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Thread: Jesus in the Old Testament

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    Jesus in the Old Testament

    I want to start a thread here to share some of the things I learned on a quest for truth. There will be many posts, so this is just the introduction. This thread should be about how Jesus is explained in the Old Testament. I don't intend this thread to be about Jesus "type" figures in the OT, such as Joseph, etc. If anyone wants to share these things I have no problem with that. I want to focus on whether Jesus is truly the Son of God and the Jewish Messiah and get into the details of how Jesus is hidden in plain sight throughout the OT. We will first have to establish a few basics of Hebrew. Don't worry, this isn't going to be hard work. I believe there will be some things shown here that will cause your faith to swell, as they did mine.

    One day I was thinking about how most people's beliefs are based on how they were raised. A person raised in a muslim home in Baghdad is most likely to be muslim. The same is true for beliefs all over the world. The same is also true for Christians. Not everyone is right however. I then thought that maybe it would be wise for me to investigate the truth of what I believe rather than just accept it. I didn't have a crisis of faith, but rather I wanted to step back and take an objective look at scripture to see if what I knew was right or not. (First, I put the scripture to the test by verifying prophecies that were fulfilled after they were written. Most here already believe in scripture so I wont go over all that.)

    If we take a step back and take an objective look at Jesus, will He stand up to a few questions about Him? Here is the kicker. If we are being objective, we cannot use the New Testament. The OT was written first and the Messianic prophecies are rather well known. If Jesus was a fake, it would have been very easy to craft a story about Him and "create" the NT. That may sound harsh, but if we are to truly be objective, we must consider everything written after Him to be less reliable than that which was written before Him. Does believing in Jesus require true blind faith, or is there evidence on which a reasonable person can make an informed decision? (Since this is a Christian site, don't worry, this has a happy ending. I just need to be objective to start.)

    I'm sure God anticipated skeptics and gave us ample reason to believe in His Son, if indeed He has a Son. If Jesus truly is the Son of God and God foretells the future, there must be ample prophetic writings in advance about Him. Here are the questions I wrote down prior to my quest. If these questions can be answered in the OT alone, then Jesus is the truth.


    1. Does God even have a son?
    2. What is His name?
    3. Where will He be sent?
    4. When will He come into the world?
    5. Why will He be sent into the world?
    6. If he was Jesus, why did He die?


    If all these things can plainly found in the Tanakh/Old Testament, could their really be any doubt about his authenticity? This might seem like a ridiculous amount of proof required in order to believe, but this isn't a small matter. I can think of no other topic of higher importance in all of creation. Those of us that have spent most of our lives navigating through a sea of lies, have also learned not to trust anything or anyone. Do we deserve the lake of fire for this? A compassionate and merciful God would give enough evidence for all who truly seek him to believe. Even the severely skeptical.

    Large statements have been made. A tall challenge has been issued. Can the Bible stand up under the pressure? We shall soon see.

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    Re: Jesus in the Old Testament

    Well, does God even have a son?

    That is the first question that comes to mind. If not, then we are all in trouble. If so, that doesn't automatically mean that Jesus is God's Son. But, the door remains open at least. Here we go.

    1. Psalms 2:6-7 “Yet I have set My King on My holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: The Lord has said to Me, You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.”

    King David writes about the Kingdom of the promised Messiah. This clearly states that the Messiah, who will rule the world from Zion, will be God's son and his kingdom will be begotten on the day he comes.

    2. Psalms 2:11-12 “Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, and you perish in the way, when His wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him.”

    Again the Messiah is God's son. We are instructed to serve the Lord, who is the Son of God. The Son is called Lord here by King David, so we can be certain, the Son, isn't a man. We are blessed when we put our trust in Him. If you have put your trust in his Son, God Almighty has called you blessed. Want to be blessed by God? Trust in his Son. It isn't complicated.

    3. Ezekiel 21:9-10 “Son of man, prophesy and say, 'Thus says the Lord!' Say: 'A sword, a sword is sharpened and also polished! Sharpened to make a dreadful slaughter, polished to flash like lightning! Should we then make mirth? It despises the scepter of MY Son.”

