View Poll Results: What Do YOU Believe?

Voters
50. You may not vote on this poll
  • God created all, as stated in Genesis; fully formed creations, reproducing after their kind.

    46 92.00%
  • God created all, using macro-evolution. Simple organisms to man over millions of years.

    3 6.00%
  • Multiple Gods/entities (who we don't know anything about) created everything we see.

    0 0%
  • We were seeded by aliens from another area of the universe or dimension.

    0 0%
  • We don't know what created us and the universe. Some unknown force is behind all reality.

    0 0%
  • I don't know what I believe, I am still on the fence.

    1 2.00%
  • It does not matter what you believe, I don't care.

    0 0%
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Thread: What Do YOU Believe?

  1. #61
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    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    I don't deny the authority of scripture or have any reason to doubt God's Word and I obviously have a differing view from most on this thread.

    If anyone is going to make suppositions that there are people who are pushed away from Christianity because there are Christians who see the study of science as something that is not worldly but a part of who He made us to be, the same could be said of those who are pushed away by Christians who hold to a YEC viewpoint.
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  2. #62
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    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
    I don't deny the authority of scripture or have any reason to doubt God's Word and I obviously have a differing view from most on this thread.

    If anyone is going to make suppositions that there are people who are pushed away from Christianity because there are Christians who see the study of science as something that is not worldly but a part of who He made us to be, the same could be said of those who are pushed away by Christians who hold to a YEC viewpoint.
    The 'authority of Scripture' seems always to become equivalent to 'plain reading of Scripture'.
    It is only the cynic who claims “to speak the truth” at all times and in all places to all men in the same way, but who, in fact, displays nothing but a lifeless image of the truth… He dons the halo of the fanatical devotee of truth who can make no allowance for human weaknesses; but, in fact, he is destroying the living truth between men. He wounds shame, desecrates mystery, breaks confidence, betrays the community in which he lives, and laughs arrogantly at the devastation he has wrought and at the human weakness which “cannot bear the truth”. Dietrich Bonhoeffer, in Ethics.


  3. #63
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    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by RogerW View Post
    What I can say with absolute certainty is that no one is saved through knowledge, perfect or otherwise. We are saved by grace through faith. But what do we do with the knowledge that we do have? Any doctrine that causes one to question the authority of Scripture should be questioned and exposed. The denial of the doctrine of the six day creation story has caused more people to question the authority of Scripture then any other doctrine that I can think of. There is a reason that evolution is so popular and overwhelmingly embraced by the world. If we ask ourselves what this doctrine truly states, it is little wonder that the theory of an old earth, and evolution are the excuse that many of the world, and even many in the church, use to question "what sayeth God"! Again, I am not interested in ones opinions of Scripture, but what one can biblically prove through Scripture. What do we do when we have disagreement over doctrine? Turn to the Word of God, and either prove what we allege or accept truth found there.

    Blessings,
    RW
    Good points RW. I have never said believing a non YEC interpretation negates the Gospel. For some, rectifying today's science "authorities" with the stories in Genesis proves too much and they abandon it all, Gospel and all. Someone above made a good point, why can't Genesis be understood exactly how it reads? Nothing.

    As read, genesis, does not conflict with science. However, many of mans assumptions do cause problems. But as I have tried to show, the data can nicely be interpreted within a plain reading of Genesis. In my humble opinion, some Christians are missing the amazing comfort and confidence that genesis gives when understood exactly as it reads.
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  4. #64
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    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by RelationsRelatingItself View Post
    Are you saying that differing points of view of the creation account is uniquely problematic in that 'it causes MANY to doubt the authority of Scripture', or that different points of view in themselves '[cause] MANY to doubt the authority of Scripture'? If different points of view is a problem then it would seem to be a problem regardless of subject - in which case discussion becomes impossible for fear of causing anyone to doubt - but then how do different points of view cause doubt - are differing viewpoints the problem or is it something else? - and is that reason enough not to pursue truth when we know that faith in Christ is what matters, not affirmation of doctrinal teaching A, B, or C (necessarily)?



