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Thread: Scriptural capabilities of the Immortal Body to come...

  1. #16
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    Re: Scriptural capabilities of the Immortal Body to come...

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel567 View Post
    According to this forum (and Scripture), Soul-Sleep is false doctrine. Christians are directly in the presence of the Lord in Heaven and certainly not asleep. Those who are not is Christ are in Hades, where they are also very much alive.
    According to Scripture all the dead are in the sheol or hades, not in heaven. If Christians would go straight to heaven then who needs a resurrection? This misconception is a remnant of the lie Satan told Eve:

    Gen 3:4 « And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: »

    Scripture teaches us differently:

    Gen 3:19 « In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. »

    Job teaches the same, many are rejoice when they find the grave 3:22, one goes down to the grave and and come up no more 7:9. He wished he was carried straight from the womb to the grave, 10:19, the grave shall be his home 17:13.

    Also the Psalms:

    Psa. 6:6 « For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks? »

    Psa 49:14 « Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling. »

    They need to be resurrected:

    Psa 49:15 « But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah. »

    Psa 89:48 « What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah. »

    Dan. 12:2 « And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. »

    Then we have what the Lord Himself said:

    John 5:28, 29 « Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. »

    Martha knew this:

    John 11:24 « Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. »

    Teaching believers go straight to heaven is just as false a doctrine as is the doctrine of soul sleep which BTW, is what Plato believed.

    As to the capabilities of the immortal body, it will be similar to that of angels.
    Like I wrote in another thread, the resurrected believers will be equal to the angels, not similar:

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    The Greek uses the word « isaggelos » which is a combination of « isos » and « aggelos ». « isos » is always used for something that is equal, exactly the same as we see in:

    Php 2:6 « who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal (isos) to God, »

    When the Greek wants to point out similarity, it uses a form of the word « homoios » as we see in:

    Php 2:7 « But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness (homoioma) of men: »

    So those who will be in the resurrection will be exactly the same as the angels are now.

    [...]
    Aristarkos

  2. #17

    Re: Scriptural capabilities of the Immortal Body to come...

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    According to Scripture all the dead are in the sheol or hades, not in heaven.
    No. According to Scripture all the saints who have died are in the New Jerusalem. You will find that in Hebrews chapter 12. As to "who needs a resurrection" only the souls and spirits of the saints are in Heaven with Christ. They will receive glorious and glorified bodies at the Resurrection/Rapture. Therefore they all need the resurrection.

    Before the resurrection of Christ both the saved and the unsaved went to Sheol/Hades but were separated from each other. After the resurrection of Christ, all the OT saints were taken to Heaven.

  3. #18

    Re: Scriptural capabilities of the Immortal Body to come...

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    But the idea that Christian people go immediately to live in heaven at their death, contradicts scripture about the Judgement. Surely Judgement must come first?
    The judgment of the saints was executed at the Cross on the Lamb of God. However, the Judgment Seat of Christ is to judge the works of the saints, not their fitness for Heaven. So it is only after all the saints are in Heaven that they all will stand at the Judgment Seat of Christ and give account.

  4. #19
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    Re: Scriptural capabilities of the Immortal Body to come...

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel567 View Post
    No. According to Scripture all the saints who have died are in the New Jerusalem. You will find that in Hebrews chapter 12. As to "who needs a resurrection" only the souls and spirits of the saints are in Heaven with Christ. They will receive glorious and glorified bodies at the Resurrection/Rapture. Therefore they all need the resurrection.

    Before the resurrection of Christ both the saved and the unsaved went to Sheol/Hades but were separated from each other. After the resurrection of Christ, all the OT saints were taken to Heaven.
    It would be very interesting if you could supply the Scripture. You've just dismissed what God teaches us about death for a human doctrine. There is not one single Scripture that supports what you believe. If there is, show them.

    Aristarkos

  5. #20

    Re: Scriptural capabilities of the Immortal Body to come...

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Daniel 567; I have changed my post, as soul sleep is not actually the correct way to describe what happens after death. For the dead person, it will be in the next instant that they face the GWT Judgement.

    But the idea that Christian people go immediately to live in heaven at their death, contradicts scripture about the Judgement. Surely Judgement must come first?
    These are one of those difficult-to-answer questions. Where are we, the saints, after death and before the judgment? For that matter, where are the angels? Where are the demons?

    We are reduced to a universe of vision, and there are entities out there, including God, who we cannot see in our realm. I'd been interested to know more about this, though I fear it is something I cannot access...at least not yet.

  6. #21
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    Re: Scriptural capabilities of the Immortal Body to come...

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    These are one of those difficult-to-answer questions. Where are we, the saints, after death and before the judgment? For that matter, where are the angels? Where are the demons?

    We are reduced to a universe of vision, and there are entities out there, including God, who we cannot see in our realm. I'd been interested to know more about this, though I fear it is something I cannot access...at least not yet.
    the Book of Job has a lot of information about God and how He works with mankind. Job 14:10-15, as I posted in #13, states plain facts about death and judgement. These facts are confirmed elsewhere in the Bible as Aristarkos posted in #16.
    The problem arises when we listen to teachers who promote false and impossible ideas such as going directly to heaven at death. [Like monopoly; go straight to Go and collect $200]
    There is a lot we cannot know, but at least try not to be fooled by theories that have no Biblical support.