    Prophecy about the wickedness of Israel in the last days. (The editor of your Bible may show this section under a heading of Babylon, sword of God. Ezekiel was already a captive in Babylon at this time, so it would've been quite late to be useful in the 6th century. There are multiple clues in this section that indicate this is an end times prophecy.) Ezekiel is directly quoting God here and God clearly says he has a son. “Thus says the Lord.....It despises the scepter of MY SON.”

    4. Proverbs 30:4 “Who has ascended into heaven, or descended?
    Who has gathered the wind in His fists?
    Who has bound the waters in a garment?
    Who has established all the ends of the earth?
    What is His name, and what is His Son's name, if you know?”

    Wisdom of Agur. Who has ascended into heaven or descended? What is his name, and what is his son's name? Apparently God has a son. How else can we read this? God challenges us to find out his son's name. This isn't cryptic. It is as plain as it can be. Does God give us His name? We will see.

    5. I Chronicles 17:11-14 “And it shall be, when your days are fulfilled, when you must go to be with your fathers, that I will set up your seed after you, who will be of your sons; and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build Me a house, and I will establish His throne forever. I will be His Father, and He shall be My Son; and I will not take My mercy away from Him, as I took it from him who was before you. And I will establish Him in My house and in My kingdom forever; and His throne shall be established forever.”

    This the prophet Nathan speaking the words of God to King David. Solomon was David's son, and he built the first Jewish Temple so, on the surface, this seems to have fulfilled through Solomon. Several questions quickly arise, however. Was Solomon ever called the Son of God? No. Did Solomon live to rule forever? No. Was Solomon's throne established forever? No.

    In ancient Judaism a son could be ones son, grandson, great grandson, or 28 generations down the line. The same is true for a father, as evidenced here in the first verse when David will rest with his fathers. Immediately after Solomon, Israel split into two separate kingdoms and has never again been united. 3000 thousand years and counting. Even today the relatively recently established nation of Israel is divided between Israel and the Palestinian Authority.

    How then do we make sense of this? Simple, it hasn't happened yet. This prophecy clearly states that a son from David's descendants will be established in God's house and in God's kingdom forever. Do humans live forever? He has to be of a higher authority than man. The long awaited Messiah who will be established in God's house and in God's kingdom forever is called My Son by God himself. “I will be His Father, and He will be My Son.”

    6. Wisdom of Solomon 2:13-20 “He professeth to have the knowledge of God; and He calleth himself the child of the Lord. He was made to reprove our thoughts. He is grievous unto us even to behold; for His life is not like other men's, His ways are of another fashion. We are esteemed of Him as counterfeits; He abstaineth from our ways as from filthiness; He pronounceth the end of the just to be blessed, and maketh His boast that God is His Father. Let us see if His words be true; and let us prove what shall happen in the end of Him. For if the just man be the Son of God, He will help Him, and deliver Him from the hand of His enemies. Let us examine Him with despitefulness and torture, that we may know His meekness, and prove His patience. Let us condemn Him with a shameful death; for by His own saying He shall be respected.”

    This passage is from the book of the Wisdom of Solomon. It is included in the Catholic Bible but not the Protestant Bible. It was included in the Greek Septuagint (LXX), which was translated in the 3rd century BC, and is the oldest version on the Old Testament that has survived. Scholars disagree about this books origin. Whether it was written by Solomon himself or not, is not all that important here. The point here is we have a prophecy of the murder of a man who will claim to be the Son of God written at least 200 years prior to the time of Jesus. This prophecy is remarkably similar to the NT accounts of Jesus.

    7. Isaiah 9:6 “For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given; and the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”

    Prophecy of the Messiah. This is the grandaddy of them all. It may not jump out to you at first, but let me highlight, “a Son is given and He will be called Mighty God.” If the Son isn't God, why would he be called Mighty God? How can God give a son to be called Mighty God, if he doesn't have a son? A created human Messiah would never be called Mighty God. That would be blasphemy.

    If this was the only statement about the Son of God in the entire Old Testament, it would be concrete proof. For unto us a child is born, means he will be born of woman just as we all were. Mighty God cannot possibly mean anything other than this man who was born of woman is God, the Son of God. The Son of God is God. Some Christians still do not understand that Jesus is God. The New Testament says it may times. Jesus, himself, declared that he was God. Even the Old Testament clearly says that Jesus is God.
    “A Child is born” and “a Son is given” are two separate statements. They are related of course. This points to the fact that God's son will make two entries into this world.

