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Thread: 2 Thessalonians 2

  1. #181
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    Re: 2 Thessalonians 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Point-man View Post
    I think you might be wrong on that one. If Paul believed any thing like John, he would be mid-trib and I can prove it.
    I am pre-wrath/mid-trib... Both, Because I know that there are actually two 3.5 periods. One at the Abomination, and one shortly after when the 144,000 are sealed and the Church is resurrected, Judged, then taken up to heaven to prepare for the wedding... The Abomination will happen right before the fourth Seal, and the Rapture happens right after the sixth Seal, and at the time of the sealing of the 144,000. Rev 7:9-17 is the results of the Rapture.

    I would like to see how you prove that Paul is Mid trib... (As I believe you, but I want to see how YOU prove it )

  2. #182

    Re: 2 Thessalonians 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Point-man View Post
    Who is the let in 2 Thes 2:7? I have a very good idea. But just wanted to give you a shot at it.
    In Dan 7 the 4th Beast, which I believe is Rome, continues until it breaks up, eventually becoming 10 kingdoms. We know Rome fell in 476 AD, leaving the imperial tradition continuing in the East. Eventually the Eastern Empire at Constantinople fell as well, in 1453 AD. At some point the Holy Roman Empire began to preside over separate states as a diminishing power, coming to be overshadowed by individual states. And this is exactly as Dan 7 anticipated it, as a major empire fell and splintered into what is becoming a 10 nation confederation. The 10 nations that have had at some point imperial power include Italy, France, Germany, Spain, Austria, and Russia. There are others, from West to East in Europe.

    My argument, therefore, is that ancient Rome held back the rise of Antichrist, since Rome had to exist before Antichrist could appear. And now that Rome has fallen, the previous state of Europe continues to prevent the rise of Antichrist since there is not yet a 10 nation confederation.

    Some people theorize that the Holy Spirit or the Church is what "holds back" the rise of Antichrist. Then, when their restraint of Antichrist is lifted, the Church will be "raptured," and the Antichrist will rise.

    Nothing could be more absurd. Paul said in 2 Thes 2 that the rapture of the Church takes place at the 2nd Coming of Christ when he comes to destroy the Antichrist. Nothing could be clearer.

    2 Thes 2.1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction... Then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

  3. #183
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    Re: 2 Thessalonians 2

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    In Dan 7 the 4th Beast, which I believe is Rome, continues until it breaks up, eventually becoming 10 kingdoms. We know Rome fell in 476 AD, leaving the imperial tradition continuing in the East. Eventually the Eastern Empire at Constantinople fell as well, in 1453 AD. At some point the Holy Roman Empire began to preside over separate states as a diminishing power, coming to be overshadowed by individual states. And this is exactly as Dan 7 anticipated it, as a major empire fell and splintered into what is becoming a 10 nation confederation. The 10 nations that have had at some point imperial power include Italy, France, Germany, Spain, Austria, and Russia. There are others, from West to East in Europe.

    My argument, therefore, is that ancient Rome held back the rise of Antichrist, since Rome had to exist before Antichrist could appear. And now that Rome has fallen, the previous state of Europe continues to prevent the rise of Antichrist since there is not yet a 10 nation confederation.

    Some people theorize that the Holy Spirit or the Church is what "holds back" the rise of Antichrist. Then, when their restraint of Antichrist is lifted, the Church will be "raptured," and the Antichrist will rise.

    Nothing could be more absurd. Paul said in 2 Thes 2 that the rapture of the Church takes place at the 2nd Coming of Christ when he comes to destroy the Antichrist. Nothing could be clearer.

    2 Thes 2.1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction... Then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.
    The Fourth Beast receives a MORTAL WOUND figuratively speaking. The Fourth Beast is the 6th Head of Rev. 13. The Sixth Head was Rome and CEASED being alive when Israel ceased being a country. The Beast can only be a BEAST when Israel is in the Land because the Beasts are Juxtaposed to the STORY OF ISRAEL, of course. When Israel is Reborn from the Dead Men's Bones, the Beast can then be Reborn/Revived, and that is what happens when the Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem/Israel. The Beast is Revived, the Mortal Wound (The Figurative Wound) is HEALED.

