View Poll Results: What Do YOU Believe?

Voters
64. You may not vote on this poll
  • God created all, as stated in Genesis; fully formed creations, reproducing after their kind.

    60 93.75%
  • God created all, using macro-evolution. Simple organisms to man over millions of years.

    3 4.69%
  • Multiple Gods/entities (who we don't know anything about) created everything we see.

    0 0%
  • We were seeded by aliens from another area of the universe or dimension.

    0 0%
  • We don't know what created us and the universe. Some unknown force is behind all reality.

    0 0%
  • I don't know what I believe, I am still on the fence.

    1 1.56%
  • It does not matter what you believe, I don't care.

    0 0%
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Thread: What Do YOU Believe?

  1. #46
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    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by teddyv View Post
    Respectfully, as I have tried to explain many times, the facts are not supporting your interpretation. Do not conflate truth with facts. Please stop telling millions of brothers and sisters in Christ that they are believing in fables.

    Also, thank you for the clarification of the micro-/macro-evolution definition. I have never heard the term used outside of YEC arguments in all the years I've been involved with it.
    No worries Ted, no offence was intended to any. To clarify, the above quote, you used, I had atheistic EV in mind.

    I have to call it as I see it. Remember, this is war, spiritual war, for the souls of all of mankind. For you, your family, your neighbours, co workers, your town, your country. All of us.

    Destroy Genesis, destroy the Gospel. They go hand in hand. Whether we like it or not.

    The facts do line up with what Genesis says, completely; as far as we have been able to ascertain thus far. Do we know it all ? No. Are there some difficult areas? Yes. Are we making progress in our models, yes.

    They think we follow fables, ( Global flood, Giants, Babel, talking serpents, 900 year old men) and they show a no holds barred way of telling us and BILLIONS of the lost that we follow fabels.

    This will not do. Not when the evidence so clearly supports our position.

    Again, this issue is not necessarily a salvation based issue, for some. But for others it is.

    So if your allowed to talk about your interpretation, why can't we?

    Peace

    ~bsky




  2. #47
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    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by bluesky22 View Post
    No worries Ted, no offence was intended to any. To clarify, the above quote, you used, I had atheistic EV in mind.

    I have to call it as I see it. Remember, this is war, spiritual war, for the souls of all of mankind. For you, your family, your neighbours, co workers, your town, your country. All of us.

    Destroy Genesis, destroy the Gospel. They go hand in hand. Whether we like it or not.

    The facts do line up with what Genesis says, completely; as far as we have been able to ascertain thus far. Do we know it all ? No. Are there some difficult areas? Yes. Are we making progress in our models, yes.

    They think we follow fables, ( Global flood, Giants, Babel, talking serpents, 900 year old men) and they show a no holds barred way of telling us and BILLIONS of the lost that we follow fabels.

    This will not do. Not when the evidence so clearly supports our position.

    Again, this issue is not necessarily a salvation based issue, for some. But for others it is.

    So if your allowed to talk about your interpretation, why can't we?

    Peace

    ~bsky
    You are talking about your interpretation all the time, and as far as this board goes, most agree with the position you take (see the poll), so don't make out that I am trying to stifle you because that is clearly false. I am asking that you might seriously consider why scientists, be they atheistic, agnostic, Christian, Buddhist, etc. are not coming up with the conclusions presented by the YEC scientists.

    We've gone over just a smattering of evidence in the dinosaur thread and really there is nothing compelling supporting scientific YEC, as preached by AiG et al. Sure they come up with hypotheses but they really seem to not want to be test them. For example, hydroplate theory seems to have been accepted as-is because it supports their view without any rigorous analysis of the thermodynamic implications of such a theory. It also seems to ignore physical evidence.

    Also of bigger concern, you seem to be making Genesis foundational to the gospel, when Christ is the foundation of the gospel. Don't add the millstone of YEC onto the neck of everyone. You said it's not salvific for me, but it is for others? Why? That makes no sense.
    It is only the cynic who claims “to speak the truth” at all times and in all places to all men in the same way, but who, in fact, displays nothing but a lifeless image of the truth… He dons the halo of the fanatical devotee of truth who can make no allowance for human weaknesses; but, in fact, he is destroying the living truth between men. He wounds shame, desecrates mystery, breaks confidence, betrays the community in which he lives, and laughs arrogantly at the devastation he has wrought and at the human weakness which “cannot bear the truth”. Dietrich Bonhoeffer, in Ethics.