    When the Son is given, the government will be on his shoulders. (See Psalms 2) Jews claim that this cannot be about Jesus, because Jesus never ran a government. They fail to recognize the two separate statements, as well as the multitude of other prophecies about the Messiah coming twice. They have no idea that Jesus is coming back one day. When he comes, they will mourn, as we will discover a bit later.

    Ezekiel, Isaiah, King Solomon, and King David can hardly be considered lightweights in Jewish history, and they all plainly write about God's son. Many believe Isaiah to be the greatest among the prophets. It is also nearly unanimous among Jews that King David was the greatest king in Jewish history. This is evident by the star of David on the Israeli flag.

    II Samuel 23:1-2 “Now these are the last words of David. Thus says David the son of Jesse, thus says the man raised up on high, the anointed of the God of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel: 'The Spirit of the Lord spoke by me, and His word was on my tongue.'

    The Psalms are loaded with the prophetic words of God.

    Conclusion. God has a Son who is greatly exalted and called Mighty God. Does this mean Jesus is true? No, not yet. This just means that Jesus is a possibility. More to come.

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    Re: Jesus in the Old Testament

    The title alone got me excited. There is material in this. Genesis points to Jesus. Great idea Tony.
    True Truth Exists & Can Be Found.

    A gentle answer turns away wrath; but a harsh word stirs up anger.
    Proverbs 15:1

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    ~Praying for BDH~




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    Re: Jesus in the Old Testament

    Many may know this, but for those that don't, Jesus is specifically named as Lord in the Old Testament. Not is some vague or mysterious way. His very name is given in Zechariah. Check this out!

    Isaiah 4:2. “In that day the Branch of the Lord shall be beautiful and glorious"

    Jeremiah 23:5-6 “'Behold, the days are coming,' says the Lord, 'Thar I will raise to David a Branch of righteousness; A king shall reign and prosper, and execute judgment and righteousness in the earth. In His days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell safely; Now this is the name by which he will be called: The Lord Our Righteousness!'”

    Zechariah 3:8-9 “Hear, O Joshua, the high priest,...For behold, I am bringing forth My Servant the Branch. For behold, the stone that I have laid before Joshua... And I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.”

    Psalms 80:15,17 “And the vineyard which Your right hand has planted, and the Branch that You made strong for Yourself...Let Your hand be upon the man of Your right hand, upon the Son of Man whom You made strong for Yourself.”

    Isaiah 11:1-2 “There shall come forth from the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots. The Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon Him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord.”

    Drum roll....

    Zechariah 6:11-12 “Take the silver and gold, make an elaborate crown, and set it on the head of Joshua son of Jehozadek, the high priest. Then speak to him, saying, 'Thus says the Lord of hosts, saying: Behold, the Man whose name is the BRANCH!”

    The Branch is named Joshua! This is Yehoshua in Hebrew. This is the very name translated as Jesus. How? Here is a quick run down.

    Yehoshua – Original Hebrew Name meaning Yahweh is salvation
    Yeshua – Shortened Hebrew version during/after Babylonian exile
    Iesous – Yeshua translated into Greek
    Iesvs – Yeshua translated into Latin
    Iesus – Original King James English Edition
    Jesus – Modern English Versions

    That is right. Jesus is named in the Old Testament. From the verses above He is called: Beautiful, Glorious, Righteous, King, Judge, Lord our Righteousness, Remover of Sin, Son of Man made strong for God, Holy Spirit upon Him, having Wisdom, Counselor, Mighty, having the Spirit of Knowledge. And his name is Jesus!


    Want more? Have you ever wondered what Matthew meant in Matthew 2:23?

    “And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, 'He shall be called a Nazarene.'”

    When did the prophets speak of a Nazarene? The root Hebrew word for Nazarene means Branch or Vine. When Jesus called himself the true Vine, he was pointing us to these scriptures. The six verses listed here that tell us about “the Branch,” are in fact, telling us about “the Nazarene.” The Nazarene named Jesus. Jesus the Nazarene is the same as Yehoshua the Branch. It is unmistakable. Jesus of Nazareth is Lord! We could have known all this about Him, 500 years before He was born. The prophets told us who the Messiah was in advance. Jesus is all over the OT. He owns it!

