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Thread: Does Revelations Ch(13-14) Reveal Daniel (Ch 11&12)

  1. #196
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    Re: Does Revelations Ch(13-14) Reveal Daniel (Ch 11&12)

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Yes, Dan 7 is easiest--not because it compares with the 1st 3 beasts, necessarily, but because it refers to the Son of Man coming with his Kingdom, and to the "little horn" that immediately precedes that event. The "little horn," which we know to be the Antichrist, will be *destroyed* at Christ's Coming--just as Paul indicated in 2 Thes 2.

    I don't necessarily think the 3 beasts of Dan 7 correspond with the Beast of Rev 13 simply because they had the same animal parts. It is possible, of course, but not necessarily so. The 3 beasts of Dan 7 were often identified by Prophecy Scholars with Babylon, Persia, and Greece. We *know* the 1st Beast is Babylon because that is when Daniel lived, and it seems to be identified as such. The 2nd Beast obviously succeeded Babylon, and was Persia in history. Following Persia was Greece in history. And following Greece was Rome in history, which was indeed a "terrible Beast!"

    The significance of the 4th Beast can hardly be overstated. That was the Beast in the time in which Christ was crucified, and the time in which the Apostles were put to death. That is the culture in which the Early Church got started. And finally, that imperial culture *still exists!* In the visions of Daniel that 4th Beast seems to be the final imperial power controlling Israel until the Kingdom of Messiah. It is Western Roman culture, ending with British control over Palestine, that has led to the reformation of Israel.
    Have you ever considered the possibility that the majority opinion could be wrong about Daniel 7?
    There are some issues with the interpretation of kingdoms, when it clearly says "kings." Not to mention that the Roman empire is long gone by any definition of an empire.

    17 ‘Those great beasts, which are four, are four kings

    The first three remain alive while the fourth beast is being slain.

    12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

    Have you ever noticed this? Compare to Revelation.

    Dan 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea
    Dan 7:17 ‘Those great beasts, which are four, are four kings which arise out of the earth.

    Rev 13:1 And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea
    Rev 13:11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth

    The definition of arising from the sea is arising OUT OF the earth, not arising ON the earth. This beast comes out of the abyss as we are told in Revelation. The book of Enoch tells us that a beast is parted/separated (depending on translation) in the day of judgment. The first beast in Rev 13 gets parted into the four in Daniel 7. This probably doesn't make much sense, but it could with further study. It gets far more interesting, but I'll leave it there for now.

    I will never treat my brother in Christ with such contempt! No matter how much we may disagree our goals are the same, and the Spirit is the same. We will eventually end up in the same place, whether here or in the future.

    I'm a pretty established Postribber, having focused on this issue for several decades. I've studied just about everything that can be studied about it, although I'm sure there's always more to be considered. I have not read some important materials on the subject, but I know the arguments pretty well.

    Whether or not the Beast is the Antichrist itself creates more questions: there are 2 beasts--not just 1--which 1 is *not* the Antichrist? Is the 1st or the 2nd Beast the Antichrist, while the other is not? Is neither Beast the Antichrist?

    I prefer to utilize historical scholars in all of my views, with the exception of interpretations involving current events. Everybody interprets prophecy in their own times. For example, a great Bible Scholar of 500 years ago could not have possibly known about what happened to Israel in 1947-48.

    Although many Bible Scholars think either of the 2 Beasts as the Antichrist I see the 1st Beast as the Antichrist. But he also appears to be an Empire. So they are one or both, in my view--probably both. But I'm always open to more information. I'm sure I have a number of places where I need to be corrected or refined. Thanks Tony!
    Imo, none of the beasts in Revelation are the AC. The AC is destroyed by Jesus' coming to gather the elect at the 7th Trumpet. Thus shortening the days of tribulation for the elect's sake. Then Jesus is caught up in Rev 12 to cast out satan. Yes, the entire 1260 days of satan and the beasts come after Jesus has returned to gather the elect. I know right now this seems impossible. That is exactly what the chronological reading of Revelation reveals. Also, it confirms many of the OT passages such as these:

    Daniel 12:1 “At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation,
    Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book.

    Deliverance for "your people," the Jews, comes at the time when there shall be a time of trouble such as never before. That is what it says.