  3. #48

    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by bluesky22 View Post
    Destroy Genesis, destroy the Gospel. They go hand in hand. Whether we like it or not.
    I'd be interested in hearing more about how non-YEC interpretations of the creation account destroy - or contribute to the destruction of - Genesis. I'm not aware of any that deny God as creator, that deny or downplay sin and its effect on creation, or that otherwise try to do away with or minimize foundational Christian doctrine and teaching, so the claim seems dubious to me.

  4. #49
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    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by teddyv View Post
    You are talking about your interpretation all the time, and as far as this board goes, most agree with the position you take (see the poll), so don't make out that I am trying to stifle you because that is clearly false. I am asking that you might seriously consider why scientists, be they atheistic, agnostic, Christian, Buddhist, etc. are not coming up with the conclusions presented by the YEC scientists.

    We've gone over just a smattering of evidence in the dinosaur thread and really there is nothing compelling supporting scientific YEC, as preached by AiG et al. Sure they come up with hypotheses but they really seem to not want to be test them. For example, hydroplate theory seems to have been accepted as-is because it supports their view without any rigorous analysis of the thermodynamic implications of such a theory. It also seems to ignore physical evidence.

    Also of bigger concern, you seem to be making Genesis foundational to the gospel, when Christ is the foundation of the gospel. Don't add the millstone of YEC onto the neck of everyone. You said it's not salvific for me, but it is for others? Why? That makes no sense.

    Ted, friend, I am not saying you are trying to stifle me or our position. You have been most gracious and willing to talk about it all. I am just saying we are entitled to a interpretation of the events and facts as much as the next guy. You asked me to stop telling millions of our brothers and sisters that the facts don't jive with Genesis as plainly read, yet they do!

    I have consider many times why more "scientists" don't accept our views, well, the reasons should be clear! Why were only 8 people saved in Genesis? 8 people.

    How many were saved out of Sodom? Think about that for a second. The whole world perished but 8 souls. I think the unfortunate reality is that more souls are lost for enterinty than are saved. Most "scientists" are not chrisitians, so why would they beleive what we believe?

    Of all the people I encounter each day in my travels at Walmart, gas stations, work, etc... are not Christians.

    There have never even heard of the gospel let alone beleive it. It should come as no surprise that so many are lost now. It only takes one generation to loose a untold numbers. Today, each man does what is right in his own eyes ( Judges 21 )

    I don't know if AiG supports hydroplate theory or not(HPT), but it does not matter if they do. AiG is not the be and end all in this arena. They have a great ministry ( which I support ) and great ideas, but they are not the definitive judge and jury on this. The thermodynamic implications as far I can understand fit nicely with HPT. The heat was absorbed by the oceans which caused the (one) great ice age.

    Believers have always been in the minority, it would seem, I see no reason why this will stop unless the gospel can conquer the whole of the earth, which it will.

    However, with all that said, thousands of real Christian scientists beleive what I have been saying. A partial list is on the Dino thread, I don't know where tho, it's too long for me find it.

    As to the connection to The gospel...if the bible is wrong about the flood, talking serpents, towers to heaven, what else does it have wrong. Is its take on sin worng. ? Is "sin" really that serious to send you to everlasting hell? Really?

    Noah Builds the Ark

    12God looked on the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth. 13Then God said to Noah, "The end of all flesh has come before Me; for the earth is filled with violence because of them; and behold, I am about to destroy them with the earth. 14"Make for yourself an ark of gopher wood; you shall make the ark with rooms, and shall cover it inside and out with pitch.…Gen 6

    …5But they deliberately overlook the fact that long ago by God’s word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6through which the world of that time perished in the flood. 7And by that same word, the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.…2 Peter 3

    …Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, in whom you have put your hope. 46If you had believed Moses, you would believe Me, because he wrote about Me. 47But since you do not believe what he wrote, how will you believe what I say?”… John 5




  5. #50
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    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by RelationsRelatingItself View Post
    I'd be interested in hearing more about how non-YEC interpretations of the creation account destroy - or contribute to the destruction of - Genesis. I'm not aware of any that deny God as creator, that deny or downplay sin and its effect on creation, or that otherwise try to do away with or minimize foundational Christian doctrine and teaching, so the claim seems dubious to me.

    Hello RRI,

    Thanks for stopping by. There are only actually a few ways of understanding Genesis. YEC is one, and the most straight forward looking at the text and using all available literary devices. (imho) All indicators are that is says exactly what happened. In real history and real time. It's broad yes, and lacks details, but is factual. If you read Genesis front to back, one is left with the impression of incredible stories and tales. 930 year old men. A single language for all of mankind. A global flood where all air breathing creatures died but 8 souls in a wooden ark. I don't how one "interprets" this any other way than how it is presented. Jesus support it, Moses supported it. It lays the foundation for our sin problem.

    If God created all the land creatures on day 6, what about what we call the "Dinosuars"? Are they included in "land animals"? If not, why not? If so, then the problem is solved. If not, then what is Genesis actualy saying? How do we rectify "dinosaurs" with Genesis ?

    You mean that all this suffering and death on earth today is because the first man and women ate a piece of forbidden fruit? Seriously?

    Yes.

    This is why Genesis is key and important and lays the foundation for the Gospel. If Genesis is not true than the gospel is not true. Did that moment of sin really happen to mankind that changed EVERYTHING? Have we really fallen? Do we really need a saviour?

    Do you see?




  6. #51

    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by bluesky22 View Post
    Hello RRI,

    Thanks for chiming in. There are only actually a few ways of understanding Genesis. YEC is one, and the most straight forward looking at the text and using all available literary devices. All indicators are that is says exactly what happened. In real history and real time. It's broad yes, and lacks details, but is factual. If you read Genesis front to back, one is left with the impression of incredible stories and tales. 930 year old men. A single language for all of mankind. A global flood where all air breathing creatures died but 8 souls in a wooden ark. I don't how one "interprets" this any other way than how it is presented. Jesus support it, Moses supported it. It lays the foundation for our sin problem.

    If God created all the land creatures on day 6, what about what we call the "Dinosuars"? Are they included in "land animals"? If not, why not? If so, then the problem is solved. If not, then what is Genesis actualy saying? How do we rectify "dinosaurs" with Genesis ?

    You mean that all this suffering and death on earth today is because the first man and women ate a piece of forbidden fruit? Seriously?

    Yes.

    This is why Genesis is key and important and lays the foundation for the Gospel. If Genesis is not true than the gospel is not true. Did that moment of sin really happen to mankind? Have we really fallen? Do we really need a saviour?

    Do you see?
    Thanks for taking the time to address my question, but I'm not sure that you've answered it. Of the ways that Genesis can be understood - by Genesis we seem to have in mind 1 - 3 mainly - we have the YEC view that you engagingly present, and I'm familiar with at least some of the others: Old Earth, Day Age, Gap, allegorical, etc. I guess the question I'm asking is why would it be the case that one of these other interpretations would result in the destruction of Genesis.

    My question is a bit academic as is, so how about a scenario? Let's say that my view of creation is partly informed by a belief in theistic evolution. I view most of Genesis 1 and 2 as involving long time spans. I'm not convinced that יום absolutely has to mean a 24 hour period, and so persist in the belief and understanding that the creation of everything except humankind was done in accordance with evolutionary processes that God established and are on some level divinely directed. When I get to Genesis 1:26 or Genesis 2:7 I understand God to have specially and directly created humanity - no evolution involved. From there I believe the Bible when it takes about men living nearly 1,000 years, a single language for all humanity, a global flood, etc. I'm not aware of any issues with dinosaurs because, as you say, the creation account is broad and lacks detail. Death also isn't an issue because I understand God's warning to refer to specifically human death. If there were no death at all then the world would be buried beneath immortal bacteria and insects!

    In this scenario I believe that Genesis is true, but I don't hold to a YEC understanding of it. You earlier suggested that non-YEC views destroy - or at least compromise - Genesis, but I don't see how what I just described does. My imagined self believes in all the points you raised, but understands differently the process God used to get to them.

    Does that make the question I'm asking more clear? Feel free to let me know if I've misunderstood.

  7. #52
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    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by RelationsRelatingItself View Post
    Thanks for taking the time to address my question, but I'm not sure that you've answered it. Of the ways that Genesis can be understood - by Genesis we seem to have in mind 1 - 3 mainly - we have the YEC view that you engagingly present, and I'm familiar with at least some of the others: Old Earth, Day Age, Gap, allegorical, etc. I guess the question I'm asking is why would it be the case that one of these other interpretations would result in the destruction of Genesis.

    .

    My question is a bit academic as is, so how about a scenario? Let's say that my view of creation is partly informed by a belief in theistic evolution. I view most of Genesis 1 and 2 as involving long time spans. I'm not convinced that יום absolutely has to mean a 24 hour period, and so persist in the belief and understanding that the creation of everything except humankind was done in accordance with evolutionary processes that God established and are on some level divinely directed. When I get to Genesis 1:26 or Genesis 2:7 I understand God to have specially and directly created humanity - no evolution involved. From there I believe the Bible when it takes about men living nearly 1,000 years, a single language for all humanity, a global flood, etc. I'm not aware of any issues with dinosaurs because, as you say, the creation account is broad and lacks detail. Death also isn't an issue because I understand God's warning to refer to specifically human death. If there were no death at all then the world would be buried beneath immortal bacteria and insects!

