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Thread: 2 Thessalonians 2

  1. #166

    Re: 2 Thessalonians 2

    [QUOTE=2ndcoming;3327074]
    Gabriel only prophesied Messiah got cut off after 69 week,not 69.5 week.
    Not significantly different. I could say, after two more years I will come back to England. That doesn't address how many months past two years it will take for me to return to England. If I return to England in two years and two months I will *still* be coming after *two years!*

    It is the same with this prophecy. Messiah is cut off after 69 weeks. But it does not address precisely how far into the 70th week it will be until Messiah is actually cut off--we are only assured that it will be *after* 69 weeks, and less than 70 weeks.


    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndcoming
    There is nowhere Jesus' death is found in this scripture."he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" doesn't point to Jesus' death. It's only your conjecture.
    Of course it is conjecture--just as much as your view is. You see, this prophecy is not as simple as you would like! The idea that Jesus' death meant the end of sacrifices under the Law, however, is thoroughly Scriptural.


    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndcoming
    And the real meaning of Jesus' death on the cross is not to abolish their sacrificial system.His death is to establish a blood covenant with us which is to atone all sin. Read Matthew 26:28.
    When Jesus said he did not come to destroy the Law, but to fulfil it, he was referring to his earthly ministry. The Law continued in effect during his earthly ministry. It was at the cross that the Law was abolished. So I disagree with you. Jesus' cross was indeed intended to abolish the Law and its sacrifices. It was every bit as much judgment against Israel's sacrificial system as it was when God sent Nebuchadnezzar to Jerusalem to destroy the temple of Solomon!


    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndcoming
    Jesus came to establish a new covenant with us. He didn't come to confirm and strengthen any of the existing old covenant God has with the Jews. His new covenant is his blood shed for us on the cross. Again,you are reading too much into their old law.
    Mat 5.17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

    This is evidence that Jesus came to *confirm* the Law and the Prophets.


    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndcoming
    The "he" in verse 27 cannot be Jesus because Jesus already got cut off after 69 weeks. He has ascended to heaven since.
    It's called a *recapitulation.* The sequence is repeated twice, as is a typical literary form in the Hebrew Scriptures. Here is the sequence...
    1) Messiah is cut off
    2) The Roman Army will destroy Jerusalem and the temple
    Repeated sequence...
    1) Messiah confirms a covenant in the middle of the last week
    2) Jerusalem is desolated


    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndcoming
    1/ Messiah got cut off after 69 week which has taken place in 32 AD.
    2/ The people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and sanctuary. This event has been fulfilled in 70 AD.
    3/ And unto the war (the war in 70 AD) desolation has been determined. This has already been taken place between 70 AD and 1948 AD with the land laid waste and desolate for 1878 years.
    We don't have a whole lot of disagreement here. I think we should do better focusing on our agreements, rather than on our disagreements?
    1) We agree that Christ got "cut off" somewhere at the close of the 70 weeks period.
    2) We agree that the desolation of Jerusalem took place in 70 AD.
    3) We agree that the continuing great tribulation of the Jews continued after the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem.

    I actually believe that the great tribulation of the Jews continues up until Christ's return because it said that the "times of the Gentiles" will be completed only at that time. It is immediately "after the tribulation of those days" that the sign of Christ's coming will appear in the sky. So even though Israel is somewhat restored as a nation-state she is still not "out of the woods." It will not be until Christ returns that the full national restoration will take place, I believe.


    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndcoming
    The 70th week is still in future and waiting for it's fulfillment. You can't have 70th week immediately follow 69th week because there are two events (2 & 3) separating them.
    I used to believe this, but I had to finally reject it because it is so illogical! To predict that something will happen after approx. 490 years is not remotely close to saying something will happen after 490 plus 2000 years!


    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndcoming
    The blood covenant Jesus made with us is eternal. What are you talking about when he is intended to last the blood covenant for 7 years only?
    No, I'm saying that Jesus, during his 3.5 years ministry, *confirmed* the covenant of Law, and *confirmed* that he came to be its ultimate fulfillment, the Messiah of Israel. This was purely a half-week, and not an entire 7 years week!