  7. #22
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    Re: Scriptural capabilities of the Immortal Body to come...

    Consciousness after death?
    Psalm 146:4 says thoughts perish at death. This cannot refer to a body without the soul, since a physical body alone does not have thoughts. Only the soul has thoughts, and they cease at death….
    Many other passages [such as Psalms 6:5 and Psalms 30:9] support unconsciousness after death and do not make sense if only talking about the body….
    This same message of an end of consciousness was evident when Adam sinned. God plainly told him he would return to dust, Genesis 3:19. Adam was not conscious before creation, and God made it clear he would return to that unconscious state. Thoughts occur in the brain, which stops functioning and starts decomposing at death. Thoughts perish at death, just as the Bible says in many different ways.

    Solomon also supports soul unawareness:
    But for him who is joined to all the living there is hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing; And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred and their envy have now perished; Nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the sun . . . Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going. Ecclesiastes 9:5-6,10

    These scriptures prove there is no conscious being for people after death.
    The only people who will be brought back to life, will be those martyrs killed for their faith during the 42 month period of Satan’s control of the earth. Revelation 13:5-8 Plus the two Witnesses.
    The parables about Abraham and Lazarus the beggar, are just homilies and every dead persons soul returns to its Maker, where it awaits the Great White Throne Judgement, at the end of time. Revelation 20:11-15, Daniel 7:9-10

  8. #23

    Re: Scriptural capabilities of the Immortal Body to come...

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    These are one of those difficult-to-answer questions. Where are we, the saints, after death and before the judgment? For that matter, where are the angels? Where are the demons?
    We are not left to guess about these issues. Christians are -- from God's perspective -- "seated in the heavenlies with Christ Jesus".

    That is why we are told in Hebrews 12:22-24 that we have "come" (arrived at) to the heavenly city New Jerusalem (called "Mount Zion" by the Holy Spirit), and here is what we see in Heaven (within the New Jerusalem):

    22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and [1] to an innumerable company of angels,

    23
    [2] To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and [3] to God the Judge of all, and [4] to the spirits of just men made perfect,

    24 And
    [5] to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and [6] to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


    So we find SIX CRITICAL THINGS/PERSONS/GROUPS listed here:

    1. The holy angels are present in Heaven.

    2. The Church is present in Heaven (the souls and spirits of the departed saints)

    3. God Himself is in Heaven.

    4. The Old Testament saints ("just men" or "justified men") are in Heaven.

    5. Jesus Himself is in Heaven.

    6. The Mercy Seat sprinkled with the blood of Christ is in Heaven.

    In view of this, for any Christian to insist that the souls and spirits of believers do NOT go directly to Heaven when they die is to promote heresy and also to resist the Word of God.

    As to demons, they roam this earth.

  9. #24
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    Re: Scriptural capabilities of the Immortal Body to come...

    There's no promise in the Bible, however, that we'll all be able to sing well when we get to heaven!

  10. #25
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    Re: Scriptural capabilities of the Immortal Body to come...

    Daniel 567, Your quote of Hebrews 12:22-24, does not prove that we Christians go to heaven when we die.
    The chapter is all about how Christians are no longer under the Sinai Covenant, but members of the New Covenant in Jesus, with our names enrolled in heaven. It is written in the present tense, our situation now, as born again believers.
    It is NOT a description of anything to happen later, as you say: just from God's perspective. We actually remain on earth, the place we were made to live in.

  11. #26

    Re: Scriptural capabilities of the Immortal Body to come...

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    There's no promise in the Bible, however, that we'll all be able to sing well when we get to heaven!
    It may not be worded exactly like that, but the FACT that we shall be perfected and glorified indicates that our singing will be beyond excellent.

  12. #27

    Re: Scriptural capabilities of the Immortal Body to come...

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Daniel 567, Your quote of Hebrews 12:22-24, does not prove that we Christians go to heaven when we die.
    Yes it certainly does. What else is "the general assembly and Church of the firstborn" other than the whole assembly of born-again believers who are the Body of Christ, also known as "the Church", and now in Heaven? You should not allow your preconceived notions to determine the truth.

    The chapter is all about how Christians are no longer under the Sinai Covenant, but members of the New Covenant in Jesus, with our names enrolled in heaven. It is written in the present tense, our situation now, as born again believers.
    And as born-again believers we are all in that same Body called "the general assembly and Church of the firstborn". So whether we are alive on earth or alive in Heaven, we are the Lord's and are not "asleep" in the grave. That was a metaphor for OT saints, but since they are also now in Heaven as "the spirits of just men made perfect", there is no saint in Sheol/Hades, and certainly not sleeping in graves.

    It is NOT a description of anything to happen later, as you say: just from God's perspective. We actually remain on earth, the place we were made to live in.
    What will happen later is the Resurrection/Rapture. When this occurs the souls and spirits of those who are with Christ in Heaven will be reunited with their immortal glorified bodies and return to Heaven, while those who are alive at that point will be transformed and then translated. Just as Enoch was translated/raptured and did not see death, these saints will never experience physical death.

