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Thread: Does Revelations Ch(13-14) Reveal Daniel (Ch 11&12)

  1. #1

    Does Revelations Ch(13-14) Reveal Daniel (Ch 11&12)

    The 1290 days (Daniel 12:11) and the 1335 days(Daniel 12:12)

    I have Heard many things about the AoD, but for the most part people have the consensus idea that it shall be set up at the same time as the daily sacrifice is taken away. Personally i believed this also until i came upon Daniel 12:11-12


    Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.(1290)
    12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.(1335)


    Everyone even after reading this passage still seems to believe that these two events, (Taking away of the daily Sacrifice and the AoD) happen at the same time and they assign events after the 1290 days is finished and no one i think of yet has given me an answer to the 1335 day.
    My question is why, doesn't it clearly say that there is a 1290 day gap between these events?


    I believe personally that all prophesy , OT and NT, been fulfilled by Jesus and Jesus revealed to us the events that shall take place after the gospel in Revelations therefore providing us with the fulfillment of all OT prophesy in the NT.

    Therefore i believe the events that happen in Daniel 11-12 have actually been given to us and explained in Revelations, Specifically in Revelations 12-16 it seems that John as a Jew might have even given us hints to lead us to this conclusion on purpose. Do you believe him using Elements like the Women's crown and her travailing in birth Michael the Arch Angel, the Dragon specifically called
    (that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan) the beast, the Remnant [of Jacob] Mount Zion and the Wine-press of God is a incidental or would go unnoticed by a audience familiar with the OT ?

    For example according to Revelations 13:7, the first beast makes war with the saints and kills them this period of 42 months Seems to match up with the period told to Daniel in Chap 12:7 while Revelations 13 reveals the how Daniel 12:17 gives us the why.

    Revelations 13 5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

    Daniel 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

    Daniel 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

    After wards on day 1290 he sets up the AoD. That seems to match what the second beast does in Revelations 13:12-17. Its also interesting that the beast is never mentioned in either Daniel 9, Daniel 11, or Revelations 13 as the one who sets up the AoD. From Daniel 12:11 we would also know that the AoD is set up on day 1290 not at the same time as the daily sacrifice mentioned in Daniel 11:31

    Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
    Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

    Revelations 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
    15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

    This to me seems like a very clear example of the AoD and why Jesus would have warned the people to flee from it when they see it being set up. Considering the mark and people being put to death who don't receive it this will be a troubling time indeed.
    It's also interesting that this statue in Revelations 13 is almost exactly like Nebuchadnezzar statue that Daniel came across, and carries the same punishment for those who don't worship it.
    Death or Gods wrath seems like a hard choice but it also seems the God has provision for his people at this time same as he did in Daniels day according to Revelations 14:12-13.

    Before i didn't understand the significance of Revelations 14:1-5 or the significance of the Lamb standing out on Mount Zion with the 144k before the throne of God in Heaven but after some study i believe Joel describes this event best and shows us a clue to connect it with other passages.

    For example this i believe is the same event Jesus speaks about following the Tribulations of those days(Revelations 13) when he says Matthew 24:30



    Revelations 14 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
    2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:


    Joel 3:15The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
    16 The LORD roars from Zion And utters His voice from Jerusalem, And the heavens and the earth tremble. But the LORD is a refuge for His people And a stronghold to the sons of Israel.


    Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days: 'The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
    After this in all these passages we seem to arrive at the second coming or the wine press. Could the coming of Jesus for the trampling of the wine press be the blessing for those who wait till the 1335? Are theses the once who didn't go out at the appearing of the false prophets and the Revelations (13:14) for lying wonders that the second beast preforms?


    Revelations 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
    20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.


    Revelations 19:11
    And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
    13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
    14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
    15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

    Joel 3:11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.
    12Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.

    13Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.14Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.


    Personally i believe that Revelations 12-16 are describing Johns view of the end times (when all remaining prophesy will be fulfilled) from the perspective of Israel before the Angel carries him to Babylon (Rev Chap.17). But i would love to hear why this can't be or isn't the case?

    Please pick this apart for me, does Jesus fulfill all prophesy? Is this view that John gives us in Revelations 12-16 the fulfillment of all Prophesy for Israel contained in the OT? If not have these events of the last days not been Revealed to the church?
    Does this timeline provide an accurate timeline with that given in Daniel 11-12?


    GT starts (Taking away of daily sacrifice)
    1260 days beast scatter the power of Gods holy people and kills the 2W on day 1260
    On day 1290 (AoD set up)
    On Day 1335 (Jesus returns) sets up MK.