    Maybe what's plain to you isn't plain to someone else. Disagreement doesn't have to be the result of something sinister like 'pushing for a particular doctrine' (presumably one that undermines the Gospel).



    It wouldn't be a matter of questioning the authority of Scripture, but of questioning a particular viewpoint in pursuit of better understanding what Scripture teaches.



    There are two distinct questions: first, is theistic evolution compatible or incompatible with the creation narrative, and second, what do we do with the answer if it's not incompatible, but there's no specific mention of it (just as there's no specific mention of bacteria)?



    I really don't desire a debate on how Genesis should be understood. I'm interested in what we do when we have genuine disagreement.
    All we can do when we have a genuine disagreement is talk and discuss, as we now are. The truth should reveal itself with a honest and prayerful examination of all facts and angles. We may still not agree however, in the end, which is ok, God gracefully gives us much latitude it seems on these issues, as long as we accept the gospel. I do not beleive that theistic EV is compatible with the creation narrative. The only reason one would need to invoke this, is because one believes mans assumptions over Genesis.

    Regards

    Blue

    "Come let us reason together " Isaiah 1:18
    True Truth Exists & Can Be Found.

    A gentle answer turns away wrath; but a harsh word stirs up anger.
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  5. #65
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    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by RelationsRelatingItself View Post
    Hi TonyP - thanks for the verses! Can you explain how these verses contradict the scenario I provided above, and lead to the series of 'if, then' you've arrived at? You've got a foundation for something but it's a bit assertive as is. For example, if God used evolution to create everything but men and women, then how does that violate Luke 3 and Mark 10, and lead to the conclusion that 'JESUS CHRIST IS MADE A LIAR' if evolution were true?
    Honestly, there is no legitimate way to translate the days in Genesis 1 as long spans of time. I have tried, but it take intellectual dishonesty to create new definitions to the Hebrew words used. If someone wants to believe something else, that is fine with me. I am not responsible for anyone else's thinking, only my own.

    As to Luke 3 and Mark 10, both gospels make the literal Genesis interpretation the only one.

    Luke 3 has the genealogy of Jesus all the way back to Adam. the son of God. Adam was created directly by God himself, fully formed and fully grown. Adam cannot be the product of evolution and still be called the son of God. He would be the son of the "almost Adam" if evolution were true. Either God created Adam from dust, or He didn't. Genesis has a clear point of view that is stated plainly. Luke also has this same confidence. If Adam was a product of evolution, when and how was the distinction made between Adam and the 99.9999% version of Adam? What point did that final chromosome fall into place where God said, "Aha, behold a man!" That whole thought process is strange at least.

    Finally, Mark 10 blows away any remote theory of evolution. In a discussion with the Pharisees, Jesus drops this bomb.

    Mark 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’

    Jesus most clearly gave his interpretation of creation. He should know, He was there. From the beginning of creation, God made them male and female. Jesus didn't say, "After eons after creation, God evolved them male and female." Now, it is plain as day what Jesus said and believed. If someone want to disagree with Jesus, fine by me. I would just rather take His word, which also confirms exactly what Genesis actually says. Everyone has to make their own choice as to what they believe.


    I will go beyond what I have just written for a moment. Man has no righteousness of his own as scripture says. God credits us righteousness based on what we believe.

    Romans 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

    What is the gain in believing in evolution which grossly contradicts the Bible? Perhaps, love from this world. Who cares about that in the end? The creation account as described in Genesis and confirmed by Jesus is another opportunity to be accredited righteousness. All we have to do is believe it. I will choose, by and act of my will, to believe God at every opportunity. We are justified by faith, not by works. The creation account is another easy story to believe in order to be seen as righteous before God. I'll take it. I don't care what the "science" community has to say about the matter. The only opinion that matters to me is God's. Why turn my nose up at such low hanging fruit? I won't discard this gift.

