Calvinist - Arminianist - Other.....what am I?

[Iconoclast85]

Pbminimum;

We do , and we do... But there is no way I would post it here for it to be gutted by others.

There is no reason to conceal what you believe, or do not believe. This looks as if an attempt is being made to conceal something.
Some churches have a small one page statement that is a bare minimum. Some take a stand against certain teachings that members are a bit uncomfortable with.

Some of it, right up to the point that free will is neglected.

So what then do you believe election is? In posting to you it would help if you declare what you believe and do not believe so we do not have to guess.

But even he had places he dared not go concerning it.. unlike some on here.

can you think of one or two examples?

But yet you still didn't answer the question. And I did answer yours. That's telling.

I did give a short answer

You need to make time and let him know exactly where you stand. If not, don't say I didn't warn you. This is where division comes, through not be up front about what you believe, then are given a teaching position. People at the church I attend are not allowed to teach unless we are of one accord for the simple reason of unity. And also are not allowed to teach unless they have proven their faithfulness to the body after years of service.

This can be good or bad depending on what is taking place there.

Such a classic reformed answer... Exactly what is the whole counsel of God ?

Paul spoke of it in Acts 20.....it is every area of biblical truth. If it is revealed in scripture it is to be preached and taught.

The gospel of Jesus Christ.

In 1 cor15....twice Paul speaks of" the gospel according to the scriptures". Doctrine is always there.

The early church that spread like wildfire didn't do so because of theological doctrine. Heck...most of em couldn't read,

not so....the early church was mostly jewish people who had the oracles of God. The sermons described in acts 13-18 describe doctrinal content.

and there wasn't a New Testament bible yet.. The church flourished because of the message of Jesus Christ..

What you describe is the shell...the doctrine of the coming Christ was rooted in the ot scriptures....when you fragment it you break it off from the root....your result is a deficient teaching and proclamation of the truth.

When someone says " They don't preach the full counsel of God !" and just sat through a gospel message...well they just missed the full counsel of God.

I will explain what they mean....if I ask you what is the gospel....you will repeat the historical facts of the gospel


you will go to 1 cor15...and say; see here is the gospel...the death, burial, and resurrection....correct?
but it is the death....according to the scriptures....plural....Jesus did not just die from old age, or a heart attack. He died a Covenant death as mediator, and surety of His people, He died as High Priest interceding for "His people". It was a Covenant death, that is why it was good news, because He actually accomplished redemption for everyone believing......do you see the difference...this is a short example describing the proper teaching of the good news.

And further...If someone ever believes that they can even teach the full counsel of God ( in other words telling others all there is to know about God as revealed through scripture) , they can forget it. It's not achievable this side of heaven.

Wrong.... Paul is not saying that we can exhaust the knowledge of God perfectly...what he means is if it is revealed it needs to be taught, not avoided or censored as some churches, or church leaders would try and do.
The pastors son who was perhaps over zealous and might have lacked maturity on how to go about it, could see an attempt being made to silence the truth....so he and others did what they did....he might have had the right idea, but gone about it the wrong way.


Deut 29:29 speaks of secret things, and then that which is revealed that belongs to us.

So election is the full counsel of God now ? Come on man.

Now did I say that? I did not say that. It is however a core teaching which mant do not like and resist. Paul spoke of it everywhere, because Jesus did often. To avoid and quarantine it is to deny core truth, and then to offer a watered down idea is not what the Apostles did.

Wasn't the question... Would you come to church if Billy Graham was preaching at it

?
I did give a short answer. I would go...it would be okay . He was preaching more as an evangelist.... I as a believer already would prefer to hear expository preaching of the word as that is what edifies the saints.
His preaching was geared toward unsaved persons which should always be addressed as they are even in the church pews also.

You've already shown a disdain for alter calls , so I'm thinking not.

The altar call is an unscriptural carnal method introduced as part of Charles Finneys new measures....Finney later on in life lamented that most of his "converts" were a disgrace to Christianity and he would not do it if he could do it all over again.

