Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 39

Thread: Jesus in the Old Testament

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    3,173

    Re: Jesus in the Old Testament

    Quote Originally Posted by bluto View Post
    Ok let me explain it to you tony. You op says "Jesus in the Old Testament." I'm just saying that He physcially appeared in the Old Testament not only in Genesis but in other books. I also said His first appearance is at Genesis 16 at verse seven.? You then posted that He appeared at Genesis 1:2. How did you arrive at that conclusion? My Bible says the Spirit of God moved over the surface of the waters. Jesus is not the person of the Holy Spirit.

    IN GOD THE SON,
    james
    Okay, brother. Sorry I didn't understand. I guess I didn't see the thread title from that perspective of physically appearing, but you are right. Jesus has appeared many times in the OT. With Moses on Mount Sinai is one. Remember, no one can see God, the Father, without dying. Moses spoke to God face to face at one point. That had to be Jesus. Another was when the three angels came to Abraham before Sodom was destroyed. Only two went out to rescue Lot. The third was probably Jesus.

    You are right, Jesus is not the HS. Sorry, I meant to say third verse. Oops! Let me explain what I mean in Genesis 1:3.

    3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.

    Okay, now Genesis 1 says the sun, moon, and stars were created on the 4th day. Yet, on day one we have light. What was it? That light is when Jesus was brought forth. Here are some of the scriptures to prove that.

    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.

    Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

    It is clear. Jesus was there at the very beginning of creation. ALL things on earth and in heaven were created by Him. What did Jesus say?

    John 8:12 Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.”

    John 9:5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

    It isn't hard to figure out that "Let there be Light" is when Jesus was brought forth. I can show this in the OT as well. I'm not sure if you know, but the oldest written text about Jesus is called the Q. It contains Jesus' sayings and parables. Some believe the gospels were derived from the Q. Anyhow, one saying of Jesus is "I am wisdom in the flesh." Now, check out Proverbs 8. (Notice how wisdom speaks in the 1st person.)

    8:12 “I, wisdom, dwell with prudence, And find out knowledge and discretion. 13 The fear of the Lord is to hate evil; Pride and arrogance and the evil way And the perverse mouth I hate. 14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom; I am understanding, I have strength. 15 By me kings reign, And rulers decree justice. 16 By me princes rule, and nobles, All the judges of the earth. 17 I love those who love me, And those who seek me diligently will find me. 18 Riches and honor are with me, Enduring riches and righteousness. 19 My fruit is better than gold, yes, than fine gold, And my revenue than choice silver. 20 I traverse the way of righteousness, In the midst of the paths of justice, 21 That I may cause those who love me to inherit wealth, That I may fill their treasuries. 22 “The Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old. 23 I have been established from everlasting, From the beginning, before there was ever an earth. 24 When there were no depths I was brought forth, When there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills, I was brought forth; 26 While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields, Or the primal dust of the world. 27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there, When He drew a circle on the face of the deep, 28 When He established the clouds above, When He strengthened the fountains of the deep, 29 When He assigned to the sea its limit, So that the waters would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth, 30 Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him, 31 Rejoicing in His inhabited world, And my delight was with the sons of men. 32 “Now therefore, listen to me, my children, For blessed are those who keep my ways. 33 Hear instruction and be wise, And do not disdain it. 34 Blessed is the man who listens to me, Watching daily at my gates, Waiting at the posts of my doors. 35 For whoever finds me finds life, And obtains favor from the Lord; 36 But he who sins against me wrongs his own soul; All those who hate me love death.”

    I know that was long, but it is well worth the study. Proverbs, Paul, and John all agree that all things were made through Jesus and the Jesus was brought forth AT the beginning of creation. Proverbs even states Jesus was there prior to the primal dust cloud.

    Now, once you get the fact that Jesus is the Light in Genesis 1:3, the next two verses begin to speak volumes about the division of Light and darkness in the world. God's word can get real deep in meaning!

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    3,173

    Re: Jesus in the Old Testament

    Quote Originally Posted by bluto View Post
    Your exactly right! Now, please look at Genesis 16 starting at vs7, "Now the angel of the Lord found her by a spring of water in the wilderness, by the spring on the way to Shur. (To shorten this I will go to vs10). Moreover the angel of the Lord said to her/Hagar, "I will greatly multiply your descendants so that they whall be too many to count."