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    Re: Jesus in the Old Testament

    Quote Originally Posted by bluesky22 View Post
    The title alone got me excited. There is material in this. Genesis points to Jesus. Great idea Tony.
    Yes, thanks. We will get to Genesis and Jesus in this thread.

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    Re: Jesus in the Old Testament

    How Yehoshua became Jesus

    Yehoshua is the original name for Jesus. Yehoshua was a common name in Israel before the time of Jesus. After him, not so much. Come to think of it, the name Judas, also faded around this time. The name Yehoshua is important because it contains the very meaning and purpose of his reason for coming. Yehoshua means Yahweh is salvation or Yahweh saves. (Yahweh is the name of God, next chapter) Names are very important in the Bible. Moses means “drawn forth” from the Nile. Yahweh changed Jacob's name to Israel meaning “May Yahweh Prevail.” God changed Abram's name to Abraham meaning “Father of a multitude.” Etc. It only makes sense that the Messiah sent by God would have a name of significant meaning.

    Yehoshua was also written as Yeshua during and after the Babylonian exile (606-399 BC), through the time of Jesus. By 200-400 AD Yehoshua was rarely used. Both the KJV and NIV, and all their offshoots, were translated using Hebrew old testament versions that were written after the time of Jesus, thus they will use the spelling Yeshua. From my research, it is likely that the letter “Hey” was dropped as sign of divine disapproval. The Babylonian exile was the lowest point in the history of the Jews during the time the Tanakh was being written. The book of Lamentations attests to this fact. It was also the time of some of the most profound Biblical prophets including Daniel, Ezekiel, and Jeremiah. The Jewish Talmud confirms that Yehoshua and Yeshua are equivalent.

    There are several other variations of the spellings of the name/word. Some with different vowels and some add an “h” at the end. We need to realize that these spellings are the phonetic English sound of the Hebrew name. Is there any difference in the pronunciation of Yeshua and Yeshuah? No. In modern times, the name is sometimes shortened again to Yeshu or Yashu. I have even seen Y'shu a couple of times. The root definition of all of them is, salvation. All of these variations were popular Hebrew names 2000 years ago. Just as Bill, Billy, Will, Willie, and William are today. Why is the same word/name spelled differently? Time. All languages evolve over time. These slight alterations are actually remarkably minor given a 3500 year span.

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    Re: Jesus in the Old Testament

    Hebrew to Greek to English

    So, we explained how Yehoshua became Yeshua. Yeshua became Iesous when translated into Greek. The Greek language lacked an Ayin. The Ayin is a silent letter written as an A likely because the Aleph, the first letter in the Hebrew alphabet, is also silent. Greek also lacked the “SH” sound, so only the “S” remained. This is the reason the A and H were dropped. Becoming Yehsou. The Hebrew “Yeh” is the Greek equivalent to “Ie.” The final “s” was added to the Greek to indicate that it was a mans name. Virtually all male Greek names end with an “s.” They did not use lower case letters as we do today. All letters were capital, so a distinction was needed.

    Therefore the Greek translation of Yeshua is Iesous. Through the same process the Latin translation became Iesvs. Believe it or not, the letter “U” and the letter “V” were often interchangeable in the English language only 400 years ago. The King James 1611 edition spells Paul as Pavl. This original King James version dropped the “o” likely to make it match the Latin so the name Iesous became Iesus. The letter “J” was first introduced around the 10-14 century AD, depending how scholars interpret its origin. It had a powerful or dominate sound and became popular for names. Notice the J is very similar to I just add a hook at the bottom. Later versions of the King James made the final transition to the name we use today. Jesus.

    Yehoshua – Original Hebrew Name meaning Yahweh is salvation
    Yeshua – Shortened Hebrew version during/after Babylonian exile
    Iesous – Yeshua translated into Greek
    Iesvs – Yeshua translated into Latin
    Iesus – Original King James English Edition
    Jesus – Modern English Versions

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    Re: Jesus in the Old Testament

    Since the letter “J” was introduced a thousand years after the Bible was completed, it is clear that all the words with the letter “J” have been edited. Jew, Jerusalem, Jacob, Joshua, Jared, Jesus, etc. are not the original spellings of these words. Most often the “J” replaced “Ye.” This may not seem critical but as we will soon discover, the name and word Yeshua, or an equivalent spelling, is key to understanding many of the prophecies in the old testament. Yeshua = Jesus, and Jesus = Yeshua.