    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndcoming
    I think if you take Christ out from verse 27, and realize the "he" is Anti Christ,and recognizing there are gap between 69th and 70th week,it should help you to understand better.
    No, I think "he" refers to Christ, because Christ is mentioned immediately prior to that. Otherwise, "he" is a nameless pronoun attaching to nothing! "He" cannot refer to the "prince of the people to come" because there the emphasis is not on the "prince" but on the "people to come." So the previous mention is the "Anointed One," Christ Jesus. It cannot refer to Antichrist because he had not been previously mentioned. To just suddenly use a pronoun without any prior identification is meaningless!

  2. #167

    Re: 2 Thessalonians 2

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    My answer is no, not yes. The covenant is not broken by the sacrifice of Jesus. The covenant was between God and Jews to send them a Messiah for their exclusive salvation. This was fulfilled for 3.5 years and will be completed for 3.5 years. In the meantime Jesus remains Messiah and so there is no covenant broken, merely an interruption of the exclusivity of the JEWISH TIMELINE.

    In Daniel 12 there is a reference to "time"... looking at Hebrew, this can mean a long period of time, like an age, or a season.

    ďAnd from the SEASON (starting with) that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and (ending with) the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be (a further) one thousand two hundred and ninety days.

    In Hebrew one often has to infer the joining words, so there is flexibility in the sentence. Read the sentence again, but with this long Gentile gap/season in mind:
    ďAnd from the SEASON that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.
    What covenant specifies that Jew would send them a messiah? Are you referring to the Dan 9 prophecy? That implies that they will know where there are within the specifics laid out in that prophecy. How can that day come like a thief, if they know where they are within that prophecy?

    A covenant implies that both sides are compliant with the terms. The jews rejected all signs during his ministry that he was their king and Messiah. What did Jesus do that confirmed the covenant 3.5 years before his crucifixion? Again I say, they did not believe anything that confirmed that he was their king. Confirmed to who? If anything confirmed that covenant it was the baptism of John. But they didn't believe anything that Jesus did, not even his baptism.
    Blessings to all who keepeth the sayings and the prophecy of HIS book!
    GB

  3. #168
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    Re: 2 Thessalonians 2

    Quote Originally Posted by goldenboy View Post
    What covenant specifies that Jew would send them a messiah? Are you referring to the Dan 9 prophecy? That implies that they will know where there are within the specifics laid out in that prophecy. How can that day come like a thief, if they know where they are within that prophecy?

    A covenant implies that both sides are compliant with the terms. The jews rejected all signs during his ministry that he was their king and Messiah. What did Jesus do that confirmed the covenant 3.5 years before his crucifixion? Again I say, they did not believe anything that confirmed that he was their king. Confirmed to who? If anything confirmed that covenant it was the baptism of John. But they didn't believe anything that Jesus did, not even his baptism.
    Blessings to all who keepeth the sayings and the prophecy of HIS book!
    GB
    The Hebrew word does not necessarily refer to a covenant. It can be a pledge as well, a one way promise from one to another. Yes Jesus was not widely accepted as Messiah by Israel. But his presence did confirm the pledge that God made to Israel to send them a Messiah. This Messiah was prophesied many times in the OT. Even the same Daniel 9 makes reference to it in verse 25:
    That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem
    Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks

    You see that? God promised Israel an anointed ruler. Jesus confirmed this promise by starting his ministry to the Jews when he was anointed in the River Jordan. Even at Nazareth he publicly quoted from Isaiah, which also promised this anointed ruler.