You see, I could say your denial of the teaching is a mistake also....correct?
As you have insinuated to many people on this site many times.

PB....those kind of statements work both ways....you and others say you will not allow these teachings in your church, correct.
Those of us who believe the doctrines of grace understand those doctrines to be the TRUTH of GOD revealed in scripture.
So when you and others post you will not allow it in your church, we hear you saying...you will not allow the truth of God to be expressed in your church?

Truth as you see it , of course. But this is an exercise in futility, and no real point in discussing it. Agree ?

No...I do not agree. There is one truth, it belongs to God. The closer you or I get to it, the better off we are...In Acts 18 Pricilla and Aquilla instructed Apollos in the way of God, more perfectly......they did not agree to disagree, they did not put him on a "coffee break" they went back and forth and left the results to God.
I do not think it is futile. I have seen many change and grow, even whole churches.

I don't see it that way. I believe it's one and the same. These people questioned and were critical of the very presentation of the Gospel that saved them. To me, that's beyond understanding.

God can save a person and that person can think it happened one way. Then as He grows and learns comes to see it was all of God.
I have heard of people who were saved by first being in a cult, then studying themselves out of the cult teaching.
That does not mean I am going to recommend people start in cults???

It amazes me to hear anyone say that. According to logic itself , the reformed side of all people should absolutely agree that The Holy Spirit draws and reveals, not an education. One is of the mind and the other is of the heart.

God deals with the heart, then renews the mind eph4

[Pbminimum]

There is no reason to conceal what you believe, or do not believe. This looks as if an attempt is being made to conceal something.
Some churches have a small one page statement that is a bare minimum. Some take a stand against certain teachings that members are a bit uncomfortable with.

Coming from the guy who hasn't told his pastor that gives alter calls that he is reformed, this is really rich.

So what then do you believe election is? In posting to you it would help if you declare what you believe and do not believe so we do not have to guess.

It's based on the foreknowledge of God, and is offered to the whole world. We really shouldn't go here. You know where I stand , and I do you.

can you think of one or two examples?

Double Predestination ?

I did give a short answer

You gave a non answer. Yes or no will do. I said yes SO PLEASE JUST ANSWER DIRECTLY AS I DID.

This can be good or bad depending on what is taking place there.

You sure know a lot not to know anything ... about my particular body that is. But again another deflection. YOU NEED TO TELL YOUR PASTOR WHAT YOU BELIEVE INSTEAD OF CONCEALING YOUR DOCTRINE WHEN IT IS OBVIOUS IT DOESN'T LINE UP WITH YOUR LEADERSHIPS BECAUSE IT IS WRONG.

Paul spoke of it in Acts 20.....it is every area of biblical truth. If it is revealed in scripture it is to be preached and taught.

The attempt to teach "every area of biblical truth" is indeed the full counsel of God. Now ...Show me one pastor who has successfully DONE that . Not attempted , or is in the process of doing it, but actually done that. I will not hold my breath.

In 1 cor15....twice Paul speaks of" the gospel according to the scriptures". Doctrine is always there.

Yes, and ?

not so....the early church was mostly jewish people who had the oracles of God. The sermons described in acts 13-18 describe doctrinal content.

The gospel spread like a fire through the gentiles as well ..This is what I'm speaking of.

What you describe is the shell...the doctrine of the coming Christ was rooted in the ot scriptures....when you fragment it you break it off from the root....your result is a deficient teaching and proclamation of the truth.

That's laughable. You jump to conclusions much ? I'm not saying we don't share a biblical gospel. You are. And you don't know what your talking about. The simple FACT is when the gentiles received the gospel it was verbal in most cases but biblically based.

I will explain what they mean....if I ask you what is the gospel....you will repeat the historical facts of the gospel


you will go to 1 cor15...and say; see here is the gospel...the death, burial, and resurrection....correct?
but it is the death....according to the scriptures....plural....Jesus did not just die from old age, or a heart attack. He died a Covenant death as mediator, and surety of His people, He died as High Priest interceding for "His people". It was a Covenant death, that is why it was good news, because He actually accomplished redemption for everyone believing......do you see the difference...this is a short example describing the proper teaching of the good news.