    All of this Rome turned into 10 Kings in the 1400's is pure fantasy. The 10 Kings rule a SHORT TIME with the BEAST at the END.

  4. #184

    Re: 2 Thessalonians 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    The Fourth Beast receives a MORTAL WOUND figuratively speaking. The Fourth Beast is the 6th Head of Rev. 13. The Sixth Head was Rome and CEASED being alive when Israel ceased being a country. The Beast can only be a BEAST when Israel is in the Land because the Beasts are Juxtaposed to the STORY OF ISRAEL, of course. When Israel is Reborn from the Dead Men's Bones, the Beast can then be Reborn/Revived, and that is what happens when the Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem/Israel. The Beast is Revived, the Mortal Wound (The Figurative Wound) is HEALED.

    All of this Rome turned into 10 Kings in the 1400's is pure fantasy. The 10 Kings rule a SHORT TIME with the BEAST at the END.
    I completely agree with you. We may not agree on the Rapture timing, but Rome is indeed the 6th head of the Beast, which receives a fatal wound--Rome fell in 476 AD. John said the Beast was, and "is not." Indeed the Beast had existed in the form of Rome, and did not yet present the Antichrist. But I think it experienced its "fatal wound" in 476 AD, when ancient Rome fell.

    But as I've been saying, Rome has revived in the form of the Holy Roman Empire, and now in the form of European states, both East and West. Well, to be honest these things are very, very arguable. I don't claim to have them nailed down. It is only my current theory. It just seems to fit the record of both John's time and history since.

  5. #185
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    Re: 2 Thessalonians 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    The Fourth Beast receives a MORTAL WOUND figuratively speaking. The Fourth Beast is the 6th Head of Rev. 13. The Sixth Head was Rome and CEASED being alive when Israel ceased being a country. The Beast can only be a BEAST when Israel is in the Land because the Beasts are Juxtaposed to the STORY OF ISRAEL, of course. When Israel is Reborn from the Dead Men's Bones, the Beast can then be Reborn/Revived, and that is what happens when the Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem/Israel. The Beast is Revived, the Mortal Wound (The Figurative Wound) is HEALED.

    All of this Rome turned into 10 Kings in the 1400's is pure fantasy. The 10 Kings rule a SHORT TIME with the BEAST at the END.
    All very true and insightful, especially relating the revival of the beast to Israel. There is that contradiction in terminology regarding the beast, the beast both exists and does not exist at the time of the writing of Revelation. 5 were, ONE IS, and one to come. (the beast is then the 8th). Yet the beast was and is not and is to come. Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 hint at an ongoing Rome without any break in rule , right until the second coming.

    I find that the best way to reconcile all of this is to look at Daniel 2 for the three stages of Rome:
    IRON = Roman Empire
    TWO FEET (IRON AND CLAY) = Roman Empire split between Papal Rome and Istanbul 476AD
    TEN TOES ROME = A final Middle Eastern Rome of ten countries, a movement of the capital to Jerusalem

    5 WERE: Egypt Assyria Babylon Persia Greece
    1 IS : Rome
    1 to come : Papal Rome/ Istanbul (wounded/split head)
    8th Empire Jerusalem/Istanbul alliance: Israel revived

    During the 8th empire Rome/EU takes the role of whore to Istanbul, who hates her religious manipulation.

  6. #186
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    Re: 2 Thessalonians 2

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    All very true and insightful, especially relating the revival of the beast to Israel. There is that contradiction in terminology regarding the beast, the beast both exists and does not exist at the time of the writing of Revelation. 5 were, ONE IS, and one to come. (the beast is then the 8th). Yet the beast was and is not and is to come. Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 hint at an ongoing Rome without any break in rule , right until the second coming.

    I find that the best way to reconcile all of this is to look at Daniel 2 for the three stages of Rome:
    IRON = Roman Empire
    TWO FEET (IRON AND CLAY) = Roman Empire split between Papal Rome and Istanbul 476AD
    TEN TOES ROME = A final Middle Eastern Rome of ten countries, a movement of the capital to Jerusalem

    5 WERE Egypt Assyria Babylon Persia Greece
    1 IS Rome
    1 to come Papal Rome/ Istanbul (wounded/split head)
    8th Empire Jerusalem/Istanbul alliance Israel revived

    During the 8th empire Rome/EU takes the role of whore to Istanbul, who hates her religious manipulation.
    If the Miry clay and the Iron are "Papal Rome/ Istanbul", then how does this apply?