    In this scenario I believe that Genesis is true, but I don't hold to a YEC understanding of it. You earlier suggested that non-YEC views destroy - or at least compromise - Genesis, but I don't see how what I just described does. My imagined self believes in all the points you raised, but understands differently the process God used to get to them.

    Does that make the question I'm asking more clear? Feel free to let me know if I've misunderstood.

    Well I think I understand you now friend. Please forgive my abruptness. There can only be one truth. The law of non contradiction is in our way. There is only one true truth/interpretation to Genesis that is actually correct. It can't be all truth as you've listed as they all say diametrically opposing things.

    If mine is wrong, then so be it. Someone has to have the truth. If I said or implied that a non YEC view "destroys Genesis" I think I misspoke, sort of, or some may have misunderstood, to a degree. Let me explain.

    God wrote us left us Genesis as a true record of our beginnings, right ? So we could make sense of our existence. Sounds like the decent thing to do. It makes sense that it should make sense. Of all the "ways" to "interpret" Genesis, the YEC is, in my opinion, the best explanation. And it just so happens to agree with science & Genesis. Amazing!

    So, I guess, if your interpreting Genesis wrongly, then in essence, you are destroying Genesis. What good is a book wrongly interpreted?




  8. #53
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    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Genesis 1:26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness

    Exodus 20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day.

    Dueteronomy 4:32 “For ask now concerning the days that are past, which were before you, since the day that God created man on the earth, and ask from one end of heaven to the other, whether any great thing like this has happened, or anything like it has been heard.

    2 Kings 19:15 Then Hezekiah prayed before the Lord, and said: “O Lord God of Israel, the One who dwells between the cherubim, You are God, You alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth. You have made heaven and earth.

    Nehemiah 9:6 You alone are the Lord; You have made heaven, The heaven of heavens, with all their host, The earth and everything on it, The seas and all that is in them, And You preserve them all.

    Job 10:8 ‘Your hands have made me and fashioned me, An intricate unity

    Psalms 33:6 By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, And all the host of them by the breath of His mouth.

    Proverbs 16:4 The Lord has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

    Isaiah 37:16 “O Lord of hosts, God of Israel, the One who dwells between the cherubim, You are God, You alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth. You have made heaven and earth.

    Jeremiah 10:12 He has made the earth by His power, He has established the world by His wisdom, And has stretched out the heavens at His discretion.

    Jonah 1:9 -- So he said to them, "I am a Hebrew; and I fear the LORD, the God of heaven, who made the sea and the dry land."

    Zechariah 12:1 -- The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:

    Malachi 2:10 -- Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us? Why do we deal treacherously with one another By profaning the covenant of the fathers?

    Luke 3:23 Now Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, the son of Heli, 24 the son of Matthat,....the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

    Mark 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’

    If evolution were true, Genesis is made a liar.
    If evolution were true, Exodus is made a liar.
    If evolution were true, 2 Kings is make a liar.
    If evolution were true, Nehemiah is made a liar.
    If evolution were true, Job is made a liar.
    If evolution were true, King David is made a liar.
    If evolution were true, King Solomon is make a liar.
    If evolution were true, Isaiah is made a liar.
    If evolution were true, Jeremiah is made a liar.
    If evolution were true, Jonah is made a liar.
    If evolution were true, Zechariah is made a liar.
    If evolution were true, Malachi is made a liar
    If evolution were true, the Gospel of Luke is made a liar.
    If evolution were true, JESUS CHRIST IS MADE A LIAR.

    Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse"

    Some believe. Some do not. All are without excuse.

  9. #54

    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by bluesky22 View Post
    Well I think I understand you now friend. Please forgive my abruptness. There can only be one truth. The law of non contradiction is in our way. There is only one true truth/interpretation to Genesis that is actually correct. It can't be all truth as you've listed as they all say diametrically opposing things.

    If mine is wrong, then so be it. Someone has to have the truth. If I said or implied that a non YEC view "destroys Genesis" I think I misspoke, sort of, or some may have misunderstood, to a degree. Let me explain.

    God wrote us left us Genesis as a true record of our beginnings, right ? So we could make sense of our existence. Sounds like the decent thing to do. It makes sense that it should make sense. Of all the "ways" to "interpret" Genesis, the YEC is, in my opinion, the best explanation. And it just so happens to agree with science & Genesis. Amazing!

