loudly expressing all they did in Christ's name. Sure, we are students of the Word of God but it's in the APPLYING of that Word that transforms us through the power of the Holy Spirit and this enables us to follow Christ.
    What you say may be true, but it does not negate any item of criteria for discipleship in Luke 14:26-27 & 33.

  12. #27
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    Re: Apostles

    Quote Originally Posted by luigi View Post
    What you say may be true, but it does not negate any item of criteria for discipleship in Luke 14:26-27 & 33.
    Hooah, to truly "follow" Jesus means that a person MUST put Him first, above even loved ones, above all possessions.

    The scripture doesn't mean "hate" the loved ones... the verses are about putting God first.

    In several words, you can do a sermon on those scriptures... "Be committed to Christ above all else" and this short sermon explains it all simply but effectively concerning those scriptures.

    By the way, "hate" is a Semitic term that means, "love or loving less".

    That second condition, is enabled by the other two conditions. By loving Christ more, this enables a disciple to "follow" or come after, Christ while bearing their cross.

    v33 is what it's all about... following Christ and to do this, ALL else must be second to Christ as a disciple renounces pretty much "the world". All that THEY ARE (their cross v27), not what they have (which must be renounced as per v33)... comes after Christ.
    Slug1--out

    ~Does Predestination mean: Once of the devil, Always of the devil?~

    ~Limitations in a Christianís life are due to limited prayer and limiting obedience~

    ~Forgiveness has nothing to do with forgetting that moment... it's all about freedom FROM that moment.~


    ~Your needs activate God's compassion and faith activates God's power~

    ~Three minutes is a lifetime, if you only have two, too live~


  13. #28

    Re: Apostles

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Hooah, to truly "follow" Jesus means that a person MUST put Him first, above even loved ones, above all possessions.

    The scripture doesn't mean "hate" the loved ones... the verses are about putting God first.

    In several words, you can do a sermon on those scriptures... "Be committed to Christ above all else" and this short sermon explains it all simply but effectively concerning those scriptures.

    By the way, "hate" is a Semitic term that means, "love or loving less".

    That second condition, is enabled by the other two conditions. By loving Christ more, this enables a disciple to "follow" or come after, Christ while bearing their cross.

    v27 is what it's all about... following Christ and to do this, ALL else must be second to Christ as a disciple renounces pretty much "the world".
    I don't know what version of Bible you use, but according to the King James Version, Luke 14:26 states: "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

    While "hate" as you state may also be a Semitic term that means, "love or loving less"; rather than accept this spin on what clearly appears to me a despising of ones life and family, I will then not delude myself with something that makes me believe that I meet the criteria in Luke 14:26.

  14. #29
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    Re: Apostles

    Quote Originally Posted by luigi View Post
    I don't know what version of Bible you use, but according to the King James Version, Luke 14:26 states: "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."

    While "hate" as you state may also be a Semitic term that means, "love or loving less"; rather than accept this spin on what clearly appears to me a despising of ones life and family, I will then not delude myself with something that makes me believe that I meet the criteria in Luke 14:26.
    I suggest that you do a study of the verses then. Has nothing to do with "hating"... all the terms of "hate" in the Bible are about loving less. Jesus is exhorting that He is to be held above even family, love Him MORE which means a disciple must love family less.

    Who in their right mind will accept any scriptures that teaches or means, TO HATE as in what the "English" term means??!! This alone makes ALL the love your enemy scriptures meaningless and confusing.

    PROPER understanding is a need in the Body of Christ so verses like this one are taught properly.
    Slug1--out

    ~Does Predestination mean: Once of the devil, Always of the devil?~

    ~Limitations in a Christianís life are due to limited prayer and limiting obedience~

    ~Forgiveness has nothing to do with forgetting that moment... it's all about freedom FROM that moment.~


    ~Your needs activate God's compassion and faith activates God's power~

    ~Three minutes is a lifetime, if you only have two, too live~


  15. #30

    Re: Apostles

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    I suggest that you do a study of the verses then. Has nothing to do with "hating"... all the terms of "hate" in the Bible are about loving less. Jesus is exhorting that He is to be held above even family, love Him MORE which means a disciple must love family less.

    Who in their right mind will accept any scriptures that teaches or means, TO HATE as in what the "English" term means??!! This alone makes ALL the love your enemy scriptures meaningless and confusing.

    PROPER understanding is a need in the Body of Christ so verses like this one are taught properly.
    If you love your family less, and if you love your life less, would you after going out after Christ and finding yourself at times destitute, hungry, and cold, then not look back at your former life and desire to return, thereby making you not worthy of Christ? The answer is yes, and therefore you would have to hate your family and life.

    "For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he hath sufficient to finish it?
    Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him.
    Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish." (Luke 14:28-30)

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