  4. #169

    Re: 2 Thessalonians 2

    Sorry to play the Devils advocate, just trying to get toy to see that it is Abrahams covenant of the land that God has promised to them. It will be the restoration of sacrifices that will confirm his covenant with them concerning the land. The sacrifices will resume and 1290 days later they will cease to be offered. They will cease in the middle of the week. The 1290 day period can only be calculated by either adding or subtracting 1290 to the time in which they cease. Sacrifices ceasing is a definite endpoint to counting the 1290 days.
    You need to read Leviticus 26 to see both covenants in play, the Abrahamic and that of the law!
    Blessings to all who keepeth the sayings and the prophecy of HIS book!
    GB

  5. #170
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    Re: 2 Thessalonians 2

    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndcoming View Post
    2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

    Let's start a discussion on it,to see if Paul is for pre-trib rapture or post-trib rapture.
    It all boils down to what you call "tribulation." Christians have been in tribulation since day one. The great tribulation of the end is another matter and it doesn't have anything to do with some man of sin.

    See what Paul wrote just a few verses earlier. (The chapter breaks were added later)

    2 Thess 1:6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

  6. #171
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    Re: 2 Thessalonians 2

    Folks, some of the rhetoric in this thread is getting personal and ugly at times--which is against the rules of conduct that every member agreed to when they signed up. When discussing doctrinal differences, we can certainly disagree with a person's point of view without suggesting that he or she is in league with the Devil, can we not? You are free to challenge a brother's doctrine with Scripture, but keep the personal remarks out of it. As a reminder, to avoid possible corrective action, the following guidelines should be kept in mind at all times when posting at Bibleforums:

    III. Conduct

    As this is a Christian message board, conduct becoming a Christian is what is expected. We all come from different backgrounds and convictions and each member has their own different personalities and style of communicating through the written word. Remember first and foremost that we come together because of Christ and stand under Him and are accountable in all you say and do. We do not have to agree but allow anothers disagreement to drive you into the Word for answers. Nobody has all the answers, and even in debates with gusto and passion remember that we cannot find the bottom of the knowledge of God in the flesh. We are called into fellowship in order to share, uplift and grow in our shared faith. Name calling, belittling, cutting down anothers beliefs, sour attitude or general conduct not becoming a brother or sister in the faith will not be tolerated. Keep your words well salted, in love and centered in the Light.

    When we stand before the Judgment Seat, we will have retained only two things from our earthly life: what God gave us, and what we did with what He gave us.

  7. #172
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    Re: 2 Thessalonians 2

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post

    Not significantly different. I could say, after two more years I will come back to England. That doesn't address how many months past two years it will take for me to return to England. If I return to England in two years and two months I will *still* be coming after *two years!*

    It is the same with this prophecy. Messiah is cut off after 69 weeks. But it does not address precisely how far into the 70th week it will be until Messiah is actually cut off--we are only assured that it will be *after* 69 weeks, and less than 70 weeks.

    God is a precise God. If he intends Messiah's death take place in the 70th week,he could have said so in verse 27. But since he did not mention Messiah's death in that verse ,then you can't force your conjecture and your supposition into it. Messiah's cut off is after the 69 week,or simply put,between the 69th week and 70th week.Let's be clear about that.

    Of course it is conjecture--just as much as your view is. You see, this prophecy is not as simple as you would like! The idea that Jesus' death meant the end of sacrifices under the Law, however, is thoroughly Scriptural.

    Conjecture has no part in studying God's word. Let's stick to the context and God's intention in seventy week prophecy.

    When Jesus said he did not come to destroy the Law, but to fulfil it, he was referring to his earthly ministry. The Law continued in effect during his earthly ministry. It was at the cross that the Law was abolished. So I disagree with you. Jesus' cross was indeed intended to abolish the Law and its sacrifices. It was every bit as much judgment against Israel's sacrificial system as it was when God sent Nebuchadnezzar to Jerusalem to destroy the temple of Solomon
    !

    You have a wrong interpretation of Matthew 5:17,and Jesus' motive when he says those thing. I have attached a commentary from Grace Communion International.

    Quote [ First, we see that Jesus spoke of "the Law and the Prophets" as not being abolished. What did he mean by this phrase? The "Law and the Prophets" was a regular expression Jews of Jesus’ day used to refer to the entire Old Testament. (See Matthew 7:12; 22:40; Acts 24:14; 28:23; Romans 3:21.) The Old Testament comprises the Holy Scriptures or the sacred writings of the Jewish faith. It was through these writings that Jews thought they could understand the will of God and have eternal life (John 5:39, 45).