    So, I guess, if your interpreting Genesis wrongly, then in essence, you are destroying Genesis. What good is a book wrongly interpreted?
    I think that's a bit harsh, but lets go with it, apply it to the scenario I provided above, and see where we end up. To make clear the key points: (1) yom is understood to be figurative; (2) leading up to Genesis 1.25 evolution was the means by which God used to create; (3) death existed in nature but not for humans until after Adam and Eve sinned.

    How does this essentially destroy Genesis? (What I'm hoping to get at is that there can be a lot of disagreement of interpretation before an interpretation is considered destructive.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    Genesis 1:26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness

    Exodus 20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day.

    Dueteronomy 4:32 “For ask now concerning the days that are past, which were before you, since the day that God created man on the earth, and ask from one end of heaven to the other, whether any great thing like this has happened, or anything like it has been heard.

    2 Kings 19:15 Then Hezekiah prayed before the Lord, and said: “O Lord God of Israel, the One who dwells between the cherubim, You are God, You alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth. You have made heaven and earth.

    Nehemiah 9:6 You alone are the Lord; You have made heaven, The heaven of heavens, with all their host, The earth and everything on it, The seas and all that is in them, And You preserve them all.

    Job 10:8 ‘Your hands have made me and fashioned me, An intricate unity

    Psalms 33:6 By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, And all the host of them by the breath of His mouth.

    Proverbs 16:4 The Lord has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

    Isaiah 37:16 “O Lord of hosts, God of Israel, the One who dwells between the cherubim, You are God, You alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth. You have made heaven and earth.

    Jeremiah 10:12 He has made the earth by His power, He has established the world by His wisdom, And has stretched out the heavens at His discretion.

    Jonah 1:9 -- So he said to them, "I am a Hebrew; and I fear the LORD, the God of heaven, who made the sea and the dry land."

    Zechariah 12:1 -- The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:

    Malachi 2:10 -- Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us? Why do we deal treacherously with one another By profaning the covenant of the fathers?

    Luke 3:23 Now Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, the son of Heli, 24 the son of Matthat,....the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

    Mark 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’

    If evolution were true, Genesis is made a liar.
    If evolution were true, Exodus is made a liar.
    If evolution were true, 2 Kings is make a liar.
    If evolution were true, Nehemiah is made a liar.
    If evolution were true, Job is made a liar.
    If evolution were true, King David is made a liar.
    If evolution were true, King Solomon is make a liar.
    If evolution were true, Isaiah is made a liar.
    If evolution were true, Jeremiah is made a liar.
    If evolution were true, Jonah is made a liar.
    If evolution were true, Zechariah is made a liar.
    If evolution were true, Malachi is made a liar
    If evolution were true, the Gospel of Luke is made a liar.
    If evolution were true, JESUS CHRIST IS MADE A LIAR.

    Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse"

    Some believe. Some do not. All are without excuse.
    Hi TonyP - thanks for the verses! Can you explain how these verses contradict the scenario I provided above, and lead to the series of 'if, then' you've arrived at? You've got a foundation for something but it's a bit assertive as is. For example, if God used evolution to create everything but men and women, then how does that violate Luke 3 and Mark 10, and lead to the conclusion that 'JESUS CHRIST IS MADE A LIAR' if evolution were true?

  10. #55

    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by RelationsRelatingItself View Post
    Thanks for taking the time to address my question, but I'm not sure that you've answered it. Of the ways that Genesis can be understood - by Genesis we seem to have in mind 1 - 3 mainly - we have the YEC view that you engagingly present, and I'm familiar with at least some of the others: Old Earth, Day Age, Gap, allegorical, etc. I guess the question I'm asking is why would it be the case that one of these other interpretations would result in the destruction of Genesis.

    My question is a bit academic as is, so how about a scenario? Let's say that my view of creation is partly informed by a belief in theistic evolution. I view most of Genesis 1 and 2 as involving long time spans. I'm not convinced that יום absolutely has to mean a 24 hour period, and so persist in the belief and understanding that the creation of everything except humankind was done in accordance with evolutionary processes that God established and are on some level divinely directed. When I get to Genesis 1:26 or Genesis 2:7 I understand God to have specially and directly created humanity - no evolution involved. From there I believe the Bible when it takes about men living nearly 1,000 years, a single language for all humanity, a global flood, etc. I'm not aware of any issues with dinosaurs because, as you say, the creation account is broad and lacks detail. Death also isn't an issue because I understand God's warning to refer to specifically human death. If there were no death at all then the world would be buried beneath immortal bacteria and insects!

