View Poll Results: What Do YOU Believe?

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  • God created all, as stated in Genesis; fully formed creations, reproducing after their kind.

    60 93.75%
  • God created all, using macro-evolution. Simple organisms to man over millions of years.

    3 4.69%
  • Multiple Gods/entities (who we don't know anything about) created everything we see.

    0 0%
  • We were seeded by aliens from another area of the universe or dimension.

    0 0%
  • We don't know what created us and the universe. Some unknown force is behind all reality.

    0 0%
  • I don't know what I believe, I am still on the fence.

    1 1.56%
  • It does not matter what you believe, I don't care.

    0 0%
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Thread: What Do YOU Believe?

  1. #256
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    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    Because most don't know about the « purpose of the aions » (Eph. 3:11) all kind of misconceptions have arised. In Scripture a sequence of five aions can be found and Gen. 1 starts with the first in v. 1: « In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. » The corresponding « world » is destroyed by God because of the sin of Satan, this is the « world that then was », 2 Pet. 3:6. V. 2 is the beginning of the second aion, the chaos we see is not created, God does not create chaos:

    Isa 45:18 « For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. »

    This should be enough to make us realize the chaos we are presented with in Gen. 1:2 is the result of a catastrophe, which in Scripture is referred to as « over throw » or « casting down », but is translated as « foundation » obscuring what actually occurred. Peter calls this « ... the world that then was, being overflowed (katakluzo) with water ... ». This is not Noah's flood, he addresses that in the previous chapter :

    2Pe 2:5 « And spared not the ancient world, but preserved Noah (and seven others ), a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood (kataklusmos) upon the world of the ungodly; »

    These are two events, two aions ending in a catastrophe involving water, that's why the world was covered with water when God's Spirit flowed over it.

    Knowing this the seven days in Gen. 1 appear in totally different light, it wasn't the creation of the planet earth, but an overhaul of it, if I may say so.

    Aristarkos
    Not sure if I understand your post correctly, are you saying there were actually 2 Floods?

  2. #257
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    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by ProDeo View Post
    Not sure if I understand your post correctly, are you saying there were actually 2 Floods?
    Two destructions by water yes, one called « katakluzo » which means to « dash down » i.e. water that came down and the flood of Noah which is called « kataklusmos » i.e. the flood. Two words, two events, two aions.

    Aristarkos

  3. #258
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    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    Two destructions by water yes, one called « katakluzo » which means to « dash down » i.e. water that came down and the flood of Noah which is called « kataklusmos » i.e. the flood. Two words, two events, two aions.

    Aristarkos
    It's an interesting theory but it would help if you elaborate a bit.

    #1. I see he words katakluzo and kataklusmos referred to the same Greek strong 2627 [link] used 4 times in the NT meaning Noah's flood, including 2 Peter 2:5.

    #2. Also in the 2 Peter 2 chapter itself I see no convincing evidence.

    5 if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah

    To me the ancient world means the world from Adam till Noah, the word "but" is pretty convincing to my taste since it makes a connection between the ancient world and Noah.

    Other then that I do believe the Flood ends an aion.

  4. #259
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    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by ProDeo View Post
    It's an interesting theory but it would help if you elaborate a bit.

    #1. I see he words katakluzo and kataklusmos referred to the same Greek strong 2627 [link] used 4 times in the NT meaning Noah's flood, including 2 Peter 2:5.

    #2. Also in the 2 Peter 2 chapter itself I see no convincing evidence.

    5 if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah

    To me the ancient world means the world from Adam till Noah, the word "but" is pretty convincing to my taste since it makes a connection between the ancient world and Noah.

    Other then that I do believe the Flood ends an aion.
    In Gen. 1 we read:

    Gen 1:2 « And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. »

    This is of course before Noah's flood, yet the earth was covered with water, proof is:

    Gen 1:9 « And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. »

    So we are confronted with a world totally covered in water before the 7 day restoration and most certainly before Noah's flood which was 1656 years later. Hence two times the earth was covered in water and that is exactly what Peter tells us.