    At vs13, "Then she/Hagar called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, "Thou aret a God who sees; for she said, Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him." Now go to Genesis 17:1,2. "Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty; Walk before Me, and be blameless, vs2, And I will establish My covenant between Me and you, And I will multiply your exceedingly."

    Here is my question? Is the Lord God Almighty who appeared to Abram at Genesis 17:1,2 the same being as the angel of the Lord at Genesis 16?

    IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
    bluto
    You have a huge point. Check this out.

    Genesis 16:10 Then the Angel of the Lord said to her, “I will multiply your descendants exceedingly, so that they shall not be counted for multitude.”

    Angels don't create life or multiply anything. Only God can do that. You nailed it. That was Jesus talking to Hagar.

    As to Genesis 17:1-2, absolutely! That was Jesus.

    John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

    Jesus is the only possibility in Genesis 17. Good find! What a cool job Jesus has had to be intimately involved throughout all of history.

  3. #18

    Re: Jesus in the Old Testament

    Very good tony, your exactly correct. Now, let me play "devil's advocate" here and say to you that it cannot be Jesus as the angel of the Lord because Jesus never preexisted His incarnation. Secondly, angels deliever messages. In fact the Hebrew word for angel is "malak" and that word simply means messenger. The angel is talking on behalf of God so the angel cannot be God Himself, that's why he's only a messengers. Now what are you going to do or say tony?

    IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
    james

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    2,360
    Blog Entries
    24

    Re: Jesus in the Old Testament

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    Okay, brother. Sorry I didn't understand. I guess I didn't see the thread title from that perspective of physically appearing, but you are right. Jesus has appeared many times in the OT. With Moses on Mount Sinai is one. Remember, no one can see God, the Father, without dying. Moses spoke to God face to face at one point. That had to be Jesus. Another was when the three angels came to Abraham before Sodom was destroyed. Only two went out to rescue Lot. The third was probably Jesus.

    You are right, Jesus is not the HS. Sorry, I meant to say third verse. Oops! Let me explain what I mean in Genesis 1:3.

    3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.

    Okay, now Genesis 1 says the sun, moon, and stars were created on the 4th day. Yet, on day one we have light. What was it? That light is when Jesus was brought forth. Here are some of the scriptures to prove that.

    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.

    Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

    It is clear. Jesus was there at the very beginning of creation. ALL things on earth and in heaven were created by Him. What did Jesus say?

    John 8:12 Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.”

    John 9:5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

    It isn't hard to figure out that "Let there be Light" is when Jesus was brought forth. I can show this in the OT as well. I'm not sure if you know, but the oldest written text about Jesus is called the Q. It contains Jesus' sayings and parables. Some believe the gospels were derived from the Q. Anyhow, one saying of Jesus is "I am wisdom in the flesh." Now, check out Proverbs 8. (Notice how wisdom speaks in the 1st person.)

    8:12 “I, wisdom, dwell with prudence, And find out knowledge and discretion. 13 The fear of the Lord is to hate evil; Pride and arrogance and the evil way And the perverse mouth I hate. 14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom; I am understanding, I have strength. 15 By me kings reign, And rulers decree justice. 16 By me princes rule, and nobles, All the judges of the earth. 17 I love those who love me, And those who seek me diligently will find me. 18 Riches and honor are with me, Enduring riches and righteousness. 19 My fruit is better than gold, yes, than fine gold, And my revenue than choice silver. 20 I traverse the way of righteousness, In the midst of the paths of justice, 21 That I may cause those who love me to inherit wealth, That I may fill their treasuries. 22 “The Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old. 23 I have been established from everlasting, From the beginning, before there was ever an earth. 24 When there were no depths I was brought forth, When there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills, I was brought forth; 26 While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields, Or the primal dust of the world. 27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there, When He drew a circle on the face of the deep, 28 When He established the clouds above, When He strengthened the fountains of the deep, 29 When He assigned to the sea its limit, So that the waters would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth, 30 Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him, 31 Rejoicing in His inhabited world, And my delight was with the sons of men. 32 “Now therefore, listen to me, my children, For blessed are those who keep my ways. 33 Hear instruction and be wise, And do not disdain it. 34 Blessed is the man who listens to me, Watching daily at my gates, Waiting at the posts of my doors. 35 For whoever finds me finds life, And obtains favor from the Lord; 36 But he who sins against me wrongs his own soul; All those who hate me love death.”

