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Thread: 2 Thessalonians 2

  1. #1
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    2 Thessalonians 2

    2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

    Let's start a discussion on it,to see if Paul is for pre-trib rapture or post-trib rapture.

  2. #2

    Re: 2 Thessalonians 2

    I think I already put my thoughts here [and a couple other recent posts]:

    http://bibleforums.org/showthread.ph...61#post3325061


    That's as much as I can add to the discussion at the present time. (My fingers are falling off. )


    [I'll try to go look for the other few links on that... back in awhile ]


    Adding another link to another of my posts (on this subject... what I can find thus far), as promised:

    http://bibleforums.org/showthread.ph...86#post3325186

  3. #3
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    Re: 2 Thessalonians 2

    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndcoming View Post
    2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

    Let's start a discussion on it,to see if Paul is for pre-trib rapture or post-trib rapture.
    Even if Apostisia means a Departure of the faith (I have grave doubts) then that in no wise would stop the pre-tribulation rapture. If their is an apostasy of the church, I don't see how the true church can fall away...nevertheless, if it is an apostasy, then the Rapture can still happen, before the Tribulation, and before the Man of Sin is Revealed, for it is The Day of the Lord that is being spoken of as coming AFTER the Man of Sin is Revealed, and Christians should know, the Day of the Lord is not the Rapture. The Day of the Lord is about judgment and wrath. But I have read an article recently that makes me think a little different.

    A New Insight ( Dr. David Reagan )

    But recently, my thinking about 2 Thessalonians 2:3 has changed — all because of an outstanding presentation on the subject that I heard Tommy Ice make at a conference where the two of us were speaking.

    For those of you who may not be familiar with Tommy Ice, he is a biblical scholar who graduated from Dallas Theological Seminary and who serves as the Director of the Pre-Trib Research Center (www.pre-trib.org).

    Tommy pointed out that the Greek noun, apostasia, is used only twice in the New Testament. The other occurrence is in Acts 21:21 where it states that an accusation was made against Paul that he was “teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake [apostasia] Moses.”

    The word is used in verb form a total of 15 times in the New Testament, and only three of these have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and Hebrews 3:12). In other settings, the word is used for departing from inquity (2 Timothy 2:19), departing from ungodly men (1 Timothy 6:5), departing from the temple (Luke 2:27), departing from the body (2 Corinthians 12:8), and departing from persons (Acts 12:10 and Luke 4:13).

    This insight about the use and meaning of the word was certainly compelling, but the argument Tommy presented that was most convicting to me was his revelation that the first seven English translations of the Bible rendered the noun, apostasia, as either “departure” or “departing.” They were as follows:1

    The Wycliffe Bible (1384)
    The Tyndale Bible (1526)
    The Coverdale Bible (1535)
    The Cranmer Bible (1539)
    The Great Bible (1540)
    The Beeches Bible (1576)
    The Geneva Bible (1608)
    Tommy also noted that the Bible used by the Western world from 400 AD to the 1500s — Jerome’s Latin translation known as “The Vulgate” — rendered apostasia with the Latin word, discessio, which means “departure.”

    The first translation of the word to mean apostasy in an English Bible did not occur until 1611 when the King James Version was issued. So, why did the King James translators introduce a completely new rendering of the word as “falling away”? The best guess is that they were taking a stab at the false teachings of Catholicism.

    One other point Tommy Ice made that I thought was significant is that Paul used a definite article with the word apostasia. The significance of this is emphasized by Daniel Davey in a thesis he wrote for the Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary:2

    Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article, reference is being made to something in particular. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure clearly known to the Thessalonian church.
    In light of this grammatical point, Tommy observed that “the use of the definite article would support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernable notion.”3 And that notion he had already identified in verse 1 when he stated that he was writing about “our gathering together to Him [Jesus].”

    This interpretation also corresponds to the point that Paul makes in verses 6 and 7 where he states that the man of lawlessness will not come until what “restrains” him “is taken out of the way.”

    And what it is that restrains evil in the world today? The Holy Spirit working through the Church.

  4. #4
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    Re: 2 Thessalonians 2

    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndcoming View Post
    Let's start a discussion on it,to see if Paul is for pre-trib rapture or post-trib rapture.
    We dont need 2 Thess 2 to prove that Paul is post trib. That can be proven by the earlier book, 1 Thess 4/5

    we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words. Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

    Paul expects to be alive at the time of sudden destruction, he doesn't expect to be raptured years earlier.