    The first time the end of the first aion:

    2Pe 3:6 « Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: »

    The second time the end of the second aion:

    2Pe 2:5 « And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; »

    Since we are urged to pay attention to the things that differ (Php. 1:10) these events are not the same. Kataklusmos and katakluzo are not identical like a waterfall and water falling are not identical even though in both events water goes from up to down. The same for « the world that then was » and « the old world ». The Holy Spirit deliberately uses different words for different events.

    Aristarkos

  5. #260
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    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    This is all pretty much standard Gap Theory stuff, a recreation story. It sort of solves problems with fossils and ancient earth. I am of the opinion that this is borrowing the primodial chaos imagery of the sea. Just in this case there was no cosmic battle between some gods.
    It is only the cynic who claims “to speak the truth” at all times and in all places to all men in the same way, but who, in fact, displays nothing but a lifeless image of the truth… He dons the halo of the fanatical devotee of truth who can make no allowance for human weaknesses; but, in fact, he is destroying the living truth between men. He wounds shame, desecrates mystery, breaks confidence, betrays the community in which he lives, and laughs arrogantly at the devastation he has wrought and at the human weakness which “cannot bear the truth”. Dietrich Bonhoeffer, in Ethics.


  6. #261
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    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    In Gen. 1 we read:

    Gen 1:2 « And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. »

    This is of course before Noah's flood, yet the earth was covered with water, proof is:

    Gen 1:9 « And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. »

    So we are confronted with a world totally covered in water before the 7 day restoration and most certainly before Noah's flood which was 1656 years later. Hence two times the earth was covered in water and that is exactly what Peter tells us.

    The first time the end of the first aion:

    2Pe 3:6 « Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: »

    The second time the end of the second aion:

    2Pe 2:5 « And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; »

    Since we are urged to pay attention to the things that differ (Php. 1:10) these events are not the same. Kataklusmos and katakluzo are not identical like a waterfall and water falling are not identical even though in both events water goes from up to down. The same for « the world that then was » and « the old world ». The Holy Spirit deliberately uses different words for different events.

    Aristarkos
    So 2 Peter 2:5 is about Noah after all (second Flood) and 2 Peter 3:6 is about the first Flood between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2. Do I understand that right?

    If so, then who (or what) was destroyed during the first Flood and why?

  7. #262
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    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    In Gen. 1 we read:

    Gen 1:2 « And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. »

    This is of course before Noah's flood, yet the earth was covered with water, proof is:

    Gen 1:9 « And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. »

    So we are confronted with a world totally covered in water before the 7 day restoration and most certainly before Noah's flood which was 1656 years later. Hence two times the earth was covered in water and that is exactly what Peter tells us.

    The first time the end of the first aion:

    2Pe 3:6 « Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: »

    The second time the end of the second aion:

    2Pe 2:5 « And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; »

    Since we are urged to pay attention to the things that differ (Php. 1:10) these events are not the same. Kataklusmos and katakluzo are not identical like a waterfall and water falling are not identical even though in both events water goes from up to down. The same for « the world that then was » and « the old world ». The Holy Spirit deliberately uses different words for different events.

    Aristarkos
    We agree that the watery world was created first before dry land and biological life existed (day 3 onwards). This does not automatically mean that there was some form of earlier biological life.

    2 Peter 3:6 could easily refer to Noah's flood, the context does not favor an earlier flood.

  8. #263
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    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by ProDeo View Post
    So 2 Peter 2:5 is about Noah after all (second Flood) and 2 Peter 3:6 is about the first Flood between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2. Do I understand that right?

    If so, then who (or what) was destroyed during the first Flood and why?
    Eze 28:11 — 16 « Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. »

    This was in the first aion when Satan sinned. There was no humanity and God ended it. So the planet was destroyed and we do not know how long it laid there. God was going to make man, that's where it started again and we only read basically what happened from there.

    Aristarkos

  9. #264
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    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    Eze 28:11 — 16 « Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. »

    This was in the first aion when Satan sinned. There was no humanity and God ended it. So the planet was destroyed and we do not know how long it laid there. God was going to make man, that's where it started again and we only read basically what happened from there.