    I know that was long, but it is well worth the study. Proverbs, Paul, and John all agree that all things were made through Jesus and the Jesus was brought forth AT the beginning of creation. Proverbs even states Jesus was there prior to the primal dust cloud.

    Now, once you get the fact that Jesus is the Light in Genesis 1:3, the next two verses begin to speak volumes about the division of Light and darkness in the world. God's word can get real deep in meaning!


    Amazing Tony. I did not see this until now! Thank you!
    “Dispensationalism has thrown down the gauntlet: and it is high time that Covenant theologians take up the challenge and respond Biblically.” – Dr. Robert L. Reymond, author, A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith






    True Truth Exists, & Can Be Found

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    2,360
    Blog Entries
    24

    Re: Jesus in the Old Testament

    Quote Originally Posted by bluto View Post
    Now what are you going to do or say tony?

    IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
    james

    What Kind of talk is this?

    btw James, what does "in the angel of the lord" mean? Just curious.

    Peace.
    “Dispensationalism has thrown down the gauntlet: and it is high time that Covenant theologians take up the challenge and respond Biblically.” – Dr. Robert L. Reymond, author, A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith






    True Truth Exists, & Can Be Found

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    2,360
    Blog Entries
    24

    Re: Jesus in the Old Testament

    Jesus is also the ark. If your in him your saved. At rest.
    “Dispensationalism has thrown down the gauntlet: and it is high time that Covenant theologians take up the challenge and respond Biblically.” – Dr. Robert L. Reymond, author, A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith






    True Truth Exists, & Can Be Found

  7. #22

    Re: Jesus in the Old Testament

    Someone needs to define " Jesus brought forth."

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    2,360
    Blog Entries
    24

    Re: Jesus in the Old Testament

    Quote Originally Posted by bluto View Post

    Here is my question? Is the Lord God Almighty who appeared to Abram at Genesis 17:1,2 the same being as the angel of the Lord at Genesis 16?

    IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,

    Yes I think it is. What's your point?
    “Dispensationalism has thrown down the gauntlet: and it is high time that Covenant theologians take up the challenge and respond Biblically.” – Dr. Robert L. Reymond, author, A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith






    True Truth Exists, & Can Be Found

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    3,173

    Re: Jesus in the Old Testament

    Quote Originally Posted by bluto View Post
    Very good tony, your exactly correct. Now, let me play "devil's advocate" here and say to you that it cannot be Jesus as the angel of the Lord because Jesus never preexisted His incarnation. Secondly, angels deliever messages. In fact the Hebrew word for angel is "malak" and that word simply means messenger. The angel is talking on behalf of God so the angel cannot be God Himself, that's why he's only a messengers. Now what are you going to do or say tony?

    IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
    james
    Okay, you make two massive assumptions here, although I am not 100% sure I understand your question.
    One, that Jesus never preexisted His incarnation. What??? He is from everlasting. He is eternal. Even the OT makes that clear. Where are you getting Jesus being created new 2000 years ago?
    Two, yes, angels are messengers. It is certainly possible that Hagar was talking to an angel, and not Jesus. However, in Genesis 17, the Lord appears and says, "I am Almighty God." That isn't an angel. If Jesus came once, He could have come many times. How does that fit with the "never preexisted" argument?

  10. #25
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    3,173

    Re: Jesus in the Old Testament

    Quote Originally Posted by bluesky22 View Post
    Amazing Tony. I did not see this until now! Thank you!
    Your welcome. It was an eye opener for me as well.

  11. #26
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    3,173

    Re: Jesus in the Old Testament

    Quote Originally Posted by Stew Ward's Hip View Post
    Someone needs to define " Jesus brought forth."
    I would say "introduced." I certainly am not implying that Jesus was created.