  5. #5

    Re: 2 Thessalonians 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    Even if Apostisia means a Departure of the faith (I have grave doubts) then that in no wise would stop the prr-tribulation rapture. If their is am apostasy of the church, I don't see how the true church can fall away...nevertheless, if it is an apostasy, then the Rapture can still happen, before the Tribulation, and before the Man of Sin is Revealed, for it is The Day of the Lord that is being spoken of as coming AFTER the Man of Sin is Revealed, and Christians should know, the Day of the Lord is not the Rapture. The Day of the Lord is about judgment and wrath. But I have read an article recently that makes me think a little different.

    A New Insight ( Dr. David Reagan )

    But recently, my thinking about 2 Thessalonians 2:3 has changed — all because of an outstanding presentation on the subject that I heard Tommy Ice make at a conference where the two of us were speaking.

    For those of you who may not be familiar with Tommy Ice, he is a biblical scholar who graduated from Dallas Theological Seminary and who serves as the Director of the Pre-Trib Research Center (www.pre-trib.org).

    Tommy pointed out that the Greek noun, apostasia, is used only twice in the New Testament. The other occurrence is in Acts 21:21 where it states that an accusation was made against Paul that he was “teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake [apostasia] Moses.”

    The word is used in verb form a total of 15 times in the New Testament, and only three of these have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and Hebrews 3:12). In other settings, the word is used for departing from inquity (2 Timothy 2:19), departing from ungodly men (1 Timothy 6:5), departing from the temple (Luke 2:27), departing from the body (2 Corinthians 12:8), and departing from persons (Acts 12:10 and Luke 4:13).

    This insight about the use and meaning of the word was certainly compelling, but the argument Tommy presented that was most convicting to me was his revelation that the first seven English translations of the Bible rendered the noun, apostasia, as either “departure” or “departing.” They were as follows:1

    The Wycliffe Bible (1384)
    The Tyndale Bible (1526)
    The Coverdale Bible (1535)
    The Cranmer Bible (1539)
    The Great Bible (1540)
    The Beeches Bible (1576)
    The Geneva Bible (1608)
    Tommy also noted that the Bible used by the Western world from 400 AD to the 1500s — Jerome’s Latin translation known as “The Vulgate” — rendered apostasia with the Latin word, discessio, which means “departure.”

    The first translation of the word to mean apostasy in an English Bible did not occur until 1611 when the King James Version was issued. So, why did the King James translators introduce a completely new rendering of the word as “falling away”? The best guess is that they were taking a stab at the false teachings of Catholicism.

    One other point Tommy Ice made that I thought was significant is that Paul used a definite article with the word apostasia. The significance of this is emphasized by Daniel Davey in a thesis he wrote for the Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary:2

    Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article, reference is being made to something in particular. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure clearly known to the Thessalonian church.
    In light of this grammatical point, Tommy observed that “the use of the definite article would support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernable notion.”3 And that notion he had already identified in verse 1 when he stated that he was writing about “our gathering together to Him [Jesus].”

    This interpretation also corresponds to the point that Paul makes in verses 6 and 7 where he states that the man of lawlessness will not come until what “restrains” him “is taken out of the way.”

    And what it is that restrains evil in the world today? The Holy Spirit working through the Church.
    YES!

    (I've posted that before too, from another author, same thing [Ice quotes him somewhere])...

    and you may never believe this, but while I had to go on an errand (between my last post and this one), I had prayed that the Lord would send another poster to post that very idea ^ (because of the fact of my fingers falling off [mentioned before], and the fact that I was hindered from searching for my other past posts on this subject [also mentioned before] due to this interruption-errand.)

    ... the Lord has LITERALLY answered my prayer! [<---why is this guy called "rapture"?? lol]



    Thank you, brother RM, for being God's answer to my specific prayer.

  6. #6

    Re: 2 Thessalonians 2

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    We dont need 2 Thess 2 to prove that Paul is post trib. That can be proven by the earlier book, 1 Thess 4/5

    we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words. Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

    Paul expects to be alive at the time of sudden destruction, he doesn't expect to be raptured years earlier.
    ["the earlier book"] Paul has just given THE SAME EXACT SEQUENCE/ORDER of events in 1Th4-5 (that he also later gives in 2Th2 [and repeats 3x there!]).

    "FIRST", "the rapture/THE Departure"...

    THEN, "the Day of the Lord [the time period]" (which ARRIVES "as a thief IN THE NIGHT"--and he names the "FIRST birth PANG [SINGULAR]" [1Th5:2] OF the many "birth PANGS [plural]" [Mt24] which will characterize "the Day of the Lord [time period--the "DARK" portion]" i.e. the 70th-Week/7-yrs (with its man of sin and ALL his doings)].

    [this is the same "order" I explained in the 2Th2 posts]


    The "destruction [G3639]" here referred to, means "ruination" not a sudden [physical-]death-type of "destruction" or obliteration. It is referring again to all that the "man of sin" will do DURING the unfolding of that time period leading UP TO Christ's 2nd Coming to the earth. His revealing is the moment in time when "the Day of the Lord" will be "PRESENT" [to then unfold upon the earth over the course of some time] (1st Seal [Jesus opens]--FIRST action which sets off the 70th-Week/7-yrs [Daniel 9:27a]--the FIRST birth "PANG [singular]" of many over the course of some time [the "in his time" of the "man of sin"])


    G3639 -

    3639 ólethros (from ollymi/"destroy") – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS). 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing."




    The first thing the "man of sin" (which I perceive to be the AC) DOES is to "confirm the covenant for ONE WEEK"... my guess is, the wrong one.

  7. #7
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    Re: 2 Thessalonians 2

    While Jesus gives the sequence of events which lead to his second coming in Matthew 24,Paul does the opposite way by beginning with Jesus' return,then moves on with events which are preceding to the second coming. We can call his writing method reverse chronology.

    Paul's begins with Jesus' second coming in 2 Thessalonians 3.

    Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come,

    That day is the second coming,a reference to the event he just mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10. He was quoting the second coming in Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    except there come a falling away first,

    Paul was quoting the event in Matthew 24:23-25 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25Behold, I have told you before. Many false Christs and false prophets shall arise ,showing great signs and wonders, who comes in Jesus' name,shall deceive many,even the elect. Paul calls this event falling away,or better known as apostasy.

    and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

    Paul was quoting the event in Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet,stand in the holy place, I believe he has some privilege knowledge to AOD,by detailing the man of sin sitting in the temple,declaring himself being God.

    Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming

    This is the most interesting part. Paul told Thessalonians that this man of sin cannot be revealed until he who now letteth (Greek word katechon,means restraining) will let (restrain),until he be taken out of the way. Through the century,it is the church with Holy Spirit indwelling on each individual,restraining the evil. So,what Paul is saying is,the restrainer the church needs to be taken out of the way,before the man of sin can be revealed.

    Paul is very explicit with the timing of the church taken out of the way. It should precede the arrival of man of sin. When we learn that the man of sin shall dominate events in 7 years tribulation,we also understand that the church will not be here to witness any of the events during tribulation.

    Paul has made himself quite clear that he affirms pre-tribulation rapture,by quoting Olivert Discourse backward,beginning with Jesus' second coming,working backward to the church being taken out of the way.

  8. #8
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    Re: 2 Thessalonians 2

    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndcoming View Post
    2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

    Let's start a discussion on it,to see if Paul is for pre-trib rapture or post-trib rapture.
    Paul teaches that the rapture is on the last day at the last trumpet

    1 Corr 15:51-52
    51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—52In a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

    The last trumpet is the 7th trumpet in Revelation and that happens on the judgement day the last day of our world

    Revelation 11:15-18
    The Seventh Trumpet

    15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

    “The kingdom of the world has become
    the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
    and he will reign for ever and ever.”

    16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:

    “We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
    the One who is and who was,
    because you have taken your great power
    and have begun to reign.
    18
    The nations were angry,
    and your wrath has come.
    The time has come for judging the dead,
    and for rewarding your servants the prophets
    and your people who revere your name,
    both great and small—
    and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

  9. #9
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    Re: 2 Thessalonians 2

    Because Paul, in 1 Cor. 15:52 and 1 Thes 4:16, said believers would be raptured at the sounding of a trump, many folks have tried to make it appear that the rapture trumps are the same trumpets found in Revelation 11:15-18, Joel 2:1, and Mat 24:31--which all occur during the tribulation.

    When you have trumpets commonly used throughout the Bible, I think wrong to just assume any two of the 62 trumps or trumpets are prophetically related. To be able to make the claim that the tribulation trumpet soundings are the same as the rapture trumps, you would need a direct statement saying this is the case.

    If your friend John said he went to his favorite restaurant last night, and another friend Larry said he also went to his favorite restaurant last night, is it logical for you to assume they both went to the same restaurant ? Obviously not, because even though John and Larry went to their favorite restaurants, they may have had two different eating establishments in mind. The same logic should apply with the word trumpet.

    Pre-wrath proponents say that the Seventh Trumpet blown in Rev 11:15-18 is the same last trump Paul spoke of in 1 Cor 15:52. However, they fail to take into account the fact that John wrote Revelation 40 years after Paul wrote his first epistle to the Corinthians. How could Paul refer to something that was not yet revealed?

    Post-tribbers use a trumpet sounding in Joel 2:1 as evidence for a post-trib rapture on the Day of the Lord. I have three problems with Joel 2:1:

    1. Joel clearly says that the purpose for blowing the trumpet is to "sound an alarm."

    2. According to 1 Cor 15:52, the rapture is something that occurs in the twinkling of an eye. Joel 2:1 says the Day of the Lord is nigh at hand. In order for Joel's trumpet to be the same one in 1 Cor. there would have to be a time delay between the sounding of the trumpet and the rapture of the Church.

    3. The fact that there is another trumpet being sounded in Joel 2:15 further clouds the possibility that these trumpets could have anything to do with the rapture.

    When Paul was writing to the Corinthians, he specifically said "the" last trump. During the Feast of Trumpets, the Jews blow short trumpet blasts. They end the feast with a long blast from what is called the last trump, which is blown the longest. Judaism has traditionally connected this last trump with the resurrection of the dead. Paul also made the connection. For many Christians, the association between the rapture and the Feast of Trumpets is so strong, they look for the rapture to someday occur on this feast.

    I think the "last trump" refers to Pentecost closing (Church age) Feast of Pentecost, and the Feast of Trumps coming in, which only announces things. They have no other purpose in Leviticus 23, except to announce that the Feast of Atonement and Tabernacle is on the way. This fits also with Revelation, the Seals are Announced by Jesus, the Trumps and Vials are announced by Angels. Israel is atoned, just like the 70th Week Decree of Daniel says must happen, and of course to Tabernacle means to dwell with God, and of course at the end, Israel dwell with God.

    The Spring Feasts of Passover, Unleavened bread and the First-fruits have already been fulfilled by Jesus. We are now in Pentecost (Church age), the Last Trump announces that the Church age is over and it is time to deal with Israels sin, they need atonement.

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    Re: 2 Thessalonians 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    Because Paul, in 1 Cor. 15:52 and 1 Thes 4:16, said believers would be raptured at the sounding of a trump, many folks have tried to make it appear that the rapture trumps are the same trumpets found in Revelation 11:15-18, Joel 2:1, and Mat 24:31--which all occur during the tribulation.

    When you have trumpets commonly used throughout the Bible, I think wrong to just assume any two of the 62 trumps or trumpets are prophetically related. To be able to make the claim that the tribulation trumpet soundings are the same as the rapture trumps, you would need a direct statement saying this is the case.

    If your friend John said he went to his favorite restaurant last night, and another friend Larry said he also went to his favorite restaurant last night, is it logical for you to assume they both went to the same restaurant ? Obviously not, because even though John and Larry went to their favorite restaurants, they may have had two different eating establishments in mind. The same logic should apply with the word trumpet.

    Pre-wrath proponents say that the Seventh Trumpet blown in Rev 11:15-18 is the same last trump Paul spoke of in 1 Cor 15:52. However, they fail to take into account the fact that John wrote Revelation 40 years after Paul wrote his first epistle to the Corinthians. How could Paul refer to something that was not yet revealed?

    Post-tribbers use a trumpet sounding in Joel 2:1 as evidence for a post-trib rapture on the Day of the Lord. I have three problems with Joel 2:1:

    1. Joel clearly says that the purpose for blowing the trumpet is to "sound an alarm."

    2. According to 1 Cor 15:52, the rapture is something that occurs in the twinkling of an eye. Joel 2:1 says the Day of the Lord is nigh at hand. In order for Joel's trumpet to be the same one in 1 Cor. there would have to be a time delay between the sounding of the trumpet and the rapture of the Church.

    3. The fact that there is another trumpet being sounded in Joel 2:15 further clouds the possibility that these trumpets could have anything to do with the rapture.

    When Paul was writing to the Corinthians, he specifically said "the" last trump. During the Feast of Trumpets, the Jews blow short trumpet blasts. They end the feast with a long blast from what is called the last trump, which is blown the longest. Judaism has traditionally connected this last trump with the resurrection of the dead. Paul also made the connection. For many Christians, the association between the rapture and the Feast of Trumpets is so strong, they look for the rapture to someday occur on this feast.