    43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

  7. #187
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    Re: 2 Thessalonians 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    If the Miry clay and the Iron are "Papal Rome/ Istanbul", then how does this apply?

    43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
    This has many possibilities.

    One thought is that clay is the symbol of true religion, people with good hearts able to be molded for good use. Miry clay is therefore false religion and these two feet have false religion deeply embedded in their politics which makes an uncomfortable mix. (RCI/Rome and Islam/Istanbul)

    A second thought is that it is a mingling of autonomous states and people which make up the EU in the west, and the Islamic Caliphate in the east. (Istanbul has been in a lull for 100 years but prophetically should grow powerful soon)

  8. #188

    Re: 2 Thessalonians 2

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    All very true and insightful, especially relating the revival of the beast to Israel. There is that contradiction in terminology regarding the beast, the beast both exists and does not exist at the time of the writing of Revelation. 5 were, ONE IS, and one to come. (the beast is then the 8th). Yet the beast was and is not and is to come. Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 hint at an ongoing Rome without any break in rule , right until the second coming.

    I find that the best way to reconcile all of this is to look at Daniel 2 for the three stages of Rome:
    IRON = Roman Empire
    TWO FEET (IRON AND CLAY) = Roman Empire split between Papal Rome and Istanbul 476AD
    TEN TOES ROME = A final Middle Eastern Rome of ten countries, a movement of the capital to Jerusalem

    5 WERE: Egypt Assyria Babylon Persia Greece
    1 IS : Rome
    1 to come : Papal Rome/ Istanbul (wounded/split head)
    8th Empire Jerusalem/Istanbul alliance: Israel revived

    During the 8th empire Rome/EU takes the role of whore to Istanbul, who hates her religious manipulation.
    I agree with this, but failed to see how you reconciled the fact the Beast "was not" in John's day? I do understand how Rome "is" in John's day, because Rome existed at that time as one of the 7 heads of the Beast. But how do you reconcile the fact that the Beast "was not" in John's day?

    Are you saying that Rome "was not" in John's day because Rome was divided many years later in 476 AD? It is possible that John was saying the Beast "is not" as a projection into the future of Rome's fall?

    My own view is that Rome "was not" in John's day because he was specifically referring to Antichrist himself, who obviously "was not" in John's day. The Beast "was," because it had existed in its pre-Antichrist form, as a series of empires. But it "is not" because Antichrist had not yet appeared. He "is to come" because Antichrist will appear at the end of the age.

    This is just my theory. I'm wondering what yours is?

  9. #189
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    Re: 2 Thessalonians 2

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I agree with this, but failed to see how you reconciled the fact the Beast "was not" in John's day? I do understand how Rome "is" in John's day, because Rome existed at that time as one of the 7 heads of the Beast. But how do you reconcile the fact that the Beast "was not" in John's day?

    Are you saying that Rome "was not" in John's day because Rome was divided many years later in 476 AD? It is possible that John was saying the Beast "is not" as a projection into the future of Rome's fall?

    My own view is that Rome "was not" in John's day because he was specifically referring to Antichrist himself, who obviously "was not" in John's day. The Beast "was," because it had existed in its pre-Antichrist form, as a series of empires. But it "is not" because Antichrist had not yet appeared. He "is to come" because Antichrist will appear at the end of the age.

    This is just my theory. I'm wondering what yours is?
    I'm referring to Israel. The beast Rome moves it's capital to Jerusalem at the start of the great tribulation. Thus the little horn/antichrist stage of Rome is when the antichrist tries to be an imposter to Jesus and makes himself look like the Messiah by placing Israel at the forefront of world politics and expanding Israel's territory to the Euphrates. The little horn (small country) rules the Middle East, Rome manifests in Israel with the Istanbul/Rome axis in full support (the beast Rome with two tiny horns supports the new capital of Rome, the beast Israel with ten horns)

    Thus the Vatican, ruler of Christendom, and Istanbul, future Caliphate and unifier of moderate Islam both harness world support for the antichrist in Israel as reflected in the two beasts of Rev 13. Both beasts in some sense reflect Rome. The two tiny horns of Rev 13 reflecting these two religious capitals that can influence religious thought across the world. The antichrist beast represents Israel.