    What Jesus said, then, was the Old Testament as a body of "God-breathed" literature would not be set aside or abolished. His concern was not specifically the Sabbath or the Ten Commandments. It was the entire Old Testament.

    "To fulfill them"

    Jesus also said he came not to abolish the Law or the Prophets, that is, the Holy Scriptures, but to "fulfill them" (Matthew 5:17). We should notice that Jesus did not tell Christians to "fulfill" these Scriptures down to the smallest letter and least stroke of a pen. He said he came to fulfill the Holy Scriptures.

    What did he mean by this? The Greek word for "fulfill" isplerosai. According to Greek scholars, the nuance and meaning of this word is difficult to express in English, and several possibilities have been offered. These are summarized by four options:

    1 Jesus came to accomplish or obey the Holy Scriptures,
    2 to bring out the full meaning of the Holy Scriptures,
    3 to bring those Scriptures to their intended completion,
    4 to emphasize that the Scriptures point to him as Messiah and are fulfilled in his salvation work.

    After reviewing several ways of looking at the word "fulfill," the Expositor’s Commentary on Matthew concluded by saying: "The best interpretation of these difficult verses says that Jesus fulfills the Law and the Prophets in that they point to him, and he is their fulfillment. The antithesis is not between ‘abolish’ and ‘keep’ but between ‘abolish’ and ‘fulfill’" (page 143).

    Let’s see how this possibility works out. It is certainly a proper understanding of Jesus’ intent to say that he came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets in himself—in his life and salvation work, and that the Scriptures pointed to him.

    The book of Matthew was written to prove from the Jewish Scriptures that Jesus fulfilled the requirements of messiahship. Matthew often said Jesus acted "to fulfill" what was said through one prophet or another (Matthew 1:22; 2:5, 15, 17, 23; 4:14; 8:17, etc.). One can read through the book of Matthew and note all the times that a reference is made to the Old Testament as being fulfilled in Jesus. It is surprising, indeed.

    Jesus said in Matthew 3:15 that "all righteousness" should be fulfilled in his actions. Luke 24:25-27, 44-45 and John 5:39-47 are also instructive on this point. These verses show that Jesus was interested in showing how the Hebrew Scriptures had himself as their object. He was the Messiah of whom all the Jewish holy writings had spoken of.

    The Tyndale New Testament Commentary on Matthew offers another view of "fulfill." It emphasizes that Jesus was bringing the meaning of the Scriptures to their intended completion. It says: "Jesus is bringing that to which the Old Testament looked forward; his teaching will transcend the Old Testament revelation, but, far from abolishing it, is itself its intended culmination" (page 114). ]

    Now you should see the true meaning Jesus is intended in Matthew 5:17. This is not an establishment of his covenant with us. Paul went further in Hebrew 8.

    The new covenant replacing the old covenant


    Hebrew 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

    8For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

    9Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

    10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

    11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

    12For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

    13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

    The old tabernacle faded away

    Hebrew 9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. 2For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary. 3And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all; 4Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant; 5And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.

    6Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God. 7But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people: 8The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: 9Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; 10Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

    Redemption through His blood

    11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

    15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. 18Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. 19For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, 20Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. 21Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. 22And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

    23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.


    When is the new covenant established? It is established on the cross,not at the beginning of Jesus' ministry.

    Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.


    Mat 5.17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

    This is evidence that Jesus came to *confirm* the Law and the Prophets.
    Read my comment above.

    It's called a *recapitulation.* The sequence is repeated twice, as is a typical literary form in the Hebrew Scriptures. Here is the sequence...
    1) Messiah is cut off
    2) The Roman Army will destroy Jerusalem and the temple
    Repeated sequence...
    1) Messiah confirms a covenant in the middle of the last week
    2) Jerusalem is desolated
    I began to see the confusion in you. You say Messiah come to confirm the covenant with many for one week.But now you are saying Messiah come to confirm a covenant with many in the middle of the last week. Only by sticking to the true intent of God's word in those verses,confusion cannot come.