    (Please do not take my assertiveness personally. It isn't meant for you, or anyone else that sees things differently. There is another reason for it altogether.)

  6. #66
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    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
    If someone states there is no God who fashioned the earth, the heavens and creation including men and women, that is one thing.......having conversations with believers concerning HOW God (may have) created all things does not make His Word lie in anyway.

    Not one persons knows exactly HOW He did this, so there is no room for boasting.

    Not sure why you have jutted down this path, honestly.
    Boasting? I just listed scripture. Lots of it. And none of it supports evolution. Outside of God himself, the highest possible authority on this matter is Jesus. He was there during creation as a master craftsmen. (Proverbs 9, John 1, etc.)

    Mark 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’

    It doesn't get much more simple than that. What profit is there in arguing against Jesus?

  7. #67
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    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    Boasting? I just listed scripture. Lots of it. And none of it supports evolution. Outside of God himself, the highest possible authority on this matter is Jesus. He was there during creation as a master craftsmen. (Proverbs 9, John 1, etc.)

    Mark 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’

    It doesn't get much more simple than that. What profit is there in arguing against Jesus?
    From RRI's hypothetical, his someone believes in a special creation of humanity, therefore this perhaps negates a human evolutionary pathway, it does not negate the remaining part of the living creation. Remember that quote is specifically directed at humanity and their relationships.
    It is only the cynic who claims “to speak the truth” at all times and in all places to all men in the same way, but who, in fact, displays nothing but a lifeless image of the truth… He dons the halo of the fanatical devotee of truth who can make no allowance for human weaknesses; but, in fact, he is destroying the living truth between men. He wounds shame, desecrates mystery, breaks confidence, betrays the community in which he lives, and laughs arrogantly at the devastation he has wrought and at the human weakness which “cannot bear the truth”. Dietrich Bonhoeffer, in Ethics.


  8. #68
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    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    Honestly, there is no legitimate way to translate the days in Genesis 1 as long spans of time. I have tried, but it take intellectual dishonesty to create new definitions to the Hebrew words used. If someone wants to believe something else, that is fine with me. I am not responsible for anyone else's thinking, only my own.

    As to Luke 3 and Mark 10, both gospels make the literal Genesis interpretation the only one.

    Luke 3 has the genealogy of Jesus all the way back to Adam. the son of God. Adam was created directly by God himself, fully formed and fully grown. Adam cannot be the product of evolution and still be called the son of God. He would be the son of the "almost Adam" if evolution were true. Either God created Adam from dust, or He didn't. Genesis has a clear point of view that is stated plainly. Luke also has this same confidence. If Adam was a product of evolution, when and how was the distinction made between Adam and the 99.9999% version of Adam? What point did that final chromosome fall into place where God said, "Aha, behold a man!" That whole thought process is strange at least.

    Finally, Mark 10 blows away any remote theory of evolution. In a discussion with the Pharisees, Jesus drops this bomb.

    Mark 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’

    Jesus most clearly gave his interpretation of creation. He should know, He was there. From the beginning of creation, God made them male and female. Jesus didn't say, "After eons after creation, God evolved them male and female." Now, it is plain as day what Jesus said and believed. If someone want to disagree with Jesus, fine by me. I would just rather take His word, which also confirms exactly what Genesis actually says. Everyone has to make their own choice as to what they believe.


    I will go beyond what I have just written for a moment. Man has no righteousness of his own as scripture says. God credits us righteousness based on what we believe.

    Romans 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

    What is the gain in believing in evolution which grossly contradicts the Bible? Perhaps, love from this world. Who cares about that in the end? The creation account as described in Genesis and confirmed by Jesus is another opportunity to be accredited righteousness. All we have to do is believe it. I will choose, by and act of my will, to believe God at every opportunity. We are justified by faith, not by works. The creation account is another easy story to believe in order to be seen as righteous before God. I'll take it. I don't care what the "science" community has to say about the matter. The only opinion that matters to me is God's. Why turn my nose up at such low hanging fruit? I won't discard this gift.