  10. #190
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    Re: 2 Thessalonians 2

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I completely agree with you. We may not agree on the Rapture timing, but Rome is indeed the 6th head of the Beast, which receives a fatal wound--Rome fell in 476 AD. John said the Beast was, and "is not." Indeed the Beast had existed in the form of Rome, and did not yet present the Antichrist. But I think it experienced its "fatal wound" in 476 AD, when ancient Rome fell.

    But as I've been saying, Rome has revived in the form of the Holy Roman Empire, and now in the form of European states, both East and West. Well, to be honest these things are very, very arguable. I don't claim to have them nailed down. It is only my current theory. It just seems to fit the record of both John's time and history since.
    Well you do agree in essence, but how we get to the end game seems to diverge a wee bit.

    Rome falling as nothing to do with it being a Beast, think about it, it was not a Beast because it was a Super Power, else the USA, USSR, England would have been Beasts, it was a Beast because it ruled over the Israeli peoples who were in Israel, once Jerusalem was sacked and its people dispersed the world over, that is when Rome received the "MORTAL WOUND" around 70 AD to 125 AD, it was not in the 476 AD Period, because it was NOT A BEAST at that time. There was no Israel thus there can be no Beast. People have to get that point, the Mortal Wound happened in 70-125 AD. Only when Israel becomes a Nation again can we have another Beast, this is why the "Holy Roman Empire" and the Ottoman Empire CAN NOT BE BEASTS, only this future Anti-Christ/Human/Man can be the last Beast.

    The whole WAS.....IS NOT.....YET IS, is misconstrued. I will post that scripture, even though I don't like to post scriptures much, I need to make this point about the Beast that WAS...IS NOT...YET IS.

    Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. 9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. 11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition (HELL).

    So this Beast that WAS and IS NOT.....YET IS is none other than an 8th King who has been locked in a pIt since around 70-125 AD. Even Paul tells us this IF WE LISTEN in his writing in 90ish AD. He says at that time the Beast IS NOT.....In 90 AD, does anyone else get that? In 90 AD the Beast WAS NOT....YET IS. He was in the Bottomless pit at that time. Who arises from the bottomless pit in Rev. ch. 9? Apollyon........so Apollyon the Destroyer was given this job title by Satan, he is the "PRINCIPALITY IN HIGH PLACES" so to speak. He brought forth Nations against Israel in order to Destroy them, and Gods plans for Israel, of course, like Satan comes against us everyday, and Gods plans for our lives. Egypt enslaved Israel, Assyria took the 10 Tribes away, Babylon took Israel Captive, Persia ruled Israel but freed them of sorts, Greece conquered Israel as did Rome, all of these SIX were Headed by the 8TH KING Apollyon (Demon Spirit), when Rome Ceased being a BEAST (There was no Israel) then Apollyon was SEIZED and thrown into the Bottomless Pit, thus the BEAST (8TH KING/Apollyon) WAS......IS NOT at the time John wrote Revelation.....YET IS because he is yet alive, just in prison until a future date when this Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem, then he will be freed from the Bottomless Pit, this is why he is OF THE SEVEN, but is the 8th King. John is telling us there are SEVEN EMPIRES/Beast Heads that Rule over Israel in some capacity but there is an 8th (Demon) that is over them all. Of course Satan has devils/demons assigned to regions, we all know that in reality.

    So we disagree about the Holy Roman Empire, that IMHO, is just something someone made up, someone led by a demonic spirit who was deceived, but it sounded very plausible, and since God was not going to reveal these deep truths until the end times, many ran with it, when it was never the truth.

  11. #191
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    Re: 2 Thessalonians 2

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    All very true and insightful, especially relating the revival of the beast to Israel. There is that contradiction in terminology regarding the beast, the beast both exists and does not exist at the time of the writing of Revelation. 5 were, ONE IS, and one to come. (the beast is then the 8th). Yet the beast was and is not and is to come. Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 hint at an ongoing Rome without any break in rule , right until the second coming.

    I find that the best way to reconcile all of this is to look at Daniel 2 for the three stages of Rome:
    IRON = Roman Empire
    TWO FEET (IRON AND CLAY) = Roman Empire split between Papal Rome and Istanbul 476AD
    TEN TOES ROME = A final Middle Eastern Rome of ten countries, a movement of the capital to Jerusalem

    5 WERE: Egypt Assyria Babylon Persia Greece
    1 IS : Rome
    1 to come : Papal Rome/ Istanbul (wounded/split head)
    8th Empire Jerusalem/Istanbul alliance: Israel revived

    During the 8th empire Rome/EU takes the role of whore to Istanbul, who hates her religious manipulation.
    I explain the WAS....IS NOT....YET IS in post 190 brother, no use repeating it here, its just above.

    As you stated about my point of Israel needing to become a Nation again before the Beast can "Heal his Mortal Wound" the same thing can be said for the STATUE in Daniel chapter 2. We can not look at the STATUE in a linear manner from Babylon to the Anti-Christ, you have to look at the STATUE in Relation to Israel. Babylon to Rome (Israel is NO MORE.............Then Israel is a Nation again in 1948) then the LITTLE HORN that comes out of Greece/Europe/Fourth Beast. There is a 2000 year SKIP, just like the 70 Week Decree of Daniel has a 2000 year SKIP. Its like All Prophecies concerning Israel were DELAYED until God brought Israel back from DEAD MEN'S BONES as Ezekiel Prophesied.

    Watch this, if God decreed a Judgment against Israel, then Israel was DEAD.....How can that punishment be delivered? It can only be delivered when Israel is regathered, and they become a Nation again. That is why we have ONE WEEK LEFT in Israel's punishment, which is designed to bring REPENTANCE. That is why the Statue is only in juxtaposition to ISRAEL'S WHOLE LIFE SPAN !! Its Babylon to ROME then the 10 Toes. Its perfect. Thus there is NO BREAK in the Statue or in the Beasts per se, just a BREAK in Israel being a NATION. Everything has to be looked at in juxtaposition to Israel brother. You see you add in things NOT NEEDED to get us to the Anti-Christ. There was NO ISRAEL for 2000 years. Think of a Kingdom MAP of Israel.........It would go to Rome then JUMP to 1948 !!!

    Its not easy to understand, but God is slowly revealing all these things unto us.

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    Re: 2 Thessalonians 2

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I agree with this, but failed to see how you reconciled the fact the Beast "was not" in John's day? I do understand how Rome "is" in John's day, because Rome existed at that time as one of the 7 heads of the Beast. But how do you reconcile the fact that the Beast "was not" in John's day?

    Are you saying that Rome "was not" in John's day because Rome was divided many years later in 476 AD? It is possible that John was saying the Beast "is not" as a projection into the future of Rome's fall?

    My own view is that Rome "was not" in John's day because he was specifically referring to Antichrist himself, who obviously "was not" in John's day. The Beast "was," because it had existed in its pre-Antichrist form, as a series of empires. But it "is not" because Antichrist had not yet appeared. He "is to come" because Antichrist will appear at the end of the age.

    This is just my theory. I'm wondering what yours is?
    When Israel "DIED OFF" so to speak, Apollyon the 8th Beast was cast into the pit thus the BEAST (8TH KING) was no More yet the Empire that was brought forth (ROME) was still around and troubling Israel for yet a While, in 125 AD Israel tried to take back Jerusalem and kind of did for a year or so until they were destroyed for good. So that is why it reads that way. The BEAST DEMON (Apollyon) was in the PIT when John wrote Revelation, in my opinion. But Rome the Fourth Beast was still around and troubling Israel until at least 125 AD.

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    Re: 2 Thessalonians 2

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    This has many possibilities.

    One thought is that clay is the symbol of true religion, people with good hearts able to be molded for good use. Miry clay is therefore false religion and these two feet have false religion deeply embedded in their politics which makes an uncomfortable mix. (RCI/Rome and Islam/Istanbul)

    A second thought is that it is a mingling of autonomous states and people which make up the EU in the west, and the Islamic Caliphate in the east. (Istanbul has been in a lull for 100 years but prophetically should grow powerful soon)
    In both of your theories, you do not address the "seed of men", and the cleaving to one another. It is interesting that it says "seed of men". This term to a Israelite was specific to two interchangeable things, GENTILES and FLESH. Israel was from the "seed of woman"... Walk up to any Rabbi and ask him if the seed of the Jewish faith is passed from man to son, or mother to son. They will tell you the Jew is of the Woman. However this prophecy is of the FLESH. The seed of men actually represents individuals of FLESH (Iron) and individuals NOT OF the seed of man. (one can not say the clay represents the "seed of woman", as the seed of woman is of FLESH as well.) And indeed the Seed of Men and the seed of Women did cleave together and create the Samaritans. However in this prophecy, they CAN NOT cleave together. Also, these non-FLESH individuals are clay. All the other materials are METALS, hard and firm. This material has no likeness to METAL...

    How do you address this?

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    Re: 2 Thessalonians 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    In both of your theories, you do not address the "seed of men", and the cleaving to one another. It is interesting that it says "seed of men". This term to a Israelite was specific to two interchangeable things, GENTILES and FLESH. Israel was from the "seed of woman"... Walk up to any Rabbi and ask him if the seed of the Jewish faith is passed from man to son, or mother to son. They will tell you the Jew is of the Woman. However this prophecy is of the FLESH. The seed of men actually represents individuals of FLESH (Iron) and individuals NOT OF the seed of man. (one can not say the clay represents the "seed of woman", as the seed of woman is of FLESH as well.) And indeed the Seed of Men and the seed of Women did cleave together and create the Samaritans. However in this prophecy, they CAN NOT cleave together. Also, these non-FLESH individuals are clay. All the other materials are METALS, hard and firm. This material has no likeness to METAL...

    How do you address this?
    I have heard the Israel angle before and it is a possibility to consider. But we are all the seed of men. Maybe the NIV can give us further clarity:

    NIV 42 As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. 43 And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay[/B]

    WEST: A mixture of people in the EU, French/German/British/Italian/Spanish etc that do not remain united (eg BREXIT). In the past the same situation applied, Western Europe was loosely united and the Pope created wars between the various countries to try and keep a hold over most of Europe. A mixture of people not always united made up the Pope's empire of Western Europe.

    EAST: The same occurred in the Eastern Roman Empire. Initially the Byzantium Empire ruled but then Istanbul came under Islamic rule and became the Islamic Caliphate. This gave it loose religious power even outside the Ottoman Empire where certain regions affiliated themselves with the rule of the Caliph. Countries like Iran and parts of India were part of this loose unity of independent Islamic states.

    And so the words "the people will be a mixture and will not remain united" applies well to both parts of the divided Roman Empire, western Europe and Turkey.

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    Re: 2 Thessalonians 2

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    I have heard the Israel angle before and it is a possibility to consider. But we are all the seed of men. Maybe the NIV can give us further clarity:

    NIV 42 As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. 43 And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay[/B]

    WEST: A mixture of people in the EU, French/German/British/Italian/Spanish etc that do not remain united (eg BREXIT). In the past the same situation applied, Western Europe was loosely united and the Pope created wars between the various countries to try and keep a hold over most of Europe. A mixture of people not always united made up the Pope's empire of Western Europe.

    EAST: The same occurred in the Eastern Roman Empire. Initially the Byzantium Empire ruled but then Istanbul came under Islamic rule and became the Islamic Caliphate. This gave it loose religious power even outside the Ottoman Empire where certain regions affiliated themselves with the rule of the Caliph. Countries like Iran and parts of India were part of this loose unity of independent Islamic states.

    And so the words "the people will be a mixture and will not remain united" applies well to both parts of the divided Roman Empire, western Europe and Turkey.
    I see the allure of that idea. But verse 43 is still not addressed at all... You must take all the verses together or it is not correct. Religions have nothing to do with "the seed of men" and cleaving (sex and marriage). (NIV incorrectly throws out words present in the Hebrew... Sad... )

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