    Also do you believe Revelations 14 is an accurate fulfillment of the prophesy given in Obadiah 1:17 Micah 4-5 Isaiah 10 Joel:3 Psalms 2, Psalms 110, Matthew 24, Matthew 13?

  2. #2

    Re: Does Revelations Ch(13-14) Reveal Daniel (Ch 11&12)

    No, there is some overlap, but certainly not in a synchronized way. I believe Dan 11 was fulfilled historically, having to do with kings leading up to Antiochus 4. Dan 12.11-12 was, I believe, a reiteration of the same, the reign of Antiochus 4.

    Dan 7.25 talks about the 3.5 years of Antichrist's reign. And this is also reiterated in Dan 12.7. They have to do with a "time, times, and half a time," and having nothing whatsoever to do with the 1290 days and the 1335 days.

    So why do we have these two separate incidences within the same chapter, Dan 12? It is because Daniel is asking about the future, and in his book Daniel had been told about both incidences, which were for him future events. Both were events of enormous consequence, and so Daniel's book ends with both events being mentioned.

    It is interesting that both Antiochus 4's reign and Antichrist's reign last about the same length of time, about 3.5 years. Yet both are separate events.

    Rev 13 has to do with the 3.5 years of Antichrist's reign, and so relates to Dan 7.25 and to Dan 12.7.

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    Re: Does Revelations Ch(13-14) Reveal Daniel (Ch 11&12)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post


    GT starts (Taking away of daily sacrifice)
    1260 days beast scatter the power of Gods holy people and kills the 2W on day 1260
    On day 1290 (AoD set up)
    On Day 1335 (Jesus returns) sets up MK.


    Day 1 - daily sacrifice taken away. First beast little horn. Trumpet judgments begin.
    Day 1260 - 2W killed
    Day 1290 - AOD. Second beast. Satan. Start of GT. Vial judgments begin.
    1290 -1335 = Little season.

    Note GT does not start until AOD.

    Also do you believe Revelations 14 is an accurate fulfillment of the prophesy given in Obadiah 1:17 Micah 4-5 Isaiah 10 Joel:3 Psalms 2, Psalms 110, Matthew 24, Matthew 13?
    Rev 14 is the time between after the first beast 1260 until day 1335. It is the time in which the second beast is upon the earth.

    This would correlate the time of the AOD and after in matt 24.

  4. #4

    Re: Does Revelations Ch(13-14) Reveal Daniel (Ch 11&12)

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Day 1 - daily sacrifice taken away. First beast little horn. Trumpet judgments begin.
    Day 1260 - 2W killed
    Day 1290 - AOD. Second beast. Satan. Start of GT. Vial judgments begin.
    1290 -1335 = Little season.

    Note GT does not start until AOD.



    Rev 14 is the time between after the first beast 1260 until day 1335. It is the time in which the second beast is upon the earth.

    This would correlate the time of the AOD and after in matt 24.
    I actually Believe you to be correct the GT stars at the AoD, the one that directly proceeds the time coming of Jesus.
    My question to you then would be Does Jacobs trouble refer to the time of the beasts reign (1260 days of the beast Reign) or the time after during the Gt (AoD) during the time of the second beast?

  5. #5

    Re: Does Revelations Ch(13-14) Reveal Daniel (Ch 11&12)

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    No, there is some overlap, but certainly not in a synchronized way. I believe Dan 11 was fulfilled historically, having to do with kings leading up to Antiochus 4. Dan 12.11-12 was, I believe, a reiteration of the same, the reign of Antiochus 4.

    Dan 7.25 talks about the 3.5 years of Antichrist's reign. And this is also reiterated in Dan 12.7. They have to do with a "time, times, and half a time," and having nothing whatsoever to do with the 1290 days and the 1335 days.

    So why do we have these two separate incidences within the same chapter, Dan 12? It is because Daniel is asking about the future, and in his book Daniel had been told about both incidences, which were for him future events. Both were events of enormous consequence, and so Daniel's book ends with both events being mentioned.

    It is interesting that both Antiochus 4's reign and Antichrist's reign last about the same length of time, about 3.5 years. Yet both are separate events.

    Rev 13 has to do with the 3.5 years of Antichrist's reign, and so relates to Dan 7.25 and to Dan 12.7.
    I'm not sure how you believe that Daniel 1290 and 1335 have nothing to do with the rest of the passage but I'm quite sure Daniel 11:40 - Daniel 12:13 address the time of the end and i don't believe the time of the end was historically fulfilled.