    (Please do not take my assertiveness personally. It isn't meant for you, or anyone else that sees things differently. There is another reason for it altogether.)


    Nicely stated brother. Great points.

    I would also add there is no reason to add/insert long periods of time to Genesis. We don't need them. The data fits exactly as Genesis lays out. Of course Satan would discredit what Genesis clearly implies, he is the Father of lies (John 8:44) if I were Satan, this is exactly what I would attack.

    Here's the rub. I agree with "evolution" in general. (As loosely defined) It's clearly happening.

    I can see why they think what they do. I can see why billions think it's the truth. They are PARTIALLY right. They see a "form" of evolution actually happening ( they are right) but then, they extrapolate. They do not see the other side of the coin. There is a biblical way to understand what we see. And it agrees with Genesis.

    It's all in the definition. God made creatures to reproduce after their kind. He "built-in" massive ability to change in the the creature "kinds". This change is what we see today as "evolution". There is lots to this process. It's this micro "change" that EV's have confused with macro "change". They see molecules to man, yet the truth is massive potential change within the created "kinds".

    We see this happening today. We see it in fossil record. We read it in Genesis. Why is there a problem ?
    True Truth Exists & Can Be Found.

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  9. #69
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    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by RogerW View Post
    What I can say with absolute certainty is that no one is saved through knowledge, perfect or otherwise. We are saved by grace through faith. But what do we do with the knowledge that we do have? Any doctrine that causes one to question the authority of Scripture should be questioned and exposed. The denial of the doctrine of the six day creation story has caused more people to question the authority of Scripture then any other doctrine that I can think of. There is a reason that evolution is so popular and overwhelmingly embraced by the world. If we ask ourselves what this doctrine truly states, it is little wonder that the theory of an old earth, and evolution are the excuse that many of the world, and even many in the church, use to question "what sayeth God"! Again, I am not interested in ones opinions of Scripture, but what one can biblically prove through Scripture. What do we do when we have disagreement over doctrine? Turn to the Word of God, and either prove what we allege or accept truth found there.

    Blessings,
    RW
    Well stated, brother!

    If we take an objective outside view of the last 100 years or so, we can see two opposing trends. One, the decline of faith in Christ in our country. Two, the rise of evolution theory in our country. The two are directly related. Evolution increased while faith decreased over the last 100 years. This isn't a coincidence.

  10. #70
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    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by teddyv View Post
    From RRI's hypothetical, his someone believes in a special creation of humanity, therefore this perhaps negates a human evolutionary pathway, it does not negate the remaining part of the living creation. Remember that quote is specifically directed at humanity and their relationships.

    Good point Ted I agree. However, why not assume the same relationship exists with the rest of creation? Your right. We can't assume that; but we are not really assuming it, as the text spells it out plainly. If he can create man *boom* why not the rest ?
    True Truth Exists & Can Be Found.

    A gentle answer turns away wrath; but a harsh word stirs up anger.
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  11. #71

    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by bluesky22 View Post
    Nicely stated brother. Great points.

    I would also add there is no reason to add/insert long periods of time to Genesis. We don't need them. The data fits exactly as Genesis lays out. Of course Satan would discredit what Genesis clearly implies, he is the Father of lies (John 8:44) if I were Satan, this is exactly what I would attack.

    Here's the rub. I agree with "evolution" in general. (As loosely defined) It's clearly happening.

    I can see why they think what they do. I can see why billions think it's the truth. They are PARTIALLY right. They see a "form" of evolution actually happening ( they are right) but then, they extrapolate. They do not see the other side of the coin. There is a biblical way to understand what we see. And it agrees with Genesis.

    It's all in the definition. God made creatures to reproduce after their kind. He "built-in" massive ability to change in the the creature "kinds". This change is what we see today as "evolution". There is lots to this process. It's this micro "change" that EV's have confused with macro "change". They see molecules to man, yet the truth is massive potential change within the created "kinds".