    As to "remaining on earth", kindly study the meaning of the New Jerusalem as well as the meaning of John 14:1-3. The New Jerusalem is the ETERNAL HOME OF THE SAINTS WITHIN THE CHURCH. The earth is reserved for redeemed and restored Israel, as well as the nations that are saved.

    The dimensions of the New Jerusalem indicate that it is a cube which is the size of a continent -- meaning it has more than enough room for all the saints who have ever existed. But it is also the eternal dwelling place of God of of the Lamb, surrounded by the saints and angels.

  13. #28
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    Re: Scriptural capabilities of the Immortal Body to come...

    Sorry Daniel567, we are just too far apart in our beliefs to discuss these issues. You assume rather much in order to fit your beliefs.
    As events unfold, we will all know the real truth of God's plans for His people.

  14. #29
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    Re: Scriptural capabilities of the Immortal Body to come...

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel567 View Post

    [...]

    So we find SIX CRITICAL THINGS/PERSONS/GROUPS listed here:

    1. The holy angels are present in Heaven.

    2. The Church is present in Heaven (the souls and spirits of the departed saints)

    3. God Himself is in Heaven.

    4. The Old Testament saints ("just men" or "justified men") are in Heaven.

    5. Jesus Himself is in Heaven.

    6. The Mercy Seat sprinkled with the blood of Christ is in Heaven.

    In view of this, for any Christian to insist that the souls and spirits of believers do NOT go directly to Heaven when they die is to promote heresy and also to resist the Word of God.

    As to demons, they roam this earth.
    You should not use those heavy words like heresy, for those who disagree with your doctrine. I'll address your points with the same numbering.

    1. True, there are angels in heaven without a doubt.

    2. Which church would that be and which heaven? Scripture is quite specific about who and where and you are generalising.

    3. Obvious

    4. No they are not as Paul says in Hebrews:

    Heb 11:13 « These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. »

    And Acts:

    Acts 2:29 « Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

    5. Obvious

    6. Could you quote a Scripture on that?

    Aristarkos

  15. #30

    Re: Scriptural capabilities of the Immortal Body to come...

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    According to Scripture all the dead are in the sheol or hades, not in heaven. If Christians would go straight to heaven then who needs a resurrection? This misconception is a remnant of the lie Satan told Eve:

    Gen 3:4 « And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: »

    Scripture teaches us differently:

    Gen 3:19 « In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. »

    Job teaches the same, many are rejoice when they find the grave 3:22, one goes down to the grave and and come up no more 7:9. He wished he was carried straight from the womb to the grave, 10:19, the grave shall be his home 17:13.

    Also the Psalms:

    Psa. 6:6 « For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks? »

    Psa 49:14 « Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling. »

    They need to be resurrected:

    Psa 49:15 « But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah. »

    Psa 89:48 « What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah. »

    Dan. 12:2 « And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. »

    Then we have what the Lord Himself said:

    John 5:28, 29 « Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. »

    Martha knew this:

    John 11:24 « Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. »

    Teaching believers go straight to heaven is just as false a doctrine as is the doctrine of soul sleep which BTW, is what Plato believed.

    Like I wrote in another thread, the resurrected believers will be equal to the angels, not similar:

    Aristarkos
    I think that when the Scriptures speak of the body falling "asleep" that they are merely depicting the physical appearance of men and women dying. They appear to "fall asleep."

    That says nothing to what the human experience is in death spiritually. Since men and women are *spiritual beings,* their bodies die but their spirits remain alive, ie they do not cease to exist.

    As far as consciousness goes, I think the Scriptures are pretty clear that the Christian who dies immediately comes to be in the presence of the Lord. Since Paul was excited about that my assumption is that he meant we will be *conscious* in the presence of the Lord.

    Terms like "Hades" or the "Grave" simply depict the place human spirits go when separated from the body. Paul talked about our need to be "clothed" with a new body after death. And so, the spirits of men and women can truly be separated from our bodies. When we die our spirits truly are separated from our bodies.

    If so, then going to the "Grave" or "Hades" simply means our spirits are separated from our bodies. We are not physically asleep, as when we are still alive in our bodies and lose consciousness. Rather, it is different when our bodies die and our spirits are separated from our bodies.

    At this point I do think we remain conscious. Jesus said that those who believe in him "will never die." Since our bodies truly die I can only think that Jesus was talking about the fact our spirits will never lose consciousness following bodily death. That is, we will lose neither our new spiritual nature, nor our consciousness of God's connection with us.

    There will be a time for believers between the time our spirits are separated from our bodies and the time when we receive new immortal bodies. We may say we "go to heaven." But what most people mean by that is that we simply go to be with God. It says nothing about receiving our new bodies.

    So when we die we do go to heaven, or to God. And we wait until we receive new bodies. Our spirits will not lose consciousness after we are separated from our bodies, as physical bodies do while they are still alive and asleep. We will go directly into the presence of the Lord for safe-keeping until the time when we are to receive our new immortal bodies.

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