  6. #6

    Re: Does Revelations Ch(13-14) Reveal Daniel (Ch 11&12)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    I'm not sure how you believe that Daniel 1290 and 1335 have nothing to do with the rest of the passage but I'm quite sure Daniel 11:40 - Daniel 12:13 address the time of the end and i don't believe the time of the end was historically fulfilled.
    Encyclopedia of Biblical Prophecy, by J. Barton Payne on Dan 8:25b;12:11c-12: Fulfillment (per.11): the death of Antiochus in 164 B.C. beyond Babylon, by sickness, 1 Macc 6:9. This may also be the point of reference involved in the figure of Dan 12:11, that "from the time that the continual burnt offering shall be taken away...there shall be 1,290 days." From the onset of the Greek profanation of the temple in December, 168..., this period extends some 3 years, 6 1/2 months, to mid-164, when the persecutor did die. Concerning the additional figure that is stated in v. 12, "Blessed is he that waiteth to the 1,335 days," Leupold speculates, "Assume that the first figure might have related to the death of the tyrant. Then happy would be the man who would live a month and a half more; for he would live, perhaps, to hear of the death of the tyrant, it being assumed that 45 days might be consumed till the news of his death in Persia had penetrated back to Judea."

    As for the "time, times, and half a time" that is a specific period mentioned in Dan 12.7, that refers exactly to the "time, times, and half a time" mentioned in Dan 7.25. It is also the time period mentioned in the book of Revelation as related to the reign of Antichrist. As I said before, both the time, times, and half a time and the 1290/1335 day periods were future to Daniel. Daniel was asking about future events, and he was told about both events in the book's summary. It confused Daniel because they were both future, and they were both very significant future events. But it wasn't for Daniel to know the specifics, since they were more for future generations to know and experience. We are given only what we need to know for the present.

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    Re: Does Revelations Ch(13-14) Reveal Daniel (Ch 11&12)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Does this timeline provide an accurate timeline with that given in Daniel 11-12?[/B]

    GT starts (Taking away of daily sacrifice)
    1260 days beast scatter the power of Gods holy people and kills the 2W on day 1260
    On day 1290 (AoD set up)
    On Day 1335 (Jesus returns) sets up MK.

    [/SIZE]
    There is another way of looking at Daniel 12.
    A) Jesus took away the need of the daily sacrifice, the crucifixion was the cut-off point between a requirement of daily sacrifice and a requirement of faith in Jesus.
    B) The antichrist will set up the abomination in the future.

    There is over 2000 years between these two events, the Hebrew word is TIME/SEASON

    From the season that the daily sacrifice is CUWR (turned aside/departed from) and the abomination is set up, there will be 1290 days.

    We are currently in a season. This season/time started when Jesus turned us aside from the daily sacrifice, and this season will end when the abomination is set up. THEN we will have the 1290 day period. Yes the period mentioned in Daniel 12 is also referred to in Revelation 13 and described in Revelation 14. It is known as the great tribulation.

  8. #8

    Re: Does Revelations Ch(13-14) Reveal Daniel (Ch 11&12)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    I'm not sure how you believe that Daniel 1290 and 1335 have nothing to do with the rest of the passage but I'm quite sure Daniel 11:40 - Daniel 12:13 address the time of the end and i don't believe the time of the end was historically fulfilled.
    I might also add that I think the "time of the end" is often misconstrued to be a reference to the end of the NT age. This phrase does not have a technical application to the NT age, unless the context itself demands it.

    For example, in Dan 8.17 “Son of man,” he said to me, “understand that the vision concerns the time of the end.”

    This may sound as if it has to do with the "endtimes," as we mean that phrase today. But in its own historical context it referred to ancient Persia, Media, and Greece. As such it may very well have referenced the reader to the end of the temple system, or to the end of Jewish hope. Such phrases can refer to the end of a particular kingdom or empire.

    Of course, at some point the phrase *will* refer to the end of the NT age. But it is context that will determined this.

  9. #9

    Re: Does Revelations Ch(13-14) Reveal Daniel (Ch 11&12)

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    There is another way of looking at Daniel 12.
    A) Jesus took away the need of the daily sacrifice, the crucifixion was the cut-off point between a requirement of daily sacrifice and a requirement of faith in Jesus.
    B) The antichrist will set up the abomination in the future.