    We see this happening today. We see it in fossil record. We read it in Genesis. Why is there a problem ?
    I don't define this change in creatures as evolution, but rather adaptation to one's environment. As you say it is all in the definition. The way I understand the actual process of evolution would be to discover a creature that began a certain species, and through the process of evolving became another species. In fact to believe in evolution, would it not be necessary to see creatures evolving into something better? Do we see that in the world around us? I would argue that things are not evolving, but devolving as this world winds down and passes away. But then again perhaps it is simply that I don't have the scientific understanding for defining evolution???

    Blessings,
    RW

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    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by RogerW View Post
    I don't define this change in creatures as evolution, but rather adaptation to one's environment. As you say it is all in the definition. The way I understand the actual process of evolution would be to discover a creature that began a certain species, and through the process of evolving became another species. In fact to believe in evolution, would it not be necessary to see creatures evolving into something better? Do we see that in the world around us? I would argue that things are not evolving, but devolving as this world winds down and passes away. But then again perhaps it is simply that I don't have the scientific understanding for defining evolution???

    Blessings,
    RW

    I agree RW your spot on brother, and you have changed my mind! Forget the term "evolution" all together. Their construct. We don't need their inventions. God created kinds, and these kinds adapt and change depending on the stressor. We don't need to call that "micro-evolution". Who says we have to? Let's call it , "Kind Adaptation" for tonight. :-)
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  13. #73
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    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by teddyv View Post
    From RRI's hypothetical, his someone believes in a special creation of humanity, therefore this perhaps negates a human evolutionary pathway, it does not negate the remaining part of the living creation. Remember that quote is specifically directed at humanity and their relationships.
    I must have missed that part of the hypothetical. But, honestly, it sounds like one is jumping out from the path of an oncoming semi only to land in the path of an oncoming train.

    So, everything else evolved over billions of years and then God decided to make man one day? Is that how the hypothetical goes?

    First, that is directly opposed to Genesis.

    Second, what did Jesus say? "From the beginning of creation, God made them male and female." Where are the billions of years between creation and man, since Jesus said man was made from the beginning of creation? Since man was made from the beginning of creation, where is the time for evolution? Since Adam?

  14. #74
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    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    Boasting? I just listed scripture. Lots of it. And none of it supports evolution. Outside of God himself, the highest possible authority on this matter is Jesus. He was there during creation as a master craftsmen. (Proverbs 9, John 1, etc.)

    Mark 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’

    It doesn't get much more simple than that. What profit is there in arguing against Jesus?
    You are talking to Christians who believe in God, but not speaking to them as should be spoken.
    That is what I take issue with.

    I read all of the scriptures I do not refute that God created all things. I also did not mention evolution, and this is because I do not really know how God created things, I just know regarding scripture that the plants grew, like plants grow today.

    I mean one could get nick picky with the scripture you posted...I mean maybe we should take it word for word and say well...In Genesis 1 man was created on the 6th day, not the first day----so how could it be the beginning of creation?

    I say it can be from the beginning because God planned from the beginning what he wished to create as it was in His mind, it came into being..however He chose it to come into being, a manner that we do not know----but humans have this great desire to make everything fit into what we can understand, forgetting how much bigger God's eternal mind is than our own.


    Conversation is blown for me.
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  15. #75
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    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    I must have missed that part of the hypothetical. But, honestly, it sounds like one is jumping out from the path of an oncoming semi only to land in the path of an oncoming train.

    So, everything else evolved over billions of years and then God decided to make man one day? Is that how the hypothetical goes?

    First, that is directly opposed to Genesis.

    Second, what did Jesus say? "From the beginning of creation, God made them male and female." Where are the billions of years between creation and man, since Jesus said man was made from the beginning of creation? Since man was made from the beginning of creation, where is the time for evolution? Since Adam?
    I concur Tony. (I have to add some charters here as this thing won't let me post my first sentence alone. )
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