    In the Hebrew, "Let there be Light" is two words. Light is one word. "Let there be" is one word. That word is translated many different ways in scripture. Become, Let there be, you have, you shall have. The Hebrew root word means "come" or "come to pass" so it is clearly an introduction word, rather than one indicating creation. "Come Jesus" could work just as well.

  12. #27

    Re: Jesus in the Old Testament

    Come on tony, read what I wrote? I said very clearly, "let me play "devil's advocate." In other words I am asking questions from the point of view of the people that "DO NOT" believe Jesus Christ preexisted His incarnation. Now, reagarding your statement that it is possible that Hagar was talking to an angel, and not Jesus" is totally unfounded. It had to be Jesus Christ and not an angel like Michael or Garbriel.

    The Hebrew word for angel/messenger is "malak." It can mean an angel or it can mean a messenger, it all depends on the context. For example, Malachi 3:1, "Behold, I am going to send My angel/messenger, and he will clear the way before Me, and the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the angel/messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight , behold, He is coming, says the Lord of hosts." Who was the person that cleared the way of the Lord Jesus Christ?

    The messenger is none other than John the Baptist, who btw is a man and not an angel, (except to his mother maybe). Please read Mark 1:1-4. Now, like I said it has to be Jesus Christ and not an angel because there are certain things angels cannot do. At Genesis 16 the angel of the Lord says He will multiply hagar's descendants at vs10. At vs13 Hagar says, Thou are a God who sees; for she said Have I remained alive here after seeing Him/God.

    Look at Genesis 17 where the angel of the Lord appears to Abraham and identifies Himself as God Almighty. That is vs1. Vs2, And I will establish My covenant betwen Me and you, And I will multiply your exceedingly." This is absolutly a physcial appearance of God because vs 22 says, "And when He/God finished talking with him/Abraham, GOD WENT UP FROM ABRAHAM." In other words God ascended upward/north.

    And what about this "covenant" business? Also along with this please keep in mind I said there are certain things angels cannot do. Hebrews 6:13,14, "For when God made the promise to Abraham, since He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself, vs14, saying, I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply you." So where in the Old Testament did this happen?

    It happend at Genesis 22. I will just highlight the verses but it is when Abraham is going to sacrifice his son Isaac. At vs10 Abraham stretches out his hand to slay his son. Now watch this. Vs11, "But the angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, Abraham, Ab raham!" And he said, Here I am." Vs12, And he said, Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, sinc eyou have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me." Look now at vs15, "The the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heven, vs16, and said, BY MYSELF I HAVE SWORN, DELCARES THE LORD, BECAUSE (or why) you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son, Vs17, indeed I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is on the seashort; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies."

    Angels cannot swear oaths on behalf of God Almighty. This is why the angel of the Lord is the preincarnate Jesus Christ. I will stop for now and if you (or anybody else for that matter) have any questions whatsoever I will be happy to address them.

    IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
    bluto

  13. #28

    Re: Jesus in the Old Testament

    Bumped for tony or anyone else.

  14. #29
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    3,173

    Re: Jesus in the Old Testament

    Quote Originally Posted by bluto View Post
    Come on tony, read what I wrote? I said very clearly, "let me play "devil's advocate." In other words I am asking questions from the point of view of the people that "DO NOT" believe Jesus Christ preexisted His incarnation.
    Ah, yes, I missed that part. I guess I just reacted to accusation about Jesus.

    Now, reagarding your statement that it is possible that Hagar was talking to an angel, and not Jesus" is totally unfounded. It had to be Jesus Christ and not an angel like Michael or Garbriel.
    Tell me why. Can an angel not give the same message? There was no oath, just a message. Now, the part about "I will multiply your descendants" does give a definite argument for Jesus. Why would it be impossible for and angel to give that message?

    The Hebrew word for angel/messenger is "malak." It can mean an angel or it can mean a messenger, it all depends on the context. For example, Malachi 3:1, "Behold, I am going to send My angel/messenger, and he will clear the way before Me, and the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the angel/messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight , behold, He is coming, says the Lord of hosts." Who was the person that cleared the way of the Lord Jesus Christ?