    We don't have a whole lot of disagreement here. I think we should do better focusing on our agreements, rather than on our disagreements?
    1) We agree that Christ got "cut off" somewhere at the close of the 70 weeks period.
    2) We agree that the desolation of Jerusalem took place in 70 AD.
    3) We agree that the continuing great tribulation of the Jews continued after the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem.

    I actually believe that the great tribulation of the Jews continues up until Christ's return because it said that the "times of the Gentiles" will be completed only at that time. It is immediately "after the tribulation of those days" that the sign of Christ's coming will appear in the sky. So even though Israel is somewhat restored as a nation-state she is still not "out of the woods." It will not be until Christ returns that the full national restoration will take place, I believe.


    We do have a lot of disagreement,especially with your statement #3. I don't believe the tribulation refers to the period after 70 AD. Tribulation is referred to the tribulation in the last 7 years,while Great Tribulation refers to the times of Jacob's trouble in Jeremiah 30:7.And the times of gentiles in Luke 21:24 points to the second half of tribulation,when they are given into the hands of gentiles. Or to be more exact,the 42 months in Revelation 11:2.

    I used to believe this, but I had to finally reject it because it is so illogical! To predict that something will happen after approx. 490 years is not remotely close to saying something will happen after 490 plus 2000 years!

    So,because you think it is out of your comprehension,you have to force the entire 490 years being fulfilled up to Messiah's death on the cross?

    What logic is this just because you can't understand? Then what about the verse that speaks of abomination overspreading that he shall make it desolate. What's your take on this event? I have to caution you that Jesus has spoken this event in Olivert Discourse. He forth warned the Jews when they see this event,they need to flee right away. If you claim that the AOD refers to Jesus, why would Jesus warn them to flee when they see him?

    No, I'm saying that Jesus, during his 3.5 years ministry, *confirmed* the covenant of Law, and *confirmed* that he came to be its ultimate fulfillment, the Messiah of Israel. This was purely a half-week, and not an entire 7 years week!
    Jesus didn't confirm the covenant of Law. For Matthew 5:17 real meaning,read my above comment again. You need to be more clear about what covenant means. It is a contract,an agreement that God makes with us. The contract is written on the day of crucifixion,on the cross. Only through his blood can we be saved, not by following the Law.

    No, I think "he" refers to Christ, because Christ is mentioned immediately prior to that. Otherwise, "he" is a nameless pronoun attaching to nothing! "He" cannot refer to the "prince of the people to come" because there the emphasis is not on the "prince" but on the "people to come." So the previous mention is the "Anointed One," Christ Jesus. It cannot refer to Antichrist because he had not been previously mentioned. To just suddenly use a pronoun without any prior identification is meaningless!
    The prince to come is added there to take notice.And that prince is immediately followed by the "he" in verse 27. Messiah is cut off in verse 26 after 69 weeks. Messiah has no further role in verse 27.