    In this scenario I believe that Genesis is true, but I don't hold to a YEC understanding of it. You earlier suggested that non-YEC views destroy - or at least compromise - Genesis, but I don't see how what I just described does. My imagined self believes in all the points you raised, but understands differently the process God used to get to them.

    Does that make the question I'm asking more clear? Feel free to let me know if I've misunderstood.
    My question for you is how can you biblically prove that the creation days are "long time spans" and not 24 literal hours? And also how do you biblically prove that "creation of everything except humankind was done in accordance with evolutionary processes that God established and are on some level divinely directed"? If each creation day is not 24 hours, how do you biblically explain God resting on the seventh day after creation was complete in six days? If day seven is not a literal 24 hour period, it becomes a problem because in resting on that day God instructs His people to also rest on that one day.

    I believe the main way the view you espouse compromises (at the very least) Genesis and the creation account, is that it causes many to doubt the authority of Scripture. It in fact makes suspect in the same way the serpent did in the garden when asking Eve "has God really said". So what you believe is one thing. But what you can biblically prove is something else.

    Blessings,
    RW

  11. #56

    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Before answering those I want to emphasize that my concern isn't necessarily for how the specifics are arrived at (an important question in itself), but that different Christians can arrive at different views and still be committed followers of Christ, and knowing that how do we address any disagreement that arises? In the context of 'Apologetics and Evangelism' I see this as a question really concerned with where we place our effort: reaching the unsaved or debating with other Christians on how Genesis should be understood (to the point of telling those Christians that their view is destructive and undermines the Gospel). In this case I've created an individual who has no problem with evolution as a process used by God, but that individual has been told that a wrong view of Genesis destroys Genesis, and that if evolution is true the whole Bible is wrong - but why (and there's where the question currently stands)?

    Remember, we're not talking about me but an imagine someone.

    Quote Originally Posted by RogerW View Post
    My question for you is how can you biblically prove that the creation days are "long time spans" and not 24 literal hours?
    Presumably the same way other people argue for yom meaning something other than literal 24 hour periods. I'm not interested in how my someone got there, only that he - like many other faithful Christians - are convinced of their position.

    Quote Originally Posted by RogerW View Post
    And also how do you biblically prove that "creation of everything except humankind was done in accordance with evolutionary processes that God established and are on some level divinely directed"?
    The reservation for humankind would be made on the basis that God is directly involved in the creation of Adam and Eve. It would be the difference between 'let the land produce' and 'let us make in our own image'.

    Quote Originally Posted by RogerW View Post
    If each creation day is not 24 hours, how do you biblically explain God resting on the seventh day after creation was complete in six days? If day seven is not a literal 24 hour period, it becomes a problem because in resting on that day God instructs His people to also rest on that one day.
    If the intent of the message is 'work, then rest', then the length of the days in the creation account is immaterial. Just as it's immaterial what specific day the 7th day is, or that most Western Christians work 5 days and rest for 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by RogerW View Post
    I believe the main way the view you espouse compromises (at the very least) Genesis and the creation account, is that it causes many to doubt the authority of Scripture. It in fact makes suspect in the same way the serpent did in the garden when asking Eve "has God really said". So what you believe is one thing. But what you can biblically prove is something else.

    Blessings,
    RW
    I'm not espousing any view at the moment, but I am asking questions to those who think that any view other than a non-YEC view is destructive to clarify for myself - and perhaps for them - the why of their conclusions. I know quite a few people with a view similar to the one I outlined, and they are strong believers in the authority of Scripture.

  12. #57
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    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    Genesis 1:26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness

    Exodus 20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day.

    Dueteronomy 4:32 “For ask now concerning the days that are past, which were before you, since the day that God created man on the earth, and ask from one end of heaven to the other, whether any great thing like this has happened, or anything like it has been heard.

    2 Kings 19:15 Then Hezekiah prayed before the Lord, and said: “O Lord God of Israel, the One who dwells between the cherubim, You are God, You alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth. You have made heaven and earth.

    Nehemiah 9:6 You alone are the Lord; You have made heaven, The heaven of heavens, with all their host, The earth and everything on it, The seas and all that is in them, And You preserve them all.

    Job 10:8 ‘Your hands have made me and fashioned me, An intricate unity

    Psalms 33:6 By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, And all the host of them by the breath of His mouth.

    Proverbs 16:4 The Lord has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

    Isaiah 37:16 “O Lord of hosts, God of Israel, the One who dwells between the cherubim, You are God, You alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth. You have made heaven and earth.