Again, since you have never heard me share the Gospel , you are jumping to conclusions. This is another aspect of the reformed side that gets under my skin. You are once more jumping to conclusions and are insinuating that I am not sharing the complete story because I don't believe in sovereign predestined election as you do.

Wrong.... Paul is not saying that we can exhaust the knowledge of God perfectly...what he means is if it is revealed it needs to be taught, not avoided or censored as some churches, or church leaders would try and do.
The pastors son who was perhaps over zealous and might have lacked maturity on how to go about it, could see an attempt being made to silence the truth....so he and others did what they did....he might have had the right idea, but gone about it the wrong way.

Read 1 Cor 2 1-5 and get back with me.

Now did I say that? I did not say that. It is however a core teaching which mant do not like and resist. Paul spoke of it everywhere, because Jesus did often. To avoid and quarantine it is to deny core truth, and then to offer a watered down idea is not what the Apostles did.

You are insinuating it. Even now.

I did give a short answer. I would go...it would be okay . He was preaching more as an evangelist.... I as a believer already would prefer to hear expository preaching of the word as that is what edifies the saints.
His preaching was geared toward unsaved persons which should always be addressed as they are even in the church pews also.

A short answer is a yes or a no. Why is that so hard for you ?

The altar call is an unscriptural carnal method introduced as part of Charles Finneys new measures....Finney later on in life lamented that most of his "converts" were a disgrace to Christianity and he would not do it if he could do it all over again.

A call to repentance is not unscriptural. Read your bible.

PB....those kind of statements work both ways....you and others say you will not allow these teachings in your church, correct.
Those of us who believe the doctrines of grace understand those doctrines to be the TRUTH of GOD revealed in scripture.
So when you and others post you will not allow it in your church, we hear you saying...you will not allow the truth of God to be expressed in your church?

Ummm... yeah. The purpose of the statement was to show that it works both ways. Kind of my point.

No...I do not agree. There is one truth, it belongs to God. The closer you or I get to it, the better off we are...In Acts 18 Pricilla and Aquilla instructed Apollos in the way of God, more perfectly......they did not agree to disagree, they did not put him on a "coffee break" they went back and forth and left the results to God.
I do not think it is futile. I have seen many change and grow, even whole churches.

See above post. You just contradicted yourself.

God can save a person and that person can think it happened one way. Then as He grows and learns comes to see it was all of God.
I have heard of people who were saved by first being in a cult, then studying themselves out of the cult teaching.
That does not mean I am going to recommend people start in cults???

Are you insinuating that anything outside of predestined sovereign election is a cult ? Again. See the TWO above posts.

God deals with the heart, then renews the mind eph4

It begins at conversion though. The mind isn't transformed into anything until a man is born again. HE CANNOT SEE THE KINGDOM BEFORE THEN. So, which is it. Is man totally depraved or not ?

[Iconoclast85]

Pbminimum

What is your church website?
Does it have any sermons on it?
Are you the Pastor?
You should be able to supply these answers. What if I wanted to visit?
I am quite open about what I believe.

Coming from the guy who hasn't told his pastor that gives alter calls that he is reformed, is really rich.

I have not concealed a thing. The man who was teaching the class has spoken to me a few times, I gave him a copy of the Baptist catechism I use which is very detailed. The Pastor is also going to get one.
PB....I am not the topic of the OP am I?

It's based on the foreknowledge of God, and is offered to the whole world.

Election is "offered to the whole world"? interesting....

We really shouldn't go here. You know where I stand , and I do you.

I do not believe unless you cut and paste a link, I do not think you could describe what I believe accurately.
I know you do not believe what I do, that is for sure.....but you have not really answered anything , or offered a statement or link at all.
I asked you what your church believes on this.....If I knew...I would not ask. post the website and I will get a good idea what happens there.

Double Predestination ?

This is a vague statement. WHAT ABOUT IT?

You gave a non answer. Yes or no will do. I said yes SO PLEASE JUST ANSWER DIRECTLY AS I DID.

I would rather give a full answer for many reasons...

You sure know a lot not to know anything ... about my particular body that is.

Over the past 30 years I have visited many churches in all 48 states here....I know what I am looking at quite often just by what they do and do not do......As an example...I stopped in a large Baptist church in Ruston La. one time...On there Church statement they did not mention Jesus.....they did proclaim that they wanted to be known as the "church of the singing Christmas tree"....really large brick building , choir robes hanging up....but wanted to be known as the church of the singing Christmas tree.....sad.

But again another deflection

.
I commented on what you said your church did...there was no deflection as I am attempting to stay on topic.

YOU NEED TO TELL YOUR PASTOR WHAT YOU BELIEVE. CONCEALING YOUR DOCTRINE WHEN IT IS OBVIOUS IT DOESN'T LINE UP WITH YOUR LEADERSHIP IS WRONG.

The Pastor's theology is basically sound. Often times the unscriptural altar call almost contradicts and undermines what he himself just preached. In time I will gain a hearing with him and work through some issues together.....I have been through this 3 times already....all with good results. the peoplein the class are thankful to learn more about Our Lord and Saviour.

The attempt to teach "every area of biblical truth" is indeed the full counsel of God.

Now ...Show me one pastor who has successfully DONE that . Not attempted , or is in the process of doing it, but actually done that.

I could show you many...but for starters I will give you three men who went everywhere in scripture over decades of faithful ministry;

Go on sermonaudio....Look up the sermons of these men. Now I know that you will never listen to them all but if you look through the sermon titles you will see they cover anything and everything....

Albert N. Martin

Geoff Thomas

W.R. Downing

James White

Greg Nichols

Rich Jensen

I can name dozens of faithful men....the first 3 men are in their mid 70's and have dealt with all manner of teaching, write books, two of them spend 8-10 hours in their study daily writing books and putting down sermons from their ministries...they have prison ,and nursing home ministries, all other outreach.

I will not hold my breath.

No need to despair...I could literally recommend dozens of men right off the top of my head.
I will answer or defend anything taught by any of these men.....for the most part. on the main truths of scripture they are all in agreement.

The gospel spread like a fire through the gentiles as well ..This is what I'm speaking of.

The gentiles were brought up to speed quickly.

That's laughable. You jump to conclusions much ? I'm not saying we don't share a biblical gospel. You are

.

If you do what I described you should have no problem letting me listen to your last ten sermons.....I will be objective....post them, I will listen.

And you don't know what your talking about

.
That is simple enough my friend...post the sermons and show me wrong....I will admit if I am wrong....will you?

Is this the part when some would say..."put up. or shut up"? I will post dozens of sermons if you want, could you post the last ten in a row....or pick out your ten best ones that you would like me to listen to.....I will listen

Again, since you have never heard me share the Gospel , you are jumping to conclusions.

Again...I am asking you to supply them...I will listen. This reluctance is what I am speaking of.....do not hide your light under a bushel, put it on display...

This is another aspect of the reformed side that gets under my skin

.

You will find the "reformed side" to be dealing direct and want truth.....when they ask people to be truthful as believers should be they are avoided or censored. You would not allow an open dialogue at your church in a bible study or fellowship time because you would be fearful of it going where you are not prepared to go....You can show me wrong by openly posting your website.

You are once more jumping to conclusions and are insinuating that I am not sharing the complete story because I don't believe in sovereign predestined election as you do.

jumping to conclusions? insinuating?.......I am just reading what you post. When you do not post, I am left trying to play a theological pin the tail on the donkey I bet I am closer to the donkey than you will admit.

Now did I say that? I did not say that. It is however a core teaching which many do not like and resist. Paul spoke of it everywhere, because Jesus did often

.

To avoid and quarantine it is to deny core truth, and then to offer a watered down idea is not what the Apostles did.

You are insinuating it. Even now.

