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Thread: Regeneration

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    Regeneration

    Note: I wrote this originally as a study, to be posted in Bible Study. After consulting with board management they preferred me to post it here. Quotes are abridged only to preserve space, if you don’t know the quoted verses, please read the complete version in your bible.

    THE REGENERATION

    Wat is regeneration? The following Greek words apply:

    Palingenesia (regeneration) Mathew 19:28; Titus 3:5

    Anagennaoo (born to above) 1 Peter 1:3, 23

    Gennnaoo… anoothen (born from above; born again) John 3:3, 7

    Apokueoo (Give birth) Jacob 1:15, 18

    We will use the following texts to help us determine what regeneration is.

    John 3:3 « Except (Greek unless) a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. »
    John 3:6, 7 « That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
    John 3:12 « If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? »
    1 John 2:29 « every one that doeth righteousness is born of him »

    As starting point for our study we take John 3. Our natural birth is of the flesh. So man is « flesh » in Adam, the old man. He is without community with God and therefore without life in himself; weak and dying. That flesh can’t do anything from its own to Gods norm, can’t do righteousness. He that does do righteousness is therefor born of God. (1 John 2:29). The not reborn one can however do something good in connection to his physical surrounding. The « old man » is slave of sin. He can not believe that Jesus is the Christ, can not be saved to the Kingdom of God and can not have aionic (everlasting) life. Those spiritual things are in reach only to « spiritual » people. That natural (psychikos = led by the soul) man doesn’t accept what comes from the Spirit of God, because he can not understand it. (1 Cor. 2:13, 14) They didn’t even believe the earthly things, how should the believe the higher things?

    So, what should happen? A new birth from the Spirit, from God, from above (John 3:7) and also to above (1 Peter 1:3, 23), from imperishable seed. The Spirit is life making and when we are connected to it, then our spirit and soul get enforced, our mind renewed and our hearts cleaned. Something new starts in us, that is regeneration (born again). It is a community with Christ and we come in contact with the spiritual world. Only Gods power can accomplish this.

    In John 3:5 we should read « born from spiritual water » That this points to the power of the Holy Spirit can one see from John 7:38, 39.

    REGENERATION IN THE HEBREW SCRIPTURES. We have to come back to John 3:10:

    « Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? »

    The Lord Jesus had spoken about the birth from Spirit and Nicodemus – as a teacher of Israel – should have known about it. Therefor it was something that was already revealed and we should be able to find it in the Hebrew Scriptures. Indeed we read on various places about a renewing of the heart and the pouring of holy spirit. (the gift, not the Giver).

    Deut. 30:6 « And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart »
    Psalm 51:5, 12 « Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, Create in me a clean heart »
    Isaiah 57:15 « to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones »
    Jer. 24:7 « And I will give them an heart to know me. Conversion. »
    Jer. 31:33 « I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts »
    Jer. 32:29 « And I will give them one heart… that they may fear me. »
    Eze. 11:19 « one heart… new spirit within »
    Eze. 18:31 « Cast away transgressions, make a new heart and a new spirit »

    One can clearly see the national regeneration of Israel described here and notice it can only come after conversion. It would be accompanied by all kind of external signs. Eze. 18:30, 32 specifically talks about this. It is conversion and turning around to Adonai Jehova, a title used a lot by Ezekiel. (214 times) Israel was in exile at the time and « Lo-Ammi » (not My people). There is also mentioning of the circumcision of the heart. One knows that circumcision points to taking off « the flesh », the « old man ». Their heart had to come out of the old environment (atmosphere) and the spirit should have the upper hand. Then there would be circumcision and renewing of the heart. In Acts 7:51 the Jews are still blamed to be uncircumcised of the heart (also of the ears) and to resist the Holy Spirit.

    We see this way, for how long the national regeneration, community with God was promised. In Luke 24:49 the Lord announced this. The fulfillment of this promise is close. In Jerusalem they would be gifted with the power from above. In Acts 1:4 we find this confirmed and vs. 5 adds they would be shortly after baptized in holy spirit (i.e. the power of the Holy Spirit). And when did this happen? At Pentecost, which is a celebration of the firstfruits. A part of Israel became fulfilled with holy spirit (the power, Acts 2:4) This was the beginning of the fulfillment of Joel 2 (Acts 2:17) and the rest of the prophesy should have followed: Establishing the Kingdom on earth (see also above mentioned verses). Joel also imposed the condition: conversion (Joel 2:12, 13). After the firstfruits the harvest should have followed (Rom. 11:16). This way the time of the general regeneration should have started, the kingdom (Mat. 19:28). But the masses of Israel did not convert, so all of this is still prophesy.