    Jeremiah 10:12 He has made the earth by His power, He has established the world by His wisdom, And has stretched out the heavens at His discretion.

    Jonah 1:9 -- So he said to them, "I am a Hebrew; and I fear the LORD, the God of heaven, who made the sea and the dry land."

    Zechariah 12:1 -- The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:

    Malachi 2:10 -- Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us? Why do we deal treacherously with one another By profaning the covenant of the fathers?

    Luke 3:23 Now Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, the son of Heli, 24 the son of Matthat,....the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

    Mark 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’

    If evolution were true, Genesis is made a liar.
    If evolution were true, Exodus is made a liar.
    If evolution were true, 2 Kings is make a liar.
    If evolution were true, Nehemiah is made a liar.
    If evolution were true, Job is made a liar.
    If evolution were true, King David is made a liar.
    If evolution were true, King Solomon is make a liar.
    If evolution were true, Isaiah is made a liar.
    If evolution were true, Jeremiah is made a liar.
    If evolution were true, Jonah is made a liar.
    If evolution were true, Zechariah is made a liar.
    If evolution were true, Malachi is made a liar
    If evolution were true, the Gospel of Luke is made a liar.
    If evolution were true, JESUS CHRIST IS MADE A LIAR.

    Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse"

    Some believe. Some do not. All are without excuse.
    If someone states there is no God who fashioned the earth, the heavens and creation including men and women, that is one thing.......having conversations with believers concerning HOW God (may have) created all things does not make His Word lie in anyway.

    Not one persons knows exactly HOW He did this, so there is no room for boasting.

    Not sure why you have jutted down this path, honestly.
    Peace to you!

    “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth."
    (Matthew 5:5)


  13. #58

    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by RelationsRelatingItself View Post
    Before answering those I want to emphasize that my concern isn't necessarily for how the specifics are arrived at (an important question in itself), but that different Christians can arrive at different views and still be committed followers of Christ, and knowing that how do we address any disagreement that arises? In the context of 'Apologetics and Evangelism' I see this as a question really concerned with where we place our effort: reaching the unsaved or debating with other Christians on how Genesis should be understood (to the point of telling those Christians that their view is destructive and undermines the Gospel). In this case I've created an individual who has no problem with evolution as a process used by God, but that individual has been told that a wrong view of Genesis destroys Genesis, and that if evolution is true the whole Bible is wrong - but why (and there's where the question currently stands)?

    Remember, we're not talking about me but an imagine someone.

    Presumably the same way other people argue for yom meaning something other than literal 24 hour periods. I'm not interested in how my someone got there, only that he - like many other faithful Christians - are convinced of their position.

    The reservation for humankind would be made on the basis that God is directly involved in the creation of Adam and Eve. It would be the difference between 'let the land produce' and 'let us make in our own image'.

    If the intent of the message is 'work, then rest', then the length of the days in the creation account is immaterial. Just as it's immaterial what specific day the 7th day is, or that most Western Christians work 5 days and rest for 2.

    I'm not espousing any view at the moment, but I am asking questions to those who think that any view other than a non-YEC view is destructive to clarify for myself - and perhaps for them - the why of their conclusions. I know quite a few people with a view similar to the one I outlined, and they are strong believers in the authority of Scripture.
    Our position in Christ did not come so much by "what" we know, but rather by "Whom" we know, or rather by Whom we are known by. Many Christians have gone home to be with the Lord lacking understanding of the whole, because they were securely in Christ. Again, from my own perspective the problem posed by differing points of view in the creation account is how it causes MANY to doubt the authority of Scripture. Why would one question that which is plainly written? It is not that some have not ability to understand a literal six day creation accounting given in Scripture, but that some have a bias, or preconceived opinion for a particular doctrine they bring into the creation account. Why in the first place would one question each day being a literal 24 hour period, unless they are pushing for a particular doctrine? Again, once we begin to question the authority of Scripture, are we not in reality doing exactly that which our first parents did in the beginning when they heeded the voice of the serpent and doubted God? So unless one is able to biblically prove theistic evolution, or long spans of time in the creation story, then it is mere opinion, and not supported through the Scripture. Just as questioning what God had plainly said in the beginning, we, like our first parents have a tendency to do the same thing. Remember this is how sin, and then death through sin entered into God's glorious creation. So until one can show through Scripture why we should not accept the creation story as a literal six day creation account, then I refuse to accept an opinion not based in biblical fact.

    Blessings,
    RW

  14. #59

    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by RogerW View Post
    Our position in Christ did not come so much by "what" we know, but rather by "Whom" we know, or rather by Whom we are known by. Many Christians have gone home to be with the Lord lacking understanding of the whole, because they were securely in Christ. Again, from my own perspective the problem posed by differing points of view in the creation account is how it causes MANY to doubt the authority of Scripture.
    Are you saying that differing points of view of the creation account is uniquely problematic in that 'it causes MANY to doubt the authority of Scripture', or that different points of view in themselves '[cause] MANY to doubt the authority of Scripture'? If different points of view is a problem then it would seem to be a problem regardless of subject - in which case discussion becomes impossible for fear of causing anyone to doubt - but then how do different points of view cause doubt - are differing viewpoints the problem or is it something else? - and is that reason enough not to pursue truth when we know that faith in Christ is what matters, not affirmation of doctrinal teaching A, B, or C (necessarily)?

    Quote Originally Posted by RogerW View Post
    Why would one question that which is plainly written? It is not that some have not ability to understand a literal six day creation accounting given in Scripture, but that some have a bias, or preconceived opinion for a particular doctrine they bring into the creation account. Why in the first place would one question each day being a literal 24 hour period, unless they are pushing for a particular doctrine?
    Maybe what's plain to you isn't plain to someone else. Disagreement doesn't have to be the result of something sinister like 'pushing for a particular doctrine' (presumably one that undermines the Gospel).

    Quote Originally Posted by RogerW View Post
    Again, once we begin to question the authority of Scripture, are we not in reality doing exactly that which our first parents did in the beginning when they heeded the voice of the serpent and doubted God?
    It wouldn't be a matter of questioning the authority of Scripture, but of questioning a particular viewpoint in pursuit of better understanding what Scripture teaches.

    Quote Originally Posted by RogerW View Post
    So unless one is able to biblically prove theistic evolution, or long spans of time in the creation story, then it is mere opinion, and not supported through the Scripture.
    There are two distinct questions: first, is theistic evolution compatible or incompatible with the creation narrative, and second, what do we do with the answer if it's not incompatible, but there's no specific mention of it (just as there's no specific mention of bacteria)?

    Quote Originally Posted by RogerW View Post
    Just as questioning what God had plainly said in the beginning, we, like our first parents have a tendency to do the same thing. Remember this is how sin, and then death through sin entered into God's glorious creation. So until one can show through Scripture why we should not accept the creation story as a literal six day creation account, then I refuse to accept an opinion not based in biblical fact.

    Blessings,
    RW
    I really don't desire a debate on how Genesis should be understood. I'm interested in what we do when we have genuine disagreement.

  15. #60

    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by RelationsRelatingItself View Post
    Are you saying that differing points of view of the creation account is uniquely problematic in that 'it causes MANY to doubt the authority of Scripture', or that different points of view in themselves '[cause] MANY to doubt the authority of Scripture'? If different points of view is a problem then it would seem to be a problem regardless of subject - in which case discussion becomes impossible for fear of causing anyone to doubt - but then how do different points of view cause doubt - are differing viewpoints the problem or is it something else? - and is that reason enough not to pursue truth when we know that faith in Christ is what matters, not affirmation of doctrinal teaching A, B, or C (necessarily)?

    Maybe what's plain to you isn't plain to someone else. Disagreement doesn't have to be the result of something sinister like 'pushing for a particular doctrine' (presumably one that undermines the Gospel).

    It wouldn't be a matter of questioning the authority of Scripture, but of questioning a particular viewpoint in pursuit of better understanding what Scripture teaches.

    There are two distinct questions: first, is theistic evolution compatible or incompatible with the creation narrative, and second, what do we do with the answer if it's not incompatible, but there's no specific mention of it (just as there's no specific mention of bacteria)?

    I really don't desire a debate on how Genesis should be understood. I'm interested in what we do when we have genuine disagreement.
    What I can say with absolute certainty is that no one is saved through knowledge, perfect or otherwise. We are saved by grace through faith. But what do we do with the knowledge that we do have? Any doctrine that causes one to question the authority of Scripture should be questioned and exposed. The denial of the doctrine of the six day creation story has caused more people to question the authority of Scripture then any other doctrine that I can think of. There is a reason that evolution is so popular and overwhelmingly embraced by the world. If we ask ourselves what this doctrine truly states, it is little wonder that the theory of an old earth, and evolution are the excuse that many of the world, and even many in the church, use to question "what sayeth God"! Again, I am not interested in ones opinions of Scripture, but what one can biblically prove through Scripture. What do we do when we have disagreement over doctrine? Turn to the Word of God, and either prove what we allege or accept truth found there.

    Blessings,
    RW

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