    Yehoshua is the name that was also translated as Joshua in the Bible. Why did the same exact name become Jesus for some and Joshua for others? It has to do with translation. The Old Testament was translated directly from Hebrew to English. Hence the closer translation. The New Testament was originally written in Greek. The Hebrew names were translated into Greek, and then from Greek to Latin and English. These extra steps radically changed the spelling of names since their alphabets do not have equivalent letters. The Old Testament uses Joshua or Jeshua and the New Testament uses Jesus. Same Hebrew name.

    Here is some easily accessible evidence of the fact that Jesus and Joshua originate from the identical Hebrew name. Read Hebrews 4:8 in your King James version and your NIV Bible. (Available online free if you don't have both)

    KJV 8 “For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.”

    NIV 8 “For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day.”

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    Re: Jesus in the Old Testament

    A quick aside, if I may. I find it interesting that the man who led the Israelites into the promised land the first time was named Joshua (Yehoshua). Moses had led them 40 years in the wilderness but died within sight of Israel. Also, the first exodus from Babylonian captivity, under the order of Cyrus the Great, was led by a high priest named Jeshua (Yehoshua). He led 40,000 Israelites back into the promised land. It will be Jesus (Yehoshua) who gathers his people from all the nations and brings them into the promised land once and for all. (The prophecies say that the Jews will be overrun and taken captive one more time before the Messiah comes to gather them) What a coincidence. God left bread crumbs all throughout history. Finding them is the ultimate Easter egg hunt.

  10. #10

    Re: Jesus in the Old Testament

    Not only does Genesis point to Jesus but Jesus Christ appears in the book of Genesis and a couple of other books in the Old Testament. His first appearance is in Genesis 16. Can you please tell me where?

    IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
    bluto

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    Re: Jesus in the Old Testament

    Bumped for anybody. nt

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    Re: Jesus in the Old Testament

    Quote Originally Posted by bluto View Post
    Not only does Genesis point to Jesus but Jesus Christ appears in the book of Genesis and a couple of other books in the Old Testament. His first appearance is in Genesis 16. Can you please tell me where?

    IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
    bluto
    I don't understand. Are you asking a question, or making a statement? I don't think I listed anything about Genesis 16. That is why I thought you were making a statement. You are right about Jesus in Genesis. He is brought forth in the second verse of the first chapter.

  13. #13

    Re: Jesus in the Old Testament

    Ok let me explain it to you tony. You op says "Jesus in the Old Testament." I'm just saying that He physcially appeared in the Old Testament not only in Genesis but in other books. I also said His first appearance is at Genesis 16 at verse seven.? You then posted that He appeared at Genesis 1:2. How did you arrive at that conclusion? My Bible says the Spirit of God moved over the surface of the waters. Jesus is not the person of the Holy Spirit.

    IN GOD THE SON,
    james

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    Re: Jesus in the Old Testament

    I think it was Jesus who walked with Adam and Eve In cool of the evening ( gen 3) . It was Jesus who joined Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego in a fiery furnace by Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon. The three are preserved from harm and the king sees four men walking in the flames, "the form of the fourth is like the Son of God".[1][2]
    True Truth Exists & Can Be Found.

    A gentle answer turns away wrath; but a harsh word stirs up anger.
    Proverbs 15:1

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  15. #15

    Re: Jesus in the Old Testament

    Your exactly right! Now, please look at Genesis 16 starting at vs7, "Now the angel of the Lord found her by a spring of water in the wilderness, by the spring on the way to Shur. (To shorten this I will go to vs10). Moreover the angel of the Lord said to her/Hagar, "I will greatly multiply your descendants so that they whall be too many to count."

    At vs13, "Then she/Hagar called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, "Thou aret a God who sees; for she said, Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him." Now go to Genesis 17:1,2. "Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty; Walk before Me, and be blameless, vs2, And I will establish My covenant between Me and you, And I will multiply your exceedingly."

    Here is my question? Is the Lord God Almighty who appeared to Abram at Genesis 17:1,2 the same being as the angel of the Lord at Genesis 16?

    IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
    bluto

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