    The power of the Holy Spirit expressed itself in relation to the national regeneration in a way that was adapted to the circumstances. The future aion in which the kingdom will be established, will indeed be a time of wonders and miracles. (Heb. 2:4, 5; 6:5). However this doesn’t mean the personal regeneration is connected to those things. regeneration in itself is the beginning of internal renewing. This applies to all times.

    THE BEGINNING OF THE NATIONAL REGENERATION.

    Now we have to establish why there was no pouring of holy spirit before, why was there no national regeneration. In John 14:16 we read:

    « And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; »

    The word « another » means one of the same kind. This divine comforter would stay « in-to » the aion, that is the next aion that all the prophets kept Israel’s attention focused on. The Lord talked in connection to this about the greater works they would do (vs. 12). This comforter, the Spirit of Truth (or True Spirit), would give them life, open their minds, so they would recognize that the Son is in the Father and they in Him and He in them. He would also make them notice all the things the Son had said (vs. 26) and lead them in all of the truth (John 16:13). This was fulfilled for the firstfruits at Pentecost and will be fulfilled for the whole of Israel after their conversion when Christ will stand in the middle of His people as Jehova-Shammah. (Eze. 43:7; 48:35; Zeph. 3:15-17).

    What should happen before that comforter could come? John 14:12 says « … because I go unto my Father » and vs. 16 « He shall give you another Comforter » Because they were sad about the going of their Savior, He continued:

    Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

    Please note, the Greek uses the preposition « pros ». The Holy Spirit would come into their direction but not necessary reach all. Just those that turned around (to God). Before the national regeneration could begin, the Lord Jesus had to go through death and resurrection. That’s why Peter says:

    1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead
    1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

    We have to be really careful to distinct between the personal regeneration and the national regeneration of Israel. Only after the resurrection the latter could begin. Pentecost should have been a preparation to the kingdom, to the time that is called specifically « the regeneration » (Mat. 19:28) . Everything was prepared, only Israel had to convert, so that the times of refreshing could come (Acts 3:19-21). It was in this same dispensation also the time of the external gifts, but even though the regeneration was coupled with visible gifts, this doesn’t necessary mean it always has to be like that.

    The personal regeneration is in the first place an internal event. This is independent of dispensation. Long before the cross, in our time and also in the future many are regenerated without the presence of external gifts. The regeneration is essential for all people to get into community with God. The external manifestation depends on time, dispensation and circumstances.

    Of course the personal regeneration is more in reach of all people, when the mystery of Christ is revealed further and the further God works out his purpose of the aions (Eph. 3:11). More particular Pentecost forms a turning point and also the current times are those of Gods grace by excellence. Later we will see more detailed what needs to happen before the personal regeneration. Here we just mention that Jes. 57:15 already speaks of making alive of spirit and heart (so regeneration) of the humble and the contrite ones. Eze. 18:21, 31, 32 also speaks of conversion and of a new heart and spirit and of life. So before the national regeneration of Israel there must be conversion to God. See Deut. 30:10; Jes. 55; Hos. 3:5; Zech. 1:3

    CHILD OR SON OF GOD. When one is born from God (regenerated) one is of course a « child of God » (John 1:12, 13; 1 John 3:9,10). It shouldn’t stop at this « being a child », because a child is no different from a slave. (Gal. 4:1) One is still « under » the elements of the world as slaves (vs. 3). Out of that, one must be bought free by the Son of God, so that one can receive sonship (vs. 5)

    Rom. 7 concerns the situation of the just regenerated, the « child » of God; he is still captive to (under) the law of sin (vs. 23). Rom. 8 concerns sonship, being « in Christ » (vs. 1), freed from the law of sin (vs. 2). Then Gods righteous laws can be fulfilled in them (vs. 4). These walk through the Spirit, because they are guided by the Spirit (vs. 14), the spirit is poured abundantly on them (Tit. 3:5), yes the Spirit can live in them (vs. 9). So they also know the things that are given to them by God (1 Cor. 2:12). One is son of God by their believe in (Greek en) Christ Jesus (Gal. 3:26). The children, through their believe « in to » (Greek pros) come until the kingdom of Heaven and the aionic life on earth. The sons until the glory in the heavens. They are a « new creation » (2 Cor. 5:17 Greek text).