    Isaiah 16:1 Send the LAMB to the ruler of the land, From Sela to the wilderness, To the mount of the daughter of Zion. 2 For it shall be as a wandering bird thrown out of the nest; So shall be the daughters of Moab at the fords of the Arnon. 3 “Take counsel, execute judgment; Make your shadow like the night in the middle of the day; Hide the outcasts, Do not betray him who escapes. 4 Let My outcasts dwell with you, O Moab; Be a shelter to them from the face of the spoiler. For the extortioner is at an end, Devastation ceases, The oppressors are consumed out of the land.

    The extortioner is at an end. Moab is the wilderness in Rev 12 where the elect are sheltered from the spoiler, the beast. Notice Moab is east of Jerusalem. The exact direction they will flee when Jesus return to the Mount of Olives.

    Zechariah 14:3 Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. 4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. 5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee

    Since I know how difficult it is to believe satan and the beast come after Jesus return to gather the elect, I ask a few questions.

    When Jesus, the King of Kings, Lord of Lords, returns in great glory, why in the world do the people in Jerusalem need to flee?

    Zechariah 2:5 For I,’ says the Lord, ‘will be a wall of fire all around her, and I will be the glory in her midst.’”

    Why does Jesus need to be a wall of fire around his people after He has returned?

    I know how difficult this is to accept. Anyway, at least you can say you heard once.

    Isaiah 26:Come, my people, enter your chambers, And shut your doors behind you; Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment, Until the indignation is past. 21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity...27:1 In that day the Lord with His severe sword, great and strong, Will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent, Leviathan that twisted serpent; And He will slay the reptile that is in the sea.

    Satan, all his angels, and all the demons from the abyss, are also "inhabitants of the earth" by this point. Armageddon will the great battle of God Almighty indeed. God knows what He is doing and it is awesome!

  2. #197

    Re: Does Revelations Ch(13-14) Reveal Daniel (Ch 11&12)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    Have you ever considered the possibility that the majority opinion could be wrong about Daniel 7?
    There are some issues with the interpretation of kingdoms, when it clearly says "kings." Not to mention that the Roman empire is long gone by any definition of an empire.

    17 ‘Those great beasts, which are four, are four kings

    The first three remain alive while the fourth beast is being slain.

    12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

    Have you ever noticed this? Compare to Revelation.

    Dan 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea
    Dan 7:17 ‘Those great beasts, which are four, are four kings which arise out of the earth.

    Rev 13:1 And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea
    Rev 13:11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth

    The definition of arising from the sea is arising OUT OF the earth, not arising ON the earth. This beast comes out of the abyss as we are told in Revelation. The book of Enoch tells us that a beast is parted/separated (depending on translation) in the day of judgment. The first beast in Rev 13 gets parted into the four in Daniel 7. This probably doesn't make much sense, but it could with further study. It gets far more interesting, but I'll leave it there for now.
    You must've missed my argument? I said that Daniel virtually identifies the 4 beasts. He lived during 2 of them. He identified Babylon, his present captor, as the 1st. So clearly, these are historical beasts--not eschatological ones! Taken sequentially they take us to Rome, the 4th beast, "different from the rest." Rome was different. It was greater. Its culture has been more expansive than that of Hellenism, since it took from Hellenism. And it expanded its imperial tradition throughout the world, West and East. And it was the empire that persecuted the Early Church, including Christ himself. Rome was indeed "different!" Since these 4 beasts were historical, how can they be associated with anything eschatological?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P
    Imo, none of the beasts in Revelation are the AC. The AC is destroyed by Jesus' coming to gather the elect at the 7th Trumpet. Thus shortening the days of tribulation for the elect's sake. Then Jesus is caught up in Rev 12 to cast out satan. Yes, the entire 1260 days of satan and the beasts come after Jesus has returned to gather the elect. I know right now this seems impossible. That is exactly what the chronological reading of Revelation reveals. Also, it confirms many of the OT passages such as these:

    Daniel 12:1 “At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation,
    Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book.

    Deliverance for "your people," the Jews, comes at the time when there shall be a time of trouble such as never before. That is what it says.

    Isaiah 16:1 Send the LAMB to the ruler of the land, From Sela to the wilderness, To the mount of the daughter of Zion. 2 For it shall be as a wandering bird thrown out of the nest; So shall be the daughters of Moab at the fords of the Arnon. 3 “Take counsel, execute judgment; Make your shadow like the night in the middle of the day; Hide the outcasts, Do not betray him who escapes. 4 Let My outcasts dwell with you, O Moab; Be a shelter to them from the face of the spoiler. For the extortioner is at an end, Devastation ceases, The oppressors are consumed out of the land.

    The extortioner is at an end. Moab is the wilderness in Rev 12 where the elect are sheltered from the spoiler, the beast. Notice Moab is east of Jerusalem. The exact direction they will flee when Jesus return to the Mount of Olives.

    Zechariah 14:3 Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. 4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. 5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee

    Since I know how difficult it is to believe satan and the beast come after Jesus return to gather the elect, I ask a few questions.

    When Jesus, the King of Kings, Lord of Lords, returns in great glory, why in the world do the people in Jerusalem need to flee?
    This is the reason why you believe in some kind of Mid-Trib Rapture? In my book you've interpreted the "fleeing" passage completely wrong! In my theology this refers, in the Olivet Discourse, to the 1st Jewish War 66-70 AD, in which Christians had to flee from Jerusalem from what they anticipated would be a Roman siege. There is another reference to a "fleeing" perhaps in Rev 12--the Woman fleeing from the Dragon in the wilderness. But that does appear to be an endtimes fulfillment--an eschatological context--perhaps the last 3.5 years of the age? So if you have the "fleeing" wrong, I'm not surprised your theology of the endtimes is wrong as well (in my opinion).

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P
    Zechariah 2:5 For I,’ says the Lord, ‘will be a wall of fire all around her, and I will be the glory in her midst.’”

    Why does Jesus need to be a wall of fire around his people after He has returned?

    I know how difficult this is to accept. Anyway, at least you can say you heard once.

    Isaiah 26:Come, my people, enter your chambers, And shut your doors behind you; Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment, Until the indignation is past. 21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity...27:1 In that day the Lord with His severe sword, great and strong, Will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent, Leviathan that twisted serpent; And He will slay the reptile that is in the sea.

    Satan, all his angels, and all the demons from the abyss, are also "inhabitants of the earth" by this point. Armageddon will the great battle of God Almighty indeed. God knows what He is doing and it is awesome!

  3. #198

    Re: Does Revelations Ch(13-14) Reveal Daniel (Ch 11&12)

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    You must've missed my argument? I said that Daniel virtually identifies the 4 beasts. He lived during 2 of them. He identified Babylon, his present captor, as the 1st. So clearly, these are historical beasts--not eschatological ones! Taken sequentially they take us to Rome, the 4th beast, "different from the rest." Rome was different. It was greater. Its culture has been more expansive than that of Hellenism, since it took from Hellenism. And it expanded its imperial tradition throughout the world, West and East. And it was the empire that persecuted the Early Church, including Christ himself. Rome was indeed "different!" Since these 4 beasts were historical, how can they be associated with anything eschatological?
    This is false Daniel doesn't identify any of the beasts. There is no reference to Daniel saying the first beast is Babylon, you can say you believe this but your belief does not mean what your saying is true.

    1.Daniel virtually identifies the 4 beasts. False
    2. He lived during 2 of them. False
    3. He identified Babylon, his present captor, as the 1st. False
    4. Since these 4 beasts were historical, how can they be associated with anything eschatological? This is an opinion based on the false assumptions you made above and is therefore incorrect.

    That these statements are false is a fact therefore so is the conclusion: please state your opinions as opinions this might be you interpretation of what the vision was. Daniel does not identify the 4 beasts nor does he say he lived during any of them, this are assumptions not given in the text and to claim otherwise is false.



    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    This is the reason why you believe in some kind of Mid-Trib Rapture? In my book you've interpreted the "fleeing" passage completely wrong! In my theology this refers, in the Olivet Discourse, to the 1st Jewish War 66-70 AD, in which Christians had to flee from Jerusalem from what they anticipated would be a Roman siege. There is another reference to a "fleeing" perhaps in Rev 12--the Woman fleeing from the Dragon in the wilderness. But that does appear to be an endtimes fulfillment--an eschatological context--perhaps the last 3.5 years of the age? So if you have the "fleeing" wrong, I'm not surprised your theology of the endtimes is wrong as well (in my opinion).
    Yea this is your opinion one of the reasons we will never have similar eschatology you seem to be a partial preterist. I just hope your open and able to at least view the ideas of others even if you don't necessarily believe them, overall you don't seem to be able to debate the ideas of others or consider them when your own view is different. You know *your* theology maybe consider the merits of other theology based on the bible and not against your theology. Overall what based solely on the bible, to you makes Tony position incorrect?
    So far you only seem to argue that its different then your theology therefore you reject it: which personally i don't think is a legitimate argument we all obviously have different views.