    I think the "last trump" refers to Pentecost closing (Church age) Feast of Pentecost, and the Feast of Trumps coming in, which only announces things. They have no other purpose in Leviticus 23, except to announce that the Feast of Atonement and Tabernacle is on the way. This fits also with Revelation, the Seals are Announced by Jesus, the Trumps and Vials are announced by Angels. Israel is atoned, just like the 70th Week Decree of Daniel says must happen, and of course to Tabernacle means to dwell with God, and of course at the end, Israel dwell with God.

    The Spring Feasts of Passover, Unleavened bread and the First-fruits have already been fulfilled by Jesus. We are now in Pentecost (Church age), the Last Trump announces that the Church age is over and it is time to deal with Israels sin, they need atonement.
    The very last trumpet is the 7th trumpet in revelation 7 means completeness to God. Paul knew what that would be as he was shown many things when he was taken up to heaven that's why he had so much wisdom and knew of a rapture.

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    Re: 2 Thessalonians 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    Even if Apostisia means a Departure of the faith (I have grave doubts) then that in no wise would stop the pre-tribulation rapture. If their is an apostasy of the church, I don't see how the true church can fall away...nevertheless, if it is an apostasy, then the Rapture can still happen, before the Tribulation, and before the Man of Sin is Revealed, for it is The Day of the Lord that is being spoken of as coming AFTER the Man of Sin is Revealed, and Christians should know, the Day of the Lord is not the Rapture. The Day of the Lord is about judgment and wrath. But I have read an article recently that makes me think a little different.

    A New Insight ( Dr. David Reagan )

    But recently, my thinking about 2 Thessalonians 2:3 has changed — all because of an outstanding presentation on the subject that I heard Tommy Ice make at a conference where the two of us were speaking.

    For those of you who may not be familiar with Tommy Ice, he is a biblical scholar who graduated from Dallas Theological Seminary and who serves as the Director of the Pre-Trib Research Center (www.pre-trib.org).

    Tommy pointed out that the Greek noun, apostasia, is used only twice in the New Testament. The other occurrence is in Acts 21:21 where it states that an accusation was made against Paul that he was “teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake [apostasia] Moses.”

    The word is used in verb form a total of 15 times in the New Testament, and only three of these have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and Hebrews 3:12). In other settings, the word is used for departing from inquity (2 Timothy 2:19), departing from ungodly men (1 Timothy 6:5), departing from the temple (Luke 2:27), departing from the body (2 Corinthians 12:8), and departing from persons (Acts 12:10 and Luke 4:13).

    This insight about the use and meaning of the word was certainly compelling, but the argument Tommy presented that was most convicting to me was his revelation that the first seven English translations of the Bible rendered the noun, apostasia, as either “departure” or “departing.” They were as follows:1

    The Wycliffe Bible (1384)
    The Tyndale Bible (1526)
    The Coverdale Bible (1535)
    The Cranmer Bible (1539)
    The Great Bible (1540)
    The Beeches Bible (1576)
    The Geneva Bible (1608)
    Tommy also noted that the Bible used by the Western world from 400 AD to the 1500s — Jerome’s Latin translation known as “The Vulgate” — rendered apostasia with the Latin word, discessio, which means “departure.”

    The first translation of the word to mean apostasy in an English Bible did not occur until 1611 when the King James Version was issued. So, why did the King James translators introduce a completely new rendering of the word as “falling away”? The best guess is that they were taking a stab at the false teachings of Catholicism.

    One other point Tommy Ice made that I thought was significant is that Paul used a definite article with the word apostasia. The significance of this is emphasized by Daniel Davey in a thesis he wrote for the Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary:2

    Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article, reference is being made to something in particular. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure clearly known to the Thessalonian church.
    In light of this grammatical point, Tommy observed that “the use of the definite article would support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernable notion.”3 And that notion he had already identified in verse 1 when he stated that he was writing about “our gathering together to Him [Jesus].”

    This interpretation also corresponds to the point that Paul makes in verses 6 and 7 where he states that the man of lawlessness will not come until what “restrains” him “is taken out of the way.”

    And what it is that restrains evil in the world today? The Holy Spirit working through the Church.
    The falling away in 2 Thessalonians 2 is the same event Paul quoted from Matthew 24:23-25.Paul wrote his thought in 2 Thessalonians 2 based on his knowledge from Matthew 24,except he went backward.

  12. #12

    Re: 2 Thessalonians 2

    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndcoming View Post
    The falling away in 2 Thessalonians 2 is the same event Paul quoted from Matthew 24:23-25.Paul wrote his thought in 2 Thessalonians 2 based on his knowledge from Matthew 24,except he went backward.
    Not exactly. [the kjv's interpretation: "a falling away" is a just that, a (lousy) "interpretation"... NOT a "translation"]

    The thing you are pointing out in Matthew 24:23-25 [occurring IN the time period known as "the Day of the Lord"/70th-Week/7-yrs] corresponds more with what 2 Thessalonians 2:9-11,4 [and other passages] (by the man of sin and associates, and so forth--"whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness among them that perish...")

    ... whereas verses 2-3 (2Th2:2-3) is referring to "THE Departure FIRST" (BEFORE THAT PERIOD of time can even BE "PRESENT" here to unfold upon the earth [with its "man of sin" and all his doings]).



    1) "THE Departure FIRST" [this is our departure [noun], for THE MEETING [noun] the Lord IN THE AIR]

    2) consequently [^ #1 "FIRST"], THEN "the Day of the Lord [time period]" can be "PRESENT" to unfold upon the earth (with its "man of sin" and the "deceivable" things he DOES over the course of some time--matching the Olivet Discourse passages which is referring to that same time period [the years leading UP TO Christ's 2nd Coming to the earth])

  13. #13
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    Re: 2 Thessalonians 2

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Paul teaches that the rapture is on the last day at the last trumpet

    1 Corr 15:51-52
    51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—52In a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

    The last trumpet is the 7th trumpet in Revelation and that happens on the judgement day the last day of our world

    Revelation 11:15-18
    The Seventh Trumpet

    15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

    “The kingdom of the world has become
    the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
    and he will reign for ever and ever.”

    16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:

    “We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
    the One who is and who was,
    because you have taken your great power
    and have begun to reign.
    18
    The nations were angry,
    and your wrath has come.
    The time has come for judging the dead,
    and for rewarding your servants the prophets
    and your people who revere your name,
    both great and small—
    and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

    Nope,the last trumpet is not the seventh trumpet. Paul says it is God's trump.

    1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

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    Re: 2 Thessalonians 2

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    The very last trumpet is the 7th trumpet in revelation 7 means completeness to God. Paul knew what that would be as he was shown many things when he was taken up to heaven that's why he had so much wisdom and knew of a rapture.
    No it is not. After the Trump comes the Vials. The last Trump signals that the Feast of Pentecost is over, and that the Feast of Atonement is nigh at hand.

    Feast of Passover = fulfilled (Blood)
    Feast of Unleavened bread = fulfilled (No Sin)
    Feast of First-fruits = fulfilled (Defeated Death)

    Separation...Or the Pause in Daniels 70 weeks.
    Feast of Pentecost = being fulfilled as we speak, the sowing of the Field to yield the Harvest.

    The Feast of Trumps = the shofar is blown, announcing the coming of the Feasts of atonement and Tabernacle. Calling the Church to Heaven.
    The Feast of Atonement = Daniel laid out six things that must happen before the 70 Week Prophecy was fulfilled, Israels Atonement was one of these things.
    The Feast of Tabernacle = mishkan 4908, to dwell with God, Jesus will reign for 1000 years in everlasting Righteousness.

    Daniels Six Musts before the 70 Weeks or 70 Sevens Prophecy is fulfilled.
    1. Finish the transgression (Or Revolt against God)
    2. Make and end of sins (To stop sinning daily, this must mean the 1000 year Reign has come)
    3. To make reconciliation for iniquity (Atonement for Sins)
    4. Bring in everlasting righteousness (Jesus' rule is everlating Righteosness)
    5. To seal up vision and prophecy ( Once Jesus starts ruling, all prophecy will have been fulfilled)
    6. Anoint the most Holy (Jesus will be anointed as King of Kings and Lord of Lords )

    The 7 Trumpets can not mean completeness, because the Seven Vials are yet to come as per Gods wrath.

  15. #15
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    Re: 2 Thessalonians 2

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    YES!

    (I've posted that before too, from another author, same thing [Ice quotes him somewhere])...

    and you may never believe this, but while I had to go on an errand (between my last post and this one), I had prayed that the Lord would send another poster to post that very idea ^ (because of the fact of my fingers falling off [mentioned before], and the fact that I was hindered from searching for my other past posts on this subject [also mentioned before] due to this interruption-errand.)

    ... the Lord has LITERALLY answered my prayer! [<---why is this guy called "rapture"?? lol]



    Thank you, brother RM, for being God's answer to my specific prayer.
    We Blood Brothers...In Jesus

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