    There is over 2000 years between these two events, the Hebrew word is TIME/SEASON

    From the season that the daily sacrifice is CUWR (turned aside/departed from) and the abomination is set up, there will be 1290 days.

    We are currently in a season. This season/time started when Jesus turned us aside from the daily sacrifice, and this season will end when the abomination is set up. THEN we will have the 1290 day period. Yes the period mentioned in Daniel 12 is also referred to in Revelation 13 and described in Revelation 14. It is known as the great tribulation.
    Sorry but the bible clearly says that this time begins with the taking away of the daily sacrifice and then on the 1290 day the setting up of the AoD. Daniel 12:11, Also note Daniels period is Described in Revelations 13 including the AoD and the coming of the Lord or the Day of the Lord after the tribulation of those days is described in Revelations 14.

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    Re: Does Revelations Ch(13-14) Reveal Daniel (Ch 11&12)

    I have Heard many things about the AoD, but for the most part people have the consensus idea that it shall be set up at the same time as the daily sacrifice is taken away. Personally i believed this also until i came upon Daniel 12:11-12

    Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.(1290)
    12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.(1335)
    The Original text does not say SACRIFICE..........It says the Daily.

    12:11 And from the time 6256 x4480 [that] the daily 8548 [sacrifice] shall be taken away, 5493 z8717 and the abomination 8251 that maketh desolate 8074 z8802 set up, 5414 z8800 [there shall be] a thousand 505 two hundred 3967 and ninety 8673 days. 3117

    Words in bold added by Translators. My contention is Jesus is accepted as the Messiah before the AoD. Malachi 4:5-6 clearly says that Elijah will turn Israel back to God before the Day of the Lord. So my thinking is that the "Daily" is an Oblation (Honoring/Tribute) to Jesus Christ. The word SACRIFICE was added.

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    Re: Does Revelations Ch(13-14) Reveal Daniel (Ch 11&12)

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I might also add that I think the "time of the end" is often misconstrued to be a reference to the end of the NT age. This phrase does not have a technical application to the NT age, unless the context itself demands it.

    For example, in Dan 8.17 “Son of man,” he said to me, “understand that the vision concerns the time of the end.”

    This may sound as if it has to do with the "endtimes," as we mean that phrase today. But in its own historical context it referred to ancient Persia, Media, and Greece. As such it may very well have referenced the reader to the end of the temple system, or to the end of Jewish hope. Such phrases can refer to the end of a particular kingdom or empire.

    Of course, at some point the phrase *will* refer to the end of the NT age. But it is context that will determined this.
    Daniel 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

    Daniel 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end : because it is yet for a time appointed.

    Daniel 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass

    Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end : many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

    Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end .

    Maybe I'm just too practical about things, but I find it unreasonable if none of the passages I have underlined have zero to do with the end of time leading up to the 2nd coming, or that some of these do, but some of these don't. Assuming the latter as a possibility, I guess that means this angel/s saying these things to Daniel is just his way of trying to confuse later readers, such as us, since he uses the exact same phrase in all the above passages, but not all of the above passages have the same time of the end in mind. Since folks make a big deal about consistency when interpreting Scriptures, you would think consistency applies here as well, in regards to an angel/s using the exact same phrase numerous times in different passages, meaning the same time of the end should apply to all the above.

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    Re: Does Revelations Ch(13-14) Reveal Daniel (Ch 11&12)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Sorry but the bible clearly says that this time begins with the taking away of the daily sacrifice and then on the 1290 day the setting up of the AoD. Daniel 12:11, Also note Daniels period is Described in Revelations 13 including the AoD and the coming of the Lord or the Day of the Lord after the tribulation of those days is described in Revelations 14.
    It doesn't clearly say what you are saying. It clearly says this:

    11 “From the time/season that the daily sacrifice is CUWR and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.

    I then put in some color:

    11 “From the time/season that the daily sacrifice is CUWR and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.

    CUWR means to turn aside from/depart from

    So this can easily mean from the season that starts with the crucifixion and ends with the abomination, there will be a further 1290 days. It is one possible way of looking at the verse.

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    Re: Does Revelations Ch(13-14) Reveal Daniel (Ch 11&12)

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Daniel 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

    Daniel 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end : because it is yet for a time appointed.

    Daniel 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass

    Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end : many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

    Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end .