  4. #199
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    Re: Does Revelations Ch(13-14) Reveal Daniel (Ch 11&12)

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    You must've missed my argument? I said that Daniel virtually identifies the 4 beasts. He lived during 2 of them. He identified Babylon, his present captor, as the 1st. So clearly, these are historical beasts--not eschatological ones! Taken sequentially they take us to Rome, the 4th beast, "different from the rest." Rome was different. It was greater. Its culture has been more expansive than that of Hellenism, since it took from Hellenism. And it expanded its imperial tradition throughout the world, West and East. And it was the empire that persecuted the Early Church, including Christ himself. Rome was indeed "different!" Since these 4 beasts were historical, how can they be associated with anything eschatological?
    Daniel did not identify the beasts. Again, you are bringing a premise into the text. There are many holes in your theory here, yet you still cling to it because you won't let go of your premise. These beast rise OUT OF the earth. That cannot happen until the abyss is opened in the 5th trumpet. Besides, they are four kings, not kingdoms. And the first three are all still alive while the fourth one is under fire. Rejecting the text in favor of a theory makes no sense to me. The text is clear if we leave out our own baggage.

    This is the reason why you believe in some kind of Mid-Trib Rapture? In my book you've interpreted the "fleeing" passage completely wrong! In my theology this refers, in the Olivet Discourse, to the 1st Jewish War 66-70 AD, in which Christians had to flee from Jerusalem from what they anticipated would be a Roman siege. There is another reference to a "fleeing" perhaps in Rev 12--the Woman fleeing from the Dragon in the wilderness. But that does appear to be an endtimes fulfillment--an eschatological context--perhaps the last 3.5 years of the age? So if you have the "fleeing" wrong, I'm not surprised your theology of the endtimes is wrong as well (in my opinion).
    Did the Mount of Olives split in two in 70 AD? If so, when did it move back together? Christians did not flee Jerusalem in 70 AD. You already know this from early Christian writings, yet you still cling to it. Further, the book of Acts clearly states Jesus will return to the Mount of Olives in the same manner in which He left. That hasn't happened yet, but you think that did happen in 70 AD? I know you are smarter than that. If we have to start making everything figurative, we've already lost any hope of finding the truth.

  5. #200
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    Re: Does Revelations Ch(13-14) Reveal Daniel (Ch 11&12)

    Did the Mount of Olives split in two in 70 AD? If so, when did it move back together? Christians did not flee Jerusalem in 70 AD. You already know this from early Christian writings, yet you still cling to it. Further, the book of Acts clearly states Jesus will return to the Mount of Olives in the same manner in which He left. That hasn't happened yet, but you think that did happen in 70 AD? I know you are smarter than that. If we have to start making everything figurative, we've already lost any hope of finding the truth
    The mount of olives splitting is not literal Jesus did stand on the mount of olives on the day He ascended and gave the command to take the gospel to the world and what happened shook the earth.

    The Christians fled Jerusalem before 70AD when Rome first surrounded Jerusalem but then pulled back before they came again in 70AD.

    Acts 1:9-11
    9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

    10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

    The book of Acts says nothing of Jesus coming back to the mount of Olives all it says is that He will come back down from the sky it doesn't even say He will come down on a cloud the cloud just hid Him

  6. #201
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    Re: Does Revelations Ch(13-14) Reveal Daniel (Ch 11&12)

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    The mount of olives splitting is not literal Jesus did stand on the mount of olives on the day He ascended and gave the command to take the gospel to the world and what happened shook the earth.

    The Christians fled Jerusalem before 70AD when Rome first surrounded Jerusalem but then pulled back before they came again in 70AD.

    Acts 1:9-11
    9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

    10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

    The book of Acts says nothing of Jesus coming back to the mount of Olives all it says is that He will come back down from the sky it doesn't even say He will come down on a cloud the cloud just hid Him
    What makes you believe the Mount of Olives splitting in two is *not literal*? We are told the mount of olives will split in two probably to create space for the fleeing Jews and it doesn't need to close back afterwards because the new earth will replace the old anyway. But Jesus standing on mount olives is figurative of his presence in Zion.

  7. #202

    Re: Does Revelations Ch(13-14) Reveal Daniel (Ch 11&12)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    This is false Daniel doesn't identify any of the beasts. There is no reference to Daniel saying the first beast is Babylon, you can say you believe this but your belief does not mean what your saying is true.

    1.Daniel virtually identifies the 4 beasts. False
    2. He lived during 2 of them. False
    3. He identified Babylon, his present captor, as the 1st. False
    4. Since these 4 beasts were historical, how can they be associated with anything eschatological? This is an opinion based on the false assumptions you made above and is therefore incorrect.

    That these statements are false is a fact therefore so is the conclusion: please state your opinions as opinions this might be you interpretation of what the vision was. Daniel does not identify the 4 beasts nor does he say he lived during any of them, this are assumptions not given in the text and to claim otherwise is false.
    Dan 2.39 “After you, another kingdom will arise, inferior to yours. Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule over the whole earth. 40 Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron—for iron breaks and smashes everything—and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others... 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were all broken to pieces and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth."

    Dan 7.2 Daniel said: “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me were the four winds of heaven churning up the great sea. 3 Four great beasts, each different from the others, came up out of the sea... 7 “After that, in my vision at night I looked, and there before me was a fourth beast—terrifying and frightening and very powerful. It had large iron teeth; it crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. It was different from all the former beasts"... 13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,[a] coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed."

    These are two separate visions/dreams, and they both say the same thing: 4 kingdoms, the 4th kingdom different. Both visions end with the coming of the Kingdom of God. So they match, and many interpreters see that as the logical deduction. If so, then yes, Daniel identifies the 1st Kingdom as Babylon. I will not get into a war with you over this--this is indeed just my opinion. But it is not without basis, as you seem to allege.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus
    ]
    Yea this is your opinion one of the reasons we will never have similar eschatology you seem to be a partial preterist. I just hope your open and able to at least view the ideas of others even if you don't necessarily believe them, overall you don't seem to be able to debate the ideas of others or consider them when your own view is different. You know *your* theology maybe consider the merits of other theology based on the bible and not against your theology. Overall what based solely on the bible, to you makes Tony position incorrect?
    So far you only seem to argue that its different then your theology therefore you reject it: which personally i don't think is a legitimate argument we all obviously have different views.
    I'm *not* a Partial Preterist--I've visited this claim before, and it's false for the reasons I mentioned at that time. I will repeat them here. I'm not a Partial Preterist because Partial Preterists go farther than simply believe that the Abomination of Desolation is the Roman Army in the 1st Jewish War 66-70 AD. A number of the Early Church Fathers may have believed that Rome was the AoD. Others believed it would be a future phenomena--the Antichrist.

    But Partial Preterists accept that Jesus did not actually *come* in 70 AD. Rather, they think the AoD was fulfilled at that time, and fulfilled pretty much *the rest of biblical eschatology, including the book of Revelation.* Some here have argued this point with me, that Partial Preterists do allow from some other future fulfillment of Bible Prophecy beyond the AoD in 70 AD, but I don't consider this significant. Partial Preterists would reject much of the future interpretation of the book of Revelation, including the Antichrist, the 3.5 years Reign of Antichrist, the long Great Tribulation, or Diaspora, of the Jews, as well as the restoration of Israel at Christ's return. I could, however, be wrong on some of these points, since I do not actually read Preterist literature for the most part.

    So I am a futurist, and believe in Israel's restoration, the Reign of Antichrist, and what is commonly termed "the Great Tribulation." I also believe that not only was the AoD fulfilled in Christ's generation (as Jesus said), but I also believe that was just the *beginning* of sorrows for the Jews (also as Jesus said). The Great Tribulation of the Jews had its beginning point in 70 AD, and continues all through the NT age. It only ends at Christ's return.

    I have no problem with others having different views. As I've said before, I think we should at least *try* to avoid the personal commentary, though some of it is unavoidable. I'm always open to fresh ideas. But I'm not likely to entertain them seriously if they do not fit into some of my presuppositions. Those presuppositions are not "iron clad," but they are based on many years of forays into different perspectives. I've held to a number of different positions before settling on my present beliefs. But again, I'm always willing to change, if necessary. It doesn't hurt me to hear something different.

  8. #203

    Re: Does Revelations Ch(13-14) Reveal Daniel (Ch 11&12)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    Daniel did not identify the beasts. Again, you are bringing a premise into the text. There are many holes in your theory here, yet you still cling to it because you won't let go of your premise. These beast rise OUT OF the earth. That cannot happen until the abyss is opened in the 5th trumpet. Besides, they are four kings, not kingdoms. And the first three are all still alive while the fourth one is under fire. Rejecting the text in favor of a theory makes no sense to me. The text is clear if we leave out our own baggage.
    Please see my answer to Jesuslovesus in post #202. I compare Nebuchadnezzar's Dream in Dan 2 with Daniel's Vision in Dan 7. They seem to represent the same 4 kingdoms. In Dan 2 Daniel identifies the 1st Kingdom as Babylon.

    Saying that the Beast cannot rise "out of the earth" unless "the Abyss is opened" is a strange claim. It's strange because there is no explicit theology involved. These are visions, and unless there is careful interpretation you do not have theology. And yet here you're making theology out of visions, and the interpretation is sketchy. Would God have us base theology on visions without explicit theology?--no. Beyond that, I have no problem offering theories on the interpretation of these visions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P
    Did the Mount of Olives split in two in 70 AD? If so, when did it move back together? Christians did not flee Jerusalem in 70 AD. You already know this from early Christian writings, yet you still cling to it. Further, the book of Acts clearly states Jesus will return to the Mount of Olives in the same manner in which He left. That hasn't happened yet, but you think that did happen in 70 AD? I know you are smarter than that. If we have to start making everything figurative, we've already lost any hope of finding the truth.
    I didn't say Jesus returned in 70 AD! That is the Preterist position--not mine!

    You are conflating (in my opinion) two separate events. One, Christ will return, at his 2nd Coming, to the Mt. of Olives. He will visibly, physically return. (How long he will stay I don't know?) In the middle of that return he will be joined by immortal Christians, the Church of the NT Age. This will begin the Millennial Age, in which a whole new set of Christians will be born, along with many who will not become genuine Christians.

    Two, in the 1st Jewish War, 66-70 AD, it is a fact of history that Christians did flee to Pella. I don't know why you think this is false? It is a matter of historical record!

    So I see that you mention another incident in which there is a "fleeing," in Zech 14.5. Yes, I do believe that event will take place in the endtimes, about the time of Christ's return. But that is completely different, in my view, from the "fleeing" mentioned in the Olivet Discourse. That event took place, I believe, in the 1st Jewish War, 66-70 AD.

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    Re: Does Revelations Ch(13-14) Reveal Daniel (Ch 11&12)

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Dan 2.39 “After you, another kingdom will arise, inferior to yours. Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule over the whole earth. 40 Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron—for iron breaks and smashes everything—and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others... 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were all broken to pieces and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth."

    Dan 7.2 Daniel said: “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me were the four winds of heaven churning up the great sea. 3 Four great beasts, each different from the others, came up out of the sea... 7 “After that, in my vision at night I looked, and there before me was a fourth beast—terrifying and frightening and very powerful. It had large iron teeth; it crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. It was different from all the former beasts"... 13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,[a] coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed."

    These are two separate visions/dreams, and they both say the same thing: 4 kingdoms, the 4th kingdom different. Both visions end with the coming of the Kingdom of God. So they match, and many interpreters see that as the logical deduction. If so, then yes, Daniel identifies the 1st Kingdom as Babylon. I will not get into a war with you over this--this is indeed just my opinion. But it is not without basis, as you seem to allege.
    In order to come to your conclusions, you first have to begin with an incorrect premise. Dan 2 and 7 are not the same in any way whatsoever. They totally unrelated except for they end with Jesus' coming, but so does most of prophecy in the Bible. Remove that preconceived premise and the theory folds under its own weight.

    It really boils down to simple logic on Dan 7.
    One, Rome is long ago a member of the dustbin of history, yet Jesus didn't return at the end of it. Either the Bible is wrong, or our interpretation is wrong.

    Two, Daniel said the four beasts are four kings, not kingdoms. Should correct Daniel, actually correct Gabriel, a messenger from God? Though it is possible for there to be an error in the text passed down somehow, the context proves Daniel meant kings, not kingdoms.

    Three, the first three beasts/kings are all still alive while the fourth beast is being burned. Cannot be ancient kingdoms. They have all been dead for centuries.

    I can understand trying to combine Dan 2 and 7 while the Roman empire was still around. Today, that is clearly a mistake. The three simple issues I raised here must be ignored to remain locked in on Rome and combining Dan 2 and 7. They are two very different prophecies. On top of the fact that Rome cannot be the Iron in Dan 2, for the same reason, it is long gone. The whole theory is a house of cards if indeed the text means what it says.

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    Re: Does Revelations Ch(13-14) Reveal Daniel (Ch 11&12)

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Please see my answer to Jesuslovesus in post #202. I compare Nebuchadnezzar's Dream in Dan 2 with Daniel's Vision in Dan 7. They seem to represent the same 4 kingdoms. In Dan 2 Daniel identifies the 1st Kingdom as Babylon.
    Got it.