  8. #173

    Re: 2 Thessalonians 2

    [QUOTE=2ndcoming;3327344]
    God is a precise God. If he intends Messiah's death take place in the 70th week,he could have said so in verse 27. But since he did not mention Messiah's death in that verse ,then you can't force your conjecture and your supposition into it. Messiah's cut off is after the 69 week,or simply put,between the 69th week and 70th week.Let's be clear about that.
    It is clear that Messiah was to come after the 69th week. That is true in my scenario. It is not imprecise.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndcoming
    Conjecture has no part in studying God's word.
    I don't agree. Reasoned conjecture is a big part of studying God's word. "Come now, let us reason together," says the Lord.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndcoming
    You have a wrong interpretation of Matthew 5:17,and Jesus' motive when he says those thing. I have attached a commentary from Grace Communion International.
    It's a good commentary, but I don't see where the quote ends and your own comments begin? I'm not sure it dismisses my views either.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndcoming
    Now you should see the true meaning Jesus is intended in Matthew 5:17. This is not an establishment of his covenant with us.
    I disagree. I agree with everything the commentators say about Jesus being the fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets. Since the Law was a covenant, Jesus confirmed the efficacy of that covenant in himself as the fulfillment of that covenant. Even if you refer to the Law and the Prophets as the entirety of OT Scriptures the covenant of the Law is still a part of those Scriptures. Jesus therefore confirmed both the Scriptures and their covenants.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndcoming
    I began to see the confusion in you. You say Messiah come to confirm the covenant with many for one week.But now you are saying Messiah come to confirm a covenant with many in the middle of the last week. Only by sticking to the true intent of God's word in those verses,confusion cannot come.
    You apparently don't understand my view. I see Christ as confirming a covenant in the 70th Week--as a half-week. Jesus' ministry, which apparently lasted about 3.5 years, was itself a confirmation of the covenant of Law, as well as a confirmation of the covenant of Promise. His death at the end of the 3.5 years completed that confirmation and ended sacrifice and offering under the Law.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndcoming
    We do have a lot of disagreement,especially with your statement #3. I don't believe the tribulation refers to the period after 70 AD. Tribulation is referred to the tribulation in the last 7 years,while Great Tribulation refers to the times of Jacob's trouble in Jeremiah 30:7.And the times of gentiles in Luke 21:24 points to the second half of tribulation,when they are given into the hands of gentiles. Or to be more exact,the 42 months in Revelation 11:2.
    I guess we truly do have a lot of disagreement on the Tribulation. For me the Great Tribulation is an age-long Jewish experience of exile and frustration, falling short of their promises. It began in the period of the 1st Jewish War, in about 66 AD. "Jacob's Trouble" may have had an ancient historic fulfillment, and not have anything to do with the final tribulation of the Jews at all. The tribulation of the Jews at the end of this age will probably involve the reign of Antichrist and his resistance to Jewish fulfillment. I don't believe either the tribulation at the end of the age or the reign of Antichrist will last 7 years. Antichrist will rule only 3.5 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndcoming
    So,because you think it is out of your comprehension,you have to force the entire 490 years being fulfilled up to Messiah's death on the cross?
    If the Scriptures say these things will be fulfilled after 490 years, or 70 weeks, then yes it is beyond my comprehension to imagine that God meant to say 490 years plus 2000 years! That would make God's statement illogical or incomprehensible.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndcoming
    What logic is this just because you can't understand? Then what about the verse that speaks of abomination overspreading that he shall make it desolate. What's your take on this event? I have to caution you that Jesus has spoken this event in Olivert Discourse. He forth warned the Jews when they see this event,they need to flee right away. If you claim that the AOD refers to Jesus, why would Jesus warn them to flee when they see him?
    We are definitely not on the same page! I don't believe the AOD refers to Jesus! The AOD is the Roman Army! One version in Dan 9 refers to the "overspreading of abominations." I believe the "abomination that causes desolation" refers to the Roman Army being set up in the holy city, in Jerusalem. Some versions seem to indicate that the prince of this Roman invasion comes "on the wing of abominations." At any rate, the Roman Army was an "abomination" to the Jews. And the purpose of this Roman Army was to destroy Jerusalem and the temple, as Dan 9 indicates.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndcoming
    Jesus didn't confirm the covenant of Law.
    Jesus confirmed that he was the fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets. The period of the Law led up to John the Baptist, the predecessor of Jesus. And Jesus brought near the Kingdom of God, because in his words were the words of eternal life. That *is* the Kingdom of God, which is already near through his 1st coming, and will be brought to earth at his 2nd coming.

    Luke 16.16 The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing their way into it.

    Luke 24.44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."

    Rom 3.21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

    That Jesus *confirmed* the Law and the Prophets is seen here...

    Rom 15.8 For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God’s truth, so that the promises made to the patriarchs might be confirmed.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndcoming
    The prince to come is added there to take notice.And that prince is immediately followed by the "he" in verse 27. Messiah is cut off in verse 26 after 69 weeks. Messiah has no further role in verse 27.
    You're entitled to your opinion. I've given you mine.

  9. #174
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    Re: 2 Thessalonians 2

    [QUOTE=randyk;3327391]
    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndcoming View Post

    It is clear that Messiah was to come after the 69th week. That is true in my scenario. It is not imprecise.



    I don't agree. Reasoned conjecture is a big part of studying God's word. "Come now, let us reason together," says the Lord.



    It's a good commentary, but I don't see where the quote ends and your own comments begin? I'm not sure it dismisses my views either.



    I disagree. I agree with everything the commentators say about Jesus being the fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets. Since the Law was a covenant, Jesus confirmed the efficacy of that covenant in himself as the fulfillment of that covenant. Even if you refer to the Law and the Prophets as the entirety of OT Scriptures the covenant of the Law is still a part of those Scriptures. Jesus therefore confirmed both the Scriptures and their covenants.



    You apparently don't understand my view. I see Christ as confirming a covenant in the 70th Week--as a half-week. Jesus' ministry, which apparently lasted about 3.5 years, was itself a confirmation of the covenant of Law, as well as a confirmation of the covenant of Promise. His death at the end of the 3.5 years completed that confirmation and ended sacrifice and offering under the Law.



    I guess we truly do have a lot of disagreement on the Tribulation. For me the Great Tribulation is an age-long Jewish experience of exile and frustration, falling short of their promises. It began in the period of the 1st Jewish War, in about 66 AD. "Jacob's Trouble" may have had an ancient historic fulfillment, and not have anything to do with the final tribulation of the Jews at all. The tribulation of the Jews at the end of this age will probably involve the reign of Antichrist and his resistance to Jewish fulfillment. I don't believe either the tribulation at the end of the age or the reign of Antichrist will last 7 years. Antichrist will rule only 3.5 years.



    If the Scriptures say these things will be fulfilled after 490 years, or 70 weeks, then yes it is beyond my comprehension to imagine that God meant to say 490 years plus 2000 years! That would make God's statement illogical or incomprehensible.



    We are definitely not on the same page! I don't believe the AOD refers to Jesus! The AOD is the Roman Army! One version in Dan 9 refers to the "overspreading of abominations." I believe the "abomination that causes desolation" refers to the Roman Army being set up in the holy city, in Jerusalem. Some versions seem to indicate that the prince of this Roman invasion comes "on the wing of abominations." At any rate, the Roman Army was an "abomination" to the Jews. And the purpose of this Roman Army was to destroy Jerusalem and the temple, as Dan 9 indicates.



    Jesus confirmed that he was the fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets. The period of the Law led up to John the Baptist, the predecessor of Jesus. And Jesus brought near the Kingdom of God, because in his words were the words of eternal life. That *is* the Kingdom of God, which is already near through his 1st coming, and will be brought to earth at his 2nd coming.

    Luke 16.16 The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing their way into it.

    Luke 24.44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."

    Rom 3.21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

    That Jesus *confirmed* the Law and the Prophets is seen here...

    Rom 15.8 For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God’s truth, so that the promises made to the patriarchs might be confirmed.



    You're entitled to your opinion. I've given you mine.
    After a long discussion with you,I have a question for you. Are you Herbert Armstrong followers who believe in obeying Ten Commandment and observing Sabbath Law? You gave me this impression since you showed yourself that you are a strong advocate of quoting Matthew 5:17 which Armstrong also teaches,and relating Jesus' ministry to fulfilling their Law.