    Aristarkos
    So you believe the Earth before Adam was inhabited by a race of cherubs. And like with A&E there was a garden called Eden which description (beauty) shows a similarity with Rev 21:9-26 to a great extend.

    While I don't exclude this possibility the evidence you showed is pretty thin as I already laid out in post post #258.

    First of all you go against the Biblehub interpretation of the greek strong 2627 which makes no difference beween Matt, Luke and 2 Pet 2:5 regarding the word Flood. You haven't responded on that.

    You haven't responded on my second point also.

    Also that there is no good reason to read a pre-Noah flood into 2 Pet 3:6.

    But I like the picture on the Wiki, explains gap theory quite well.

    GAP theory.jpg

  10. #265
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    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by ProDeo View Post
    So you believe the Earth before Adam was inhabited by a race of cherubs. And like with A&E there was a garden called Eden which description (beauty) shows a similarity with Rev 21:9-26 to a great extend.

    While I don't exclude this possibility the evidence you showed is pretty thin as I already laid out in post post #258.

    First of all you go against the Biblehub interpretation of the greek strong 2627 which makes no difference beween Matt, Luke and 2 Pet 2:5 regarding the word Flood. You haven't responded on that.

    You haven't responded on my second point also.

    Also that there is no good reason to read a pre-Noah flood into 2 Pet 3:6.

    But I like the picture on the Wiki, explains gap theory quite well.

    GAP theory.jpg
    I did responded to your points in this post:

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    In Gen. 1 we read:

    Gen 1:2 « And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. »

    This is of course before Noah's flood, yet the earth was covered with water, proof is:

    Gen 1:9 « And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. »

    So we are confronted with a world totally covered in water before the 7 day restoration and most certainly before Noah's flood which was 1656 years later. Hence two times the earth was covered in water and that is exactly what Peter tells us.

    The first time the end of the first aion:

    2Pe 3:6 « Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: »

    The second time the end of the second aion:

    2Pe 2:5 « And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; »

    Since we are urged to pay attention to the things that differ (Php. 1:10) these events are not the same. Kataklusmos and katakluzo are not identical like a waterfall and water falling are not identical even though in both events water goes from up to down. The same for « the world that then was » and « the old world ». The Holy Spirit deliberately uses different words for different events.
    The earth was inhabited with spiritual beings and Cherubs were part of it. I understand this is very little but since there were no humans, it is not for us to stay there. It was there, there was life (spiritual) and that's it. The next aion and the one after that (the current) are more to our concern.

    Aristarkos

  11. #266
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    Re: What Do YOU Believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by ProDeo View Post
    So you believe the Earth before Adam was inhabited by a race of cherubs. And like with A&E there was a garden called Eden which description (beauty) shows a similarity with Rev 21:9-26 to a great extend.

    While I don't exclude this possibility the evidence you showed is pretty thin as I already laid out in post post #258.

    First of all you go against the Biblehub interpretation of the greek strong 2627 which makes no difference beween Matt, Luke and 2 Pet 2:5 regarding the word Flood. You haven't responded on that.

    You haven't responded on my second point also.

    Also that there is no good reason to read a pre-Noah flood into 2 Pet 3:6.

    But I like the picture on the Wiki, explains gap theory quite well.

    GAP theory.jpg
    That image is a better suggestion of the 'cosmic battle' language of the Babylonian myths. This has been suggested in the Biblical narrative, particularly the 'spirit hovering over the waters'. Except there is no battle in the Bible, it is just order from chaos.
    It is only the cynic who claims “to speak the truth” at all times and in all places to all men in the same way, but who, in fact, displays nothing but a lifeless image of the truth… He dons the halo of the fanatical devotee of truth who can make no allowance for human weaknesses; but, in fact, he is destroying the living truth between men. He wounds shame, desecrates mystery, breaks confidence, betrays the community in which he lives, and laughs arrogantly at the devastation he has wrought and at the human weakness which “cannot bear the truth”. Dietrich Bonhoeffer, in Ethics.


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