    It is necessary to point out, that in translations one often sees « child » where the original texts read « son ». Here are some texts we will use for our investigation:

    Luk 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children (Gr. sons) of God, being the children (Gr. sons) of the resurrection.
    Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
    Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
    Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children (Gr. sons) of the living God.
    Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children (Gr. sons) of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
    Gal 4:6, 7 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
    Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. See also Heb. 12:5, 7, 8.

    SONSHIP

    Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption (Gr. sonship), whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
    Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption (Gr. sonship), to wit, the redemption of our body.
    Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption (Gr. sonship), and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
    Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. (Gr. That we might receive sonship)
    Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto [the adoption of children] (Gr. sonship) by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

    One sees how sonship is connected to resurrection and glory, Luk. 20:36; Rom. 8:19, 23; 9:26; Heb. 2:10. Now one has the spirit of sonship (Rom. 8:15), when resurrected one has sonship itself, full redemption of the body (vs. 23).

    Sonship was rightfully first for Israel, Rom. 9:4. They would lead the nations to it as well. But because of their sin that position is now within reach of the nations separate of Israel.

    While the « children » are still « slave » (Rom. 8:15; Gal. 4:1 Greek text) still « under » the schoolmaster of the law (Gal. 3:24), the « sons » are redeemed (Gal. 4:5, no longer under the schoolmaster (Gal. 3:25). The sons are « heirs » or « possessor » (Gal. 4:7) Once the « children » will come to this also (Rom. 8:17).

    One can see that without regeneration there is just a dying man, slave of Satan. After regeneration one can be redeemed and be righteous, not doing sin, love, and overcome the world through faith. One can be « spiritual » in stead of « carnal ».

    REGENERATION IN OUR DISPENSATION. Some believe wrongfully that in our dispensation (Eph. 3:2) God doesn’t ask for conversion, but faith (believe) only. Others think we don’t need to be regenerated. Thoughts like that originate in mixing up what is said about an aion or dispensation, with something that concerns the individual. The regeneration is a characteristic of the coming aion because not only will Israel have a national regeneration, but also many from outside will regenerate. Nothing allows us to limit the personal regeneration to that aion. Already in Acts there was groupwise regeneration and already before the cross there was personal regeneration. Man, a natural sinner, has to be regenerated to get further on the road of salvation. This has to happen in all dispensations. One can only get to the new creation, sonship, through believe in Christ and this is only possible after one is regenerated.

    Aristarkos

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    Re: Regeneration

    Very detailed thread.

    What do you make of John 3:8 "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

    According to Jesus (above) everyone born of the spirit comes and goes like the wind. I have never seen a person move in such a manner. I realize that I may be on an island on this, but I don't see how a person can be born again while still born of water (flesh). Receiving the Holy Spirit is a certainty. I think being born again doesn't actually occur until death. I see regeneration as an instant process that takes place when a person receives Jesus, and therefore the Holy Spirit. Born again? Not til death.

  3. #3

    Re: Regeneration

    Re generation

    Was generated, subject to death and corruption - died - was generated from the dead;To die no more, incorruptible.

    1 Cor 4:15-18, 5:1-4


    Col. 1:18
    Rom. 6:9 & Acts 13:34

    2 Cor. 5:5 Matt, 19:28 first 19 words in KJV. Romans 8:11

  4. #4

    Re: Regeneration

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    Very detailed thread.

    What do you make of John 3:8 "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

    According to Jesus (above) everyone born of the spirit comes and goes like the wind. I have never seen a person move in such a manner. I realize that I may be on an island on this, but I don't see how a person can be born again while still born of water (flesh). Receiving the Holy Spirit is a certainty. I think being born again doesn't actually occur until death. I see regeneration as an instant process that takes place when a person receives Jesus, and therefore the Holy Spirit. Born again? Not til death.
    You will like my post, if you work it out.

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    Re: Regeneration

    Quote Originally Posted by percho View Post
    Re generation

    Was generated, subject to death and corruption - died - was generated from the dead;To die no more, incorruptible.

    1 Cor 4:15-18, 5:1-4


    Col. 1:18
    Rom. 6:9 & Acts 13:34

    2 Cor. 5:5 Matt, 19:28 first 19 words in KJV. Romans 8:11
    Good stuff! I had forgotten about Matt 19:28. It seems rather straight forward that the regeneration is when we are raised up on the last day. Rapture, resurrection, or whatever it is called. This fits with John 3:8. Born Again is after death, not before. Receiving the Holy Spirit is like receiving the seed of life that is planted when we die and are planted in the ground. Ready for the time Jesus yells. "Come forth!" Next time it won't be restricted to just Lazarus.