  10. #175
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    Re: 2 Thessalonians 2

    Quote Originally Posted by goldenboy View Post
    Sorry to play the Devils advocate, just trying to get toy to see that it is Abrahams covenant of the land that God has promised to them. It will be the restoration of sacrifices that will confirm his covenant with them concerning the land. The sacrifices will resume and 1290 days later they will cease to be offered. They will cease in the middle of the week. The 1290 day period can only be calculated by either adding or subtracting 1290 to the time in which they cease. Sacrifices ceasing is a definite endpoint to counting the 1290 days.
    You need to read Leviticus 26 to see both covenants in play, the Abrahamic and that of the law!
    Blessings to all who keepeth the sayings and the prophecy of HIS book!
    GB
    God made many promises to Jews. Yes Abraham's covenant exists, but one of the greatest promises that
    God made to Israel is the promised anointed ruler (Messiah). My view in context is more likely than your view, especially since Jesus, at the perfect moment did actually appear to Israel as their Messiah, whether recognised or not. Due to the fact that Daniel 9 refers to this promise earlier in verse 25, this is the most likely promise of verse 27. I see no reason to focus on some other great promise to Israel when context points to the coming anointed ruler.

    Merely to espouse your view, is not enough to refute my view, which was already fulfilled in the correct timing. You need more ammunition than a mere alternative view to refute my view which also does fit the text, and is a proven fulfilment due to the fact it already happened.

  11. #176

    Re: 2 Thessalonians 2

    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndcoming View Post
    2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

    Let's start a discussion on it,to see if Paul is for pre-trib rapture or post-trib rapture.
    Pre-Trib, but not in the manner one might suppose:

    IS 57:1 The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.

    God Will Kill Them, to save them from the evil to come!
    PROV 25:26 Like a muddied spring, and a polluted well, so is a righteous man who gives way before the wicked. -World English Bible

    MT 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.


    As opposed to the bad man that does nothing?

    MT 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

    Righteousness comes from the Bible, but our ability to possess the Bible comes from the possession of the sword.

  12. #177
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    Re: 2 Thessalonians 2

    Quote Originally Posted by dan View Post
    Pre-Trib, but not in the manner one might suppose:

    IS 57:1 The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.

    God Will Kill Them, to save them from the evil to come!
    That is an excellent scripture! Jesus pretty much says the same thing.

    Luke 17:33 Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”

    John 5:24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

    It will appear to all the "left behind" that the righteous dropped dead.

  13. #178

    Re: 2 Thessalonians 2

    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndcoming View Post
    2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

    Let's start a discussion on it,to see if Paul is for pre-trib rapture or post-trib rapture.
    Who is the let in 2 Thes 2:7? I have a very good idea. But just wanted to give you a shot at it.

  14. #179

    Re: 2 Thessalonians 2

    Quote Originally Posted by dan View Post
    Pre-Trib, but not in the manner one might suppose:

    IS 57:1 The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.

    God Will Kill Them, to save them from the evil to come!
    I think you might be wrong on that one. If Paul believed any thing like John, he would be mid-trib and I can prove it.

  15. #180
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    Re: 2 Thessalonians 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Point-man View Post
    Who is the let in 2 Thes 2:7? I have a very good idea. But just wanted to give you a shot at it.
    Michael the Arch Angel in Daniel 12:1 is the one who "letteth" (To hold back and restrain [katechō]) the Son of Perdition from being revealed, as he is protecting Jerusalem and the Future Temple. However, at the time appointed, Satan will be preparing to make war with Heaven, (as Satan knows Jesus is on His way...) [Rev 12:7]. So then Michael can not any longer protect Israel, because He is needed for WAR. So then he is "taken out of the way" by the Lord in order to wage a war with Satan. BUT, while he is away, this will give the son of perdition the chance to move in and stop the sacrifices of the Temple, and place there the Abomination of Desolation: Matt 24:15. Then after a short time Satan and His angels will be thrown down to earth by Michael and his angels, and they will walk among flesh, and will be a part of Rev 13... Possibly even taking up political positions at some of the 10 horns of the Beast... Notice that the Dragon is present for Rev 13, and people KNOW WHO HE IS, in that they Worship HIM... I believe they even SEE Him and His angels.

    Anyways, the one who Let's is the Angel Michael. The one who "might be revealed in his time" is the son of perdition who is the Antichrist. He is not fully revealed to the earth until he Sits on the throne in the Temple to come as god. Then the Jews will realize he is no the messiah they will have believed him to be up to that point, and then all in Judea will RUN FOR THE HILLS!

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