    Maybe I'm just too practical about things, but I find it unreasonable if none of the passages I have underlined have zero to do with the end of time leading up to the 2nd coming, or that some of these do, but some of these don't. Assuming the latter as a possibility, I guess that means this angel/s saying these things to Daniel is just his way of trying to confuse later readers, such as us, since he uses the exact same phrase in all the above passages, but not all of the above passages have the same time of the end in mind. Since folks make a big deal about consistency when interpreting Scriptures, you would think consistency applies here as well, in regards to an angel/s using the exact same phrase numerous times in different passages, meaning the same time of the end should apply to all the above.
    What is ending? If context is referring to the end of the world, then the end of the world is in mind. If context is referring to the end of the Greek empire, then the end of the Greek empire is in mind. If context is referring to the unfolding of a vision, then the unfolding of a vision is in mind.

    They were watching a movie. Towards the time of the end, the popcorn was finished
    John went on holiday. At the time of the end he caught a flight home.
    The match was nearly finished, at the time of the end they scored and won the game.

    Its not the way we normally word things, but they used language differently to us, context is everything.

  14. #14

    Re: Does Revelations Ch(13-14) Reveal Daniel (Ch 11&12)

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Daniel 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

    Daniel 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end : because it is yet for a time appointed.

    Daniel 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass

    Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end : many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

    Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end .

    Maybe I'm just too practical about things, but I find it unreasonable if none of the passages I have underlined have zero to do with the end of time leading up to the 2nd coming, or that some of these do, but some of these don't. Assuming the latter as a possibility, I guess that means this angel/s saying these things to Daniel is just his way of trying to confuse later readers, such as us, since he uses the exact same phrase in all the above passages, but not all of the above passages have the same time of the end in mind. Since folks make a big deal about consistency when interpreting Scriptures, you would think consistency applies here as well, in regards to an angel/s using the exact same phrase numerous times in different passages, meaning the same time of the end should apply to all the above.
    What I'm saying is that the confusion comes when we think Daniel is applying a *technical definition* to the phrase "time of the end." It is rather a common phrase that applies in any context. It could apply to the "time of the end" of temple worship. It could apply to the "time of the end" of Antiochus 4's kingdom. Or it could apply to the "time of the end" of the OT/NT ages, when the Messianic Kingdom would arrive.

    None of this can be construed as an attempt by Daniel to "confuse" his readers unless we see that phrase "time of the end" to have a specific, technical application to only one context. For example, if Daniel meant the phrase "time of the end" to apply to the end of the NT age, then obviously he would be confusing us by using that phrase in the context of the reign of Antiochus 4!

    But it is only *us* who might want to apply "time of the end" to current prophetic fulfillment in our own era. In reality, such a phrase has to be given meaning *the way Daniel intended it.* It is a common phrase. It's just that we're so eschatology-minded that we read into "the end" the end of history, when all the "end" means is a terminal point for anything!

  15. #15

    Re: Does Revelations Ch(13-14) Reveal Daniel (Ch 11&12)

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    What I'm saying is that the confusion comes when we think Daniel is applying a *technical definition* to the phrase "time of the end." It is rather a common phrase that applies in any context. It could apply to the "time of the end" of temple worship. It could apply to the "time of the end" of Antiochus 4's kingdom. Or it could apply to the "time of the end" of the OT/NT ages, when the Messianic Kingdom would arrive.

    None of this can be construed as an attempt by Daniel to "confuse" his readers unless we see that phrase "time of the end" to have a specific, technical application to only one context. For example, if Daniel meant the phrase "time of the end" to apply to the end of the NT age, then obviously he would be confusing us by using that phrase in the context of the reign of Antiochus 4!

    But it is only *us* who might want to apply "time of the end" to current prophetic fulfillment in our own era. In reality, such a phrase has to be given meaning *the way Daniel intended it.* It is a common phrase. It's just that we're so eschatology-minded that we read into "the end" the end of history, when all the "end" means is a terminal point for anything!
    I'm curious why only Daniel gets this interpretation though, his vision seems to mirror the account of other prophets and the events of Joel, Zechariah, Micah and even Revelations. Yet for some reason you look for the fulfillment of their prophesy in the future while you attempt to put Daniels prophesy as finding Fulfillment in Antiochus even though he clearly doesn't fit this story. To me this is extremely clear when Jesus is describing the time of the end at the olive discourse and mentions the AoD spoken of by Daniel speaking of it as a future event. Personally i know people have ways to explain that also (doesn't fit with me but they do), Maybe i should have left Daniel out because people rather see it for what it possibly could be instead of Connecting it to the other passages in the bible that explain this time (from other prophets) and try to collect all the different info and views presented by the different prophets that experienced it.

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