    Isaiah 66:8:
    Who has heard such a thing?
    Who has seen such things?
    Shall the earth be made to give birth in one day?
    Or shall a nation be born at once?

    For as soon as Zion was in labor,
    She gave birth to her children.

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    Re: Regeneration

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    Very detailed thread.

    What do you make of John 3:8 "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

    According to Jesus (above) everyone born of the spirit comes and goes like the wind. I have never seen a person move in such a manner. I realize that I may be on an island on this, but I don't see how a person can be born again while still born of water (flesh). Receiving the Holy Spirit is a certainty. I think being born again doesn't actually occur until death. I see regeneration as an instant process that takes place when a person receives Jesus, and therefore the Holy Spirit. Born again? Not til death.
    In John 3:8 the word translated for « wind » is « pneuma » in Greek and occurs 385 times only here it is translated wind, every where else in « Spirit ». « blow » is in Greek « breathed ». « So » is in Greek « houtō » and this means « like this ». « born » is in Greek « has begotten » So what should we read:

    Joh 3:8 The Spirit breathed where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: Like this every one has begotten of the Spirit.

    Aristarkos

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    Re: Regeneration

    Great teachings here.
    Mat 6:22 “The eye is the lamp of the body. Therefore if your eye is good, your whole body will be full of light.

  8. #8

    Re: Regeneration

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    Very detailed thread.

    What do you make of John 3:8 "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

    According to Jesus (above) everyone born of the spirit comes and goes like the wind. I have never seen a person move in such a manner. I realize that I may be on an island on this, but I don't see how a person can be born again while still born of water (flesh). Receiving the Holy Spirit is a certainty. I think being born again doesn't actually occur until death. I see regeneration as an instant process that takes place when a person receives Jesus, and therefore the Holy Spirit. Born again? Not 'til death.
    No, Jesus is saying "born-of-the-Spirit is just as invisible as the WIND, but no less REAL..."

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos
    In John 3:8 the word translated for « wind » is « pneuma » in Greek and occurs 385 times only here it is translated wind, every where else in « Spirit ». « blow » is in Greek « breathed ». « So » is in Greek « houtō » and this means « like this ». « born » is in Greek « has begotten » So what should we read:

    Joh 3:8 The Spirit breathed where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: Like this every one has begotten of the Spirit.

    Aristarkos


    Right -- spiritual birth is just as invisible as the wind, but you can know BOTH, by their EFFECTS...



    "Born-again", is begotten; is becoming adopted sons of God. Happens When we believe, Rom8:15. The Spirit is not received before belief, Acts11;17.

    We are born-again now, he who has Jesus has life. 1Jn5:11-13.

    RE the op -- regeneration is by the POURED Spirit -- "poured" (ekcheo-received, Acts10:45-47 same word!), happens AFTER belief (Acts 11:15 & 17).

    Titus3:5-6 states we are regenerated by the POURED Spirit -- "poured" is an aspect of the REGENERATING Spirit.

    1. Believe and receive Jesus
    2. Poured (received!) Spirit, through belief in Jesus
    3. Regeneration is by the POURED Spirit


    In no sense are we regenerated and THEN the Spirit is "ekcheo-poured"...

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    Re: Regeneration

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadgeteer View Post
    No, Jesus is saying "born-of-the-Spirit is just as invisible as the WIND, but no less REAL..."



    Right -- spiritual birth is just as invisible as the wind, but you can know BOTH, by their EFFECTS...



    "Born-again", is begotten; is becoming adopted sons of God. Happens When we believe, Rom8:15. The Spirit is not received before belief, Acts11;17.

    We are born-again now, he who has Jesus has life. 1Jn5:11-13.

    RE the op -- regeneration is by the POURED Spirit -- "poured" (ekcheo-received, Acts10:45-47 same word!), happens AFTER belief (Acts 11:15 & 17).

    Titus3:5-6 states we are regenerated by the POURED Spirit -- "poured" is an aspect of the REGENERATING Spirit.

    1. Believe and receive Jesus
    2. Poured (received!) Spirit, through belief in Jesus
    3. Regeneration is by the POURED Spirit


    In no sense are we regenerated and THEN the Spirit is "ekcheo-poured"...
    So Faith in Jesus starts the process, and then by God's grace we receive Jesus. And then through belief in Jesus we receive the Holy Spirit. So Salvation comes by God's grace through Faith when we receive Jesus. I'm paraphrasing Ephesians 2:8-9.

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    Re: Regeneration

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadgeteer View Post
    "Born-again", is begotten; is becoming adopted sons of God. Happens When we believe, Rom8:15. The Spirit is not received before belief, Acts11;17.

    We are born-again now, he who has Jesus has life. 1Jn5:11-13.
    Equating born again to begotten is a stretch. 1 John 5 is an even weaker case for being born again.

    However, 1 Peter 1:22-23 is undeniable.

    22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit[d] in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever

  11. #11

    Re: Regeneration

    Quote Originally Posted by James_Roberts View Post
    So Faith in Jesus starts the process, and then by God's grace we receive Jesus. And then through belief in Jesus we receive the Holy Spirit. So Salvation comes by God's grace through Faith when we receive Jesus. I'm paraphrasing Ephesians 2:8-9.
    On Eph2:8, noted Greek scholar and Bible commentator A.T.Robertson says, "Grace is God's part, faith is ours."

    I've harped on Rom1:16-17; conspicuously using "present-active-participle", verse 16 says the Gospel is power to those who ARE BELIEVING -- and then 17 says God's righteousness is revealed from BEGINNING faith to ENDING faith; as it is written the righteous shall live BY faith.

    Faith is a choice, a decision; that's the only way "You shall LOVE GOD" (Deut6:5, Matt22:37) works. And it's not a one-time decision, we must choose faith daily. See Jude20-21 (I think it's chapter one), "building yourselves in holy faith, KEEP YOURSELVES in the love of God"...

  12. #12

    Re: Regeneration

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    Equating born again to begotten is a stretch. 1 John 5 is an even weaker case for being born again.
    Let's look at John3:3 -- "Unless one is gennaō-anōthen" ---born/BEGOTTEN anew/from-above.

    "Begotten" is 100% what "born-from-above", means. Zero stretch...

    However, 1 Peter 1:22-23 is undeniable.

    22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit[d] in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever
    "Anagennaō" --- born-again/anew, begotten-again/anew.

    100%.

    ..."you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"
    The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
    and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him." Rom8:15-17

    By the Spirit we become BEGOTTEN CHILDREN of God. As Rom9:8 says, children of the promise are REGARDED as descendants.

    "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
    who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." Jn1:12-13

    Here again "gennaō" -- New American Standard plainly footnotes it "begotten".

    How do you think Jesus was "begotten"?

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    Re: Regeneration

    1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

    Agreed gadget...

    The new genesis of the creation of God through His Son.

    We who have died that we may live!
    Mat 6:22 “The eye is the lamp of the body. Therefore if your eye is good, your whole body will be full of light.

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    Re: Regeneration

    Quote Originally Posted by Gadgeteer View Post
    On Eph2:8, noted Greek scholar and Bible commentator A.T.Robertson says, "Grace is God's part, faith is ours."

    I've harped on Rom1:16-17; conspicuously using "present-active-participle", verse 16 says the Gospel is power to those who ARE BELIEVING -- and then 17 says God's righteousness is revealed from BEGINNING faith to ENDING faith; as it is written the righteous shall live BY faith.

    Faith is a choice, a decision; that's the only way "You shall LOVE GOD" (Deut6:5, Matt22:37) works. And it's not a one-time decision, we must choose faith daily. See Jude20-21 (I think it's chapter one), "building yourselves in holy faith, KEEP YOURSELVES in the love of God"...
    Which in effect means "once saved, always saved" is false teaching.

  15. #15

    Re: Regeneration

    Quote Originally Posted by James_Roberts View Post
    Which in effect means "once saved, always saved" is false teaching.
    THAT --- is right!

    All three OSAS's.

    1. Antinomianism, saved SPIRIT but actively sinning FLESH. Fornicating/adulterating/robbing/murdering/drunk/carousing SAVED. Huh, uh.

    2. Eternal Security, absolutely everyone CAN be saved, but once "in" either too changed TO fall or God KEEPS us saved (some even thinking that God ends someone's life so that he'll be saved!).

    3. Sovereign Predestined Salvation (aka bunches of monikers, "Reformed Theology", "Calvinism", and myriads of variants in-between). God decides who lives and who dies, those whom God chooses cannot be thwarted by His sovereign will.


    Clearly #1 is a "deal-breaker"; but -- those who hold #2 or #3, AND those who hold "OSNAS", can agree that we must abide in Jesus' presence and FLEE from sin, and then that removes much of the reason to argue and debate --- with that much agreement (and agreement that salvation is IN CHRIST and CHRIST IN US) we will all find ourselves with Jesus as His family when He returns.

    ...and that's the goal. "Come to the party, join the celebration of love! Bring AS MANY AS YOU CAN!"

    :-)

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