    Saying that the Beast cannot rise "out of the earth" unless "the Abyss is opened" is a strange claim. It's strange because there is no explicit theology involved. These are visions, and unless there is careful interpretation you do not have theology. And yet here you're making theology out of visions, and the interpretation is sketchy. Would God have us base theology on visions without explicit theology?--no. Beyond that, I have no problem offering theories on the interpretation of these visions.
    As to the strange claim, John made it, not me.

    Revelation 11:7 When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the abyss/bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.

    The simple fact that the animals are identical in Dan 7 and Rev 13 should make us take notice. Further, Dan 7 and Revelation are the only places where beasts are discussed. (Outside of obvious beasts, like cattle.) That should set off alarm bells. The answer as to why there are three in Daniel and one in Revelation can only be understood from the book of Enoch as far as I know. Anyway, the beast ascends out of the abyss, and the abyss isn't opened in the land of Babylon until the 5th trumpet. It is a literal place in the earth that gets literally opened. The opened abyss, Abaddon, is mentioned several times in the OT. That is where the beast comes from.
    I didn't say Jesus returned in 70 AD! That is the Preterist position--not mine!

    You are conflating (in my opinion) two separate events. One, Christ will return, at his 2nd Coming, to the Mt. of Olives. He will visibly, physically return. (How long he will stay I don't know?) In the middle of that return he will be joined by immortal Christians, the Church of the NT Age. This will begin the Millennial Age, in which a whole new set of Christians will be born, along with many who will not become genuine Christians.

    Two, in the 1st Jewish War, 66-70 AD, it is a fact of history that Christians did flee to Pella. I don't know why you think this is false? It is a matter of historical record!

    So I see that you mention another incident in which there is a "fleeing," in Zech 14.5. Yes, I do believe that event will take place in the endtimes, about the time of Christ's return. But that is completely different, in my view, from the "fleeing" mentioned in the Olivet Discourse. That event took place, I believe, in the 1st Jewish War, 66-70 AD.
    You were talking about the OD fleeing this whole time? I was talking about the Zech 14:5 fleeing! No wonder. Sorry about that. I got you.

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    Re: Does Revelations Ch(13-14) Reveal Daniel (Ch 11&12)

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    What makes you believe the Mount of Olives splitting in two is *not literal*? We are told the mount of olives will split in two probably to create space for the fleeing Jews and it doesn't need to close back afterwards because the new earth will replace the old anyway. But Jesus standing on mount olives is figurative of his presence in Zion.
    This was prophesied before Jesus' first advent and He did stand on the mount of olives during His first advent. It split apart symbolically to make way for the living water(the Holy Spirit) that flowed out to the world through the disciples

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    Re: Does Revelations Ch(13-14) Reveal Daniel (Ch 11&12)

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    This was prophesied before Jesus' first advent and He did stand on the mount of olives during His first advent. It split apart symbolically to make way for the living water(the Holy Spirit) that flowed out to the world through the disciples
    LOL

    Or he actually fulfills literally, thats still possible right?

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    Re: Does Revelations Ch(13-14) Reveal Daniel (Ch 11&12)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    I think the explanations would be all over the place. Some think the beast is a man, some think it is a kingdom, and still some hold the possibility of a literal beast. Good luck.

    One thing I do find interesting is this. The beast rises from the abyss to kill the 2W in Rev 11. Then we read about one of the beast's seven heads receiving a fatal wound in Rev 13. Is it possible that the fatal wound is caused by some sort of retaliation in the interim period? The beast isn't fully explained in Rev 11 so this is just a theory on my part as to the timing of the fatal wound that is healed.

    “Who is like the beast? Who is ABLE to make war with him?”

    This leads me to think people fought against the beast and failed miserably. Who is ABLE to make war with him? Just guessing here.
    The beast that kills the 2W is the antichrist. We are told that his wound is caused by a sword:

    Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

    Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

    We can surmise that at some point an attempt will be made to kill the antichrist. I believe his survival will further play to his favour in persuading his sceptics that he is indeed god. After his scrape with death, he had an image set up and empowered to speak with the sole purpose of convincing all that he is god. Those who refuse to worship the image are killed.

    Nobody will be able to successfully make war against the beast because he has the power to war and overcome the saints.

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    Re: Does Revelations Ch(13-14) Reveal Daniel (Ch 11&12)

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Dan 2.39 “After you, another kingdom will arise, inferior to yours. Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule over the whole earth. 40 Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron—for iron breaks and smashes everything—and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others... 35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were all broken to pieces and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth."

    Dan 7.2 Daniel said: “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me were the four winds of heaven churning up the great sea. 3 Four great beasts, each different from the others, came up out of the sea... 7 “After that, in my vision at night I looked, and there before me was a fourth beast—terrifying and frightening and very powerful. It had large iron teeth; it crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. It was different from all the former beasts"... 13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,[a] coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed."

    These are two separate visions/dreams, and they both say the same thing: 4 kingdoms, the 4th kingdom different. Both visions end with the coming of the Kingdom of God. So they match, and many interpreters see that as the logical deduction. If so, then yes, Daniel identifies the 1st Kingdom as Babylon. I will not get into a war with you over this--this is indeed just my opinion. But it is not without basis, as you seem to allege.
    It is impossible to divorce the four beasts from eschatology because they all play a role in shaping the events of the end time. Daniel's vision of the "image" showcases the powerplay between the various kingdoms and their kings and their relation to Israel. Starting from Babylon, we see a succession of kingdoms overcome the former until they are themselves defeated. This will continue until the Ancient of Days comes and establishes his eternal kingdom.

    What all the beasts have in common is they all oppressed and subjugated Israel. The first kingdom was Babylon followed by Medo-Persian, then Greek and Rome.

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    Re: Does Revelations Ch(13-14) Reveal Daniel (Ch 11&12)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    Imo, none of the beasts in Revelation are the AC. The AC is destroyed by Jesus' coming to gather the elect at the 7th Trumpet. Thus shortening the days of tribulation for the elect's sake. Then Jesus is caught up in Rev 12 to cast out satan. Yes, the entire 1260 days of satan and the beasts come after Jesus has returned to gather the elect. I know right now this seems impossible. That is exactly what the chronological reading of Revelation reveals. Also, it confirms many of the OT passages such as these:

    Daniel 12:1 “At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation,
    Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book.

    Deliverance for "your people," the Jews, comes at the time when there shall be a time of trouble such as never before. That is what it says.

    Isaiah 16:1 Send the LAMB to the ruler of the land, From Sela to the wilderness, To the mount of the daughter of Zion. 2 For it shall be as a wandering bird thrown out of the nest; So shall be the daughters of Moab at the fords of the Arnon. 3 “Take counsel, execute judgment; Make your shadow like the night in the middle of the day; Hide the outcasts, Do not betray him who escapes. 4 Let My outcasts dwell with you, O Moab; Be a shelter to them from the face of the spoiler. For the extortioner is at an end, Devastation ceases, The oppressors are consumed out of the land.

    The extortioner is at an end. Moab is the wilderness in Rev 12 where the elect are sheltered from the spoiler, the beast. Notice Moab is east of Jerusalem. The exact direction they will flee when Jesus return to the Mount of Olives.

    Zechariah 14:3 Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. 4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. 5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee

    Since I know how difficult it is to believe satan and the beast come after Jesus return to gather the elect, I ask a few questions.

    When Jesus, the King of Kings, Lord of Lords, returns in great glory, why in the world do the people in Jerusalem need to flee?

    Zechariah 2:5 For I,’ says the Lord, ‘will be a wall of fire all around her, and I will be the glory in her midst.’”

    Why does Jesus need to be a wall of fire around his people after He has returned?

    I know how difficult this is to accept. Anyway, at least you can say you heard once.

    Isaiah 26:Come, my people, enter your chambers, And shut your doors behind you; Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment, Until the indignation is past. 21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity...27:1 In that day the Lord with His severe sword, great and strong, Will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent, Leviathan that twisted serpent; And He will slay the reptile that is in the sea.

    Satan, all his angels, and all the demons from the abyss, are also "inhabitants of the earth" by this point. Armageddon will the great battle of God Almighty indeed. God knows what He is doing and it is awesome!
    You said that none of the beasts in Revelation is the antichrist. This is incorrect.

    Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. -3-And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

    From the above John started by echoing Daniel's vision in Dan 7:4-6, and then follows with the dragon (satan) who in turns empowers the beast /antichrist. Verse 3 further confirms that the AC is the character that was given power by the dragon.

    To answer the rest of your questions, if you follow the chronology and the eschatological prophesies you'll see that Zech 2:5 corroborates with Zech 14:3-4. In Zech 2:2-9, an angel is assuring the prophet of God's protection of his people. Jesus will supernaturally protect Israel while they are in the desert. This is before his return to earth.

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