    The messenger is none other than John the Baptist, who btw is a man and not an angel, (except to his mother maybe). Please read Mark 1:1-4. Now, like I said it has to be Jesus Christ and not an angel because there are certain things angels cannot do. At Genesis 16 the angel of the Lord says He will multiply hagar's descendants at vs10. At vs13 Hagar says, Thou are a God who sees; for she said Have I remained alive here after seeing Him/God.

    Look at Genesis 17 where the angel of the Lord appears to Abraham and identifies Himself as God Almighty. That is vs1. Vs2, And I will establish My covenant betwen Me and you, And I will multiply your exceedingly." This is absolutly a physcial appearance of God because vs 22 says, "And when He/God finished talking with him/Abraham, GOD WENT UP FROM ABRAHAM." In other words God ascended upward/north.

    And what about this "covenant" business? Also along with this please keep in mind I said there are certain things angels cannot do. Hebrews 6:13,14, "For when God made the promise to Abraham, since He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself, vs14, saying, I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply you." So where in the Old Testament did this happen?

    It happend at Genesis 22. I will just highlight the verses but it is when Abraham is going to sacrifice his son Isaac. At vs10 Abraham stretches out his hand to slay his son. Now watch this. Vs11, "But the angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, Abraham, Ab raham!" And he said, Here I am." Vs12, And he said, Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, sinc eyou have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me." Look now at vs15, "The the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heven, vs16, and said, BY MYSELF I HAVE SWORN, DELCARES THE LORD, BECAUSE (or why) you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son, Vs17, indeed I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is on the seashort; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies."

    Angels cannot swear oaths on behalf of God Almighty. This is why the angel of the Lord is the preincarnate Jesus Christ. I will stop for now and if you (or anybody else for that matter) have any questions whatsoever I will be happy to address them.
    I agree with everything here, but let me play "devil's advocate" now. This whole theory rests upon this statement. "Angels cannot swear oaths on behalf of God Almighty." How can you be certain of this?

  15. #30
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    3,173

    Re: Jesus in the Old Testament

    Now that we have a basic understanding of the origins of the name Yeshua (Jesus), we can begin to explore Old Testament scripture with added light. This may be hard to accept at first. It was difficult for me also. The more I researched word origins and meanings, the more it made sense. The second example will help remove doubt. The Hebrew words I use below are the root words. The actual Hebrew text may include a suffix to indicate that a pronoun is added to the root word, such as My, Your, or His, but the meaning of the root word is the same. In English, pronouns are separate words, but in Hebrew they are part of the root word. No need to get complicated here. Remember the name Jesus evolved from Yeshua.

    Isaiah 56:1 “...Keep justice, and do righteousness, for My Salvation is about to come...”

    The Hebrew word here for Salvation is Yeshuah. This particular spelling was used often around 1000-700 BC. This the exact same root meaning as Yeshua (Jesus). Therefore it would be completely correct to translate the verse this way:

    “Keep justice, and do righteousness, for My Yeshua (Jesus) is about to come.”

    I can see you rolling your eyes. I did the same thing. I thought, “Am I so deliriously tired that I am dreaming while reading?” You say, “Taking a word and inserting a name in its place is a huge stretch even if the word and name have the same spelling.” Yes, you are right, this is ridiculous. But here is the twist. The word and the name not only have the same spelling, they have the same meaning also. Remember there are no lower case letters in Hebrew. So, is it a word or a name? Is it Jesus or Salvation? Let's look at another example.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 5
    Last Post: Jan 27th 2016, 10:20 PM
  2. Replies: 12
    Last Post: Aug 16th 2013, 01:15 AM
  3. Discovering Jesus in the Old Testament
    By Mr King in forum Growing in Christ
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: Aug 26th 2012, 10:01 PM
  4. Bespreking Jesus in die Ou Testament
    By Johnny in forum Vrae en menings oor die Bybel
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: Mar 12th 2010, 10:46 AM
  5. Replies: 0
    Last Post: Apr 11th 2009, 01:50 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •