View Poll Results: What Do YOU Believe?

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  • God created all, as stated in Genesis; fully formed creations, reproducing after their kind.

    60 93.75%
  • God created all, using macro-evolution. Simple organisms to man over millions of years.

    3 4.69%
  • Multiple Gods/entities (who we don't know anything about) created everything we see.

    0 0%
  • We were seeded by aliens from another area of the universe or dimension.

    0 0%
  • We don't know what created us and the universe. Some unknown force is behind all reality.

    0 0%
  • I don't know what I believe, I am still on the fence.

    1 1.56%
  • It does not matter what you believe, I don't care.

    0 0%
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Thread: What Do YOU Believe?

  1. #31
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    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    I'm not sure I follow what you are saying about Genesis 2. Where does it say there was no vegetation when man was created?
    Genesis 2:5 When no bush of the field was yet in the land and no small plant of the field had yet sprung up—for the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the land, and there was no man to work the ground,
    6 and a mist was going up from the land and was watering the whole face of the ground—
    7 then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

    From my post. vegetation; noun 1.all the plants or plant life of a place, taken as a whole:
    Peace to you!

    “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth."
    (Matthew 5:5)


  2. #32
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    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by bluesky22 View Post
    Great points and questions scooby snacks. Found this, it answers your questions for the most part. Read it twice, lots there.

    https://answersingenesis.org/contrad...ct-each-other/

    and this his one to is good.

    https://answersingenesis.org/contrad...tion-accounts/

    The short answer is there is no contradiction or inconsistency, just different detail and angles of examination.


    seek and you will find!
    The explanation regarding passages in Genesis 1 and 2 does not supply reasoning regarding the scripture I posted.

    The funny thing is, I read the scriptures without ever reading anyone else's issues with them (because I never spent time concerned about the subject) and still found what I found to question.
    Peace to you!

    “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth."
    (Matthew 5:5)


  3. #33
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    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
    Genesis 2:5 When no bush of the field was yet in the land and no small plant of the field had yet sprung up—for the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the land, and there was no man to work the ground,
    6 and a mist was going up from the land and was watering the whole face of the ground—
    7 then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

    From my post. vegetation; noun 1.all the plants or plant life of a place, taken as a whole:
    There were no verse numbers in the original text, nor any punctuation, nor any lower case letters. All these were added by translators much later. Verse 5 picks up in the middle of a sentence idea the way I read it in the Hebrew. Here is the way it is in the NKJV.

    NKJV 2:4 4 This is the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens, 5 before any plant of the field was in the earth and before any herb of the field had grown. For the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no man to till the ground; 6 but a mist went up from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground. 7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

    The way I read it in the Hebrew. (Very similar to the ancient Greek translation)

    2:4 This is the generation of the heavens and the earth in the day when they were created and made. The Lord God made the earth and the heavens 5 before any plant of the field was in the earth and before any herb of the field had grown. The Lord God had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no man to till the ground; 6 but a mist went up from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground. 7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

    It really just boils down to a simple punctuation issue. Now, it is exactly correct with chapter 1. Heaven and earth created first, Then plants, which were watered by dew. (No man around yet) Followed by man.

  4. #34
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    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    I just wanted to let you know I answered #2 in the poll even though I do not know what macro-evolution is...LOL

    Trying to answer bluesky and Tony P here at the same time. When I read Genesis 1, I understand the concept of the details coming up in Genesis 2. The translation I quoted from does have punctuation and there are today chapters that separate the books of The Bible. I do not see a need to dissect this and I do not read or write Hebrew.

    Even though I believe God created each and everything, I am not sold on the point that those things happened in one 24 hour day respectfully. When I read Genesis 2, it becomes apparent to me that the life of plants and shrubs and vegetation were already created, but had yet to grow and be mature plants, shrubs, vegetation.
    Water being one part of the growth process. Light being one part of the growth process.

    When Genesis 1 creates all vegetation on the 3rd day, to me, all possibilities for all vegetation were created, and in Genesis 2, water is added for these already created things to grow and spring forth.

    I can see a process like our process is today...we plant, water and things grow. The dust of the earth had within it that which God created and what He wished to be within it. Every molecule, atom and cell created by God to be what He wished it to be.
    All was perfect, without defect in His creation, all things glorify Him.

    But those things that come from a seed (God also plants the Garden in Genesis 2) are already fully capable of becoming what they are through that seed: A fir tree or a cedar, a squash plant or a pumpkin.

    I can see in Genesis 2 that the amount of time those things take to grow is real human known time, as these things are today.

    Humans can wonder at creation and try as we may to understand every aspect of it. God made us to have intelligence and reason to desire to understand. As I see it, all creation shows the glory of the Lord and not something that came about by accident. I am not certain how reasonable people, intelligent people can in anyway discard this truth for mere chance because of the intricacy of life forms of the landscapes and planets and solar system all scream God as creator.

    He did not describe this creation process through Moses to the extent that we can discover today.
    The bible would be a mile thick, and so we have the ultimate Truth, that God created and that God is timeless, eternal always was will be and has been.
    Peace to you!

    “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth."
    (Matthew 5:5)


  5. #35
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    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
    I just wanted to let you know I answered #2 in the poll even though I do not know what macro-evolution is...LOL

    Trying to answer bluesky and Tony P here at the same time. When I read Genesis 1, I understand the concept of the details coming up in Genesis 2. The translation I quoted from does have punctuation and there are today chapters that separate the books of The Bible. I do not see a need to dissect this and I do not read or write Hebrew.

    Even though I believe God created each and everything, I am not sold on the point that those things happened in one 24 hour day respectfully. When I read Genesis 2, it becomes apparent to me that the life of plants and shrubs and vegetation were already created, but had yet to grow and be mature plants, shrubs, vegetation.
    Water being one part of the growth process. Light being one part of the growth process.

    When Genesis 1 creates all vegetation on the 3rd day, to me, all possibilities for all vegetation were created, and in Genesis 2, water is added for these already created things to grow and spring forth.

    I can see a process like our process is today...we plant, water and things grow.
    Ah! The age old question. Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

    Did God create seeds and then plant them to grow as they grow today? Or, did God create fully mature trees and plants from the start, and then they produced seeds?

    I lean toward the latter. Adam was created fully formed, not as an embryo on the ground. It then only makes sense to me that God created fully mature trees and plants as well. So, the chicken came first.

  6. #36
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    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    Ah! The age old question. Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

    Did God create seeds and then plant them to grow as they grow today? Or, did God create fully mature trees and plants from the start, and then they produced seeds?

    I lean toward the latter. Adam was created fully formed, not as an embryo on the ground. It then only makes sense to me that God created fully mature trees and plants as well. So, the chicken came first.
    I believe He could have formed that which would be made complete by rain and sun. It was not incomplete...in His plan.


    In Genesis 2 God waters the earth and the plants just grow that had yet to spring forth as there was no rain. God did not bring into existence full grown plants... (he also plants the Garden trees) he forms Adam from the dust of the earth. (Although I believe that is also symbolic of Adam as Natural man that returns to the dust he came from)
    Peace to you!

    “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth."
    (Matthew 5:5)


  7. #37
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    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
    I just wanted to let you know I answered #2 in the poll even though I do not know what macro-evolution is...LOL
    Macro-evolution is a YEC-invented term to differentiate between adaptation or modification within a species (micro-evolution) versus speciation (macro-evolution).
    It is only the cynic who claims “to speak the truth” at all times and in all places to all men in the same way, but who, in fact, displays nothing but a lifeless image of the truth… He dons the halo of the fanatical devotee of truth who can make no allowance for human weaknesses; but, in fact, he is destroying the living truth between men. He wounds shame, desecrates mystery, breaks confidence, betrays the community in which he lives, and laughs arrogantly at the devastation he has wrought and at the human weakness which “cannot bear the truth”. Dietrich Bonhoeffer, in Ethics.


  8. #38
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    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by teddyv View Post
    Macro-evolution is a YEC-invented term to differentiate between adaptation or modification within a species (micro-evolution) versus speciation (macro-evolution).
    Thanks teddyv,

    I still have no idea what it is, but hope from my posts folks can understand my view a little better. I don't have a "theory" but I believe one of God's attributes is logic, and He created us in His image with this same attribute.
    Peace to you!

    “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth."
    (Matthew 5:5)


  9. #39
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    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by teddyv View Post
    Macro-evolution is a YEC-invented term to differentiate between adaptation or modification within a species (micro-evolution) versus speciation (macro-evolution).
    Not really Ted, but we do use it. All snips from >>> http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/macroevolution.html <<<

    >>>Antievolutionists argue against macroevolution so loudly that some people think they invented the term in order to dismiss evolution. But this is not true; scientists not only use the terms, they have an elaborate set of models and ideas about it, which of course antievolutionists gloss over or treat as being somehow problems for evolutionary biology.<<<

    >>>The terms macroevolution and microevolution were first coined in 1927 by the Russian entomologist Iuri'i Filipchenko (or Philipchenko, depending on the transliteration), in his German-language work Variabilität und Variation, which was an early attempt to reconcile Mendelian genetics and evolution. Filipchenko was an evolutionist, but as he wrote during the period when Mendelism seemed to have made Darwinism redundant, the so-called "eclipse of Darwinism" (Bowler 1983), he was not a Darwinian, but an orthogeneticist (he believed evolution had a direction). Moreover, Russian biologists of the period had a history of rejecting Darwin's Malthusian mechanism of evolution by competition (Todes 1989).<<<

    As with anything, the definition holds the key. There seem to be many floating around.

    >>>In his book Evolution, Mark Ridley defines the terms thus (2004: 227):

    Macroevolution means evolution on the grand scale, and it is mainly studied in the fossil record. It is contrasted with microevolution, the study of evolution over short time periods, such as that of a human lifetime or less. Microevolution therefore refers to changes in gene frequency within a population .... Macroevolutionary events events are much more likely to take millions of years. Macroevolution refers to things like the trends in horse evolution ... or the origin of major groups, or mass extinctions, or the Cambrian explosion .... Speciation is the traditional dividing line between micro- and macroevolution.<<<

    I use the terms because they are simple and convey the issue (I feel). We see little "micro (small)-changes" in creatures all around us. Evolutionists assume that these little changes, can accumulate or cause other changes that can lead to "macro-(big) changes and hence species evolution.

    Stephen Jay Gould and Niles Eldredge saw that this mechanism did not answer the issues nor was there any proof in the fossil record, so they authored the punctuated equilibrium theory (the hypothesis that evolutionary development is marked by isolated episodes of rapid speciation between long periods of little or no change.)

    So, in short, we see small changes but we don't see the large jumps, (in real life or in the fossil record) but this is exactly what Genesis implies if creatures where created in "kinds" and reproduced from there.

    God providentially built into his creatures the incredible ability for change depending on external stressors; exactly what we see.

    Hope this helps.




  10. #40
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    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
    Genesis 2:5 When no bush of the field was yet in the land and no small plant of the field had yet sprung up—for the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the land, and there was no man to work the ground,
    6 and a mist was going up from the land and was watering the whole face of the ground—
    7 then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

    From my post. vegetation; noun 1.all the plants or plant life of a place, taken as a whole:
    I would suggest that this is a reference to domesticated plants because it is speaking to plants in the "field" and man tilling the ground rather than all plant life. To conclude this is all plant life is to contradict Gen 1 which cannot be. But if this is referring to farming plants rather than the wild then they are consistent.

  11. #41
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    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by bluesky22 View Post

    Stephen Jay Gould and Niles Eldredge saw that this mechanism did not answer the issues nor was there any proof in the fossil record, so they authored the punctuated equilibrium theory (the hypothesis that evolutionary development is marked by isolated episodes of rapid speciation between long periods of little or no change.)
    Which is a nice way to say they created a story to define a new theory to fit the facts because the old theory does not. And they have the gall to say creation is a fable.

  12. #42
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    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by CurtTN View Post
    I would suggest that this is a reference to domesticated plants because it is speaking to plants in the "field" and man tilling the ground rather than all plant life. To conclude this is all plant life is to contradict Gen 1 which cannot be. But if this is referring to farming plants rather than the wild then they are consistent.
    Interesting and excellent point Curtin.




  13. #43
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    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by CurtTN View Post
    I would suggest that this is a reference to domesticated plants because it is speaking to plants in the "field" and man tilling the ground rather than all plant life. To conclude this is all plant life is to contradict Gen 1 which cannot be. But if this is referring to farming plants rather than the wild then they are consistent.

    11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation:seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so.12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.


    Non-flowering plants are those that do not produce flowers or seeds. They mainly reproduce using spores or fungi. The exception are gymnosperms that produce seeds, but not flowers. The most commonly seen are ferns, mosses, fungi and ornamental plants; but, there are many more examples.

    Vegetation is an overall concept. There is no contradiction if the element of plants will (let them) grow from what God created from the beginning is included...plants need sun light and rain to grow. God created them that way.
    Peace to you!

    “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth."
    (Matthew 5:5)


  14. #44
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    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by CurtTN View Post
    Which is a nice way to say they created a story to define a new theory to fit the facts because the old theory does not. And they have the gall to say creation is a fable.
    Precisely. They are the ones following fables. Fables only found in the minds of men.

    The facts however totally support the bibles version of creation. We have no worries. It's the truth. It's the true truth. And I think that's awesome.




  15. #45
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    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by bluesky22 View Post
    Precisely. They are the ones following fables. Fables only found in the minds of men.

    The facts however totally support the bibles version of creation. We have no worries. It's the truth. It's the true truth. And I think that's awesome.
    Respectfully, as I have tried to explain many times, the facts are not supporting your interpretation. Do not conflate truth with facts. Please stop telling millions of brothers and sisters in Christ that they are believing in fables.

    Also, thank you for the clarification of the micro-/macro-evolution definition. I have never heard the term used outside of YEC arguments in all the years I've been involved with it.
    It is only the cynic who claims “to speak the truth” at all times and in all places to all men in the same way, but who, in fact, displays nothing but a lifeless image of the truth… He dons the halo of the fanatical devotee of truth who can make no allowance for human weaknesses; but, in fact, he is destroying the living truth between men. He wounds shame, desecrates mystery, breaks confidence, betrays the community in which he lives, and laughs arrogantly at the devastation he has wrought and at the human weakness which “cannot bear the truth”. Dietrich Bonhoeffer, in Ethics.


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