If you believed the same you would affirm it. I am reading your posts....


[

QUOTE]The altar call is an unscriptural carnal method introduced as part of Charles Finneys new measures....Finney later on in life lamented that most of his "converts" were a disgrace to Christianity and he would not do it if he could do it all over again.

A call to repentance is not unscriptural. Read your bible.

The message preached is the call to repentance....no need to tack on fleshly, carnal inventions.....

Are you insinuating that anything outside of predestined sovereign election is a cult ?

you did not understand my post once again....it was an example....you missed it.

[Pbminimum]

What is your church website?
Does it have any sermons on it?
Are you the Pastor?
You should be able to supply these answers. What if I wanted to visit?
I am quite open about what I believe.

I may private message you the site if I feel the need to. Otherwise, not gonna happen.

No.
No.

Your more than welcome to visit. But not welcome to teach sovereign predestined election.

I have not concealed a thing. The man who was teaching the class has spoken to me a few times, I gave him a copy of the Baptist catechism I use which is very detailed. The Pastor is also going to get one.
PB....I am not the topic of the OP am I?

It seems you have. It's also a red flag that your teaching a bible study group without already knowing where your pastor stands , and he not know where you stand. This wouldn't happen where I attend. We are of one accord in our doctrine and teaching.

Election is "offered to the whole world"? interesting....

Grace is offered to the whole world. But the elect are those who repent and believe and this is known beforehand in the foreknowledge of God. You know where I stand... No need in getting dramatic.

I do not believe unless you cut and paste a link, I do not think you could describe what I believe accurately.
I know you do not believe what I do, that is for sure.....but you have not really answered anything , or offered a statement or link at all.
I asked you what your church believes on this.....If I knew...I would not ask. post the website and I will get a good idea what happens there.

See above..

This is a vague statement. WHAT ABOUT IT?

From what I've read in the soul winner and all of grace Spurgeon would stop short of double predestination. It's been a couple years since I've read those , and even then not completely. but if memory serves then that's what I recollect. They question is, Do you stop short of double predestination ? If your a bona-fide 5 pointer then get all in and embrace it brother. Because that's where it's logical end goes.

I would rather give a full answer for many reasons...

Because yes and no are inadequate ? I don't expect and answer. Getting answers to questions like these from a Calvinist are like pulling teeth. Let your yes be yes and your no be no. Would you go to church if Billy Graham were preaching that Sunday ?

Over the past 30 years I have visited many churches in all 48 states here....I know what I am looking at quite often just by what they do and do not do......As an example...I stopped in a large Baptist church in Ruston La. one time...On there Church statement they did not mention Jesus.....they did proclaim that they wanted to be known as the "church of the singing Christmas tree"....really large brick building , choir robes hanging up....but wanted to be known as the church of the singing Christmas tree.....sad.

O.k. this is telling. So how long have you stayed at one body in the last 15 years ? Also , I assure you, this doesn't describe us.

.

I commented on what you said your church did...there was no deflection as I am attempting to stay on topic.

Yet you still have not answered the question and I'm no closer to knowing what you would do one way or the other. Why can't you just answer yes or no ?

The Pastor's theology is basically sound. Often times the unscriptural altar call almost contradicts and undermines what he himself just preached. In time I will gain a hearing with him and work through some issues together.....I have been through this 3 times already....all with good results. the peoplein the class are thankful to learn more about Our Lord and Saviour.

There it is... Ok.. listen to what I've been saying and look at your post.

1. The pastor's theology is basically sound . So , for now , your on board. But I detect a air of skepticism in your words.

2. The unscriptural alter call almost contradicts and undermines what he himself just preached. Look at your words of choice here... You can't say he's basically sound , then spout of this line. Your calling him a hypocrite and saying he is indeed unscriptural. Now, these are your words ...not mine.

3. In time I will gain a hearing with him and work through some issues together. You are being manipulative and your attitude AND WORDS OF CHOICE have already shown your opinion of this pastor who doesn't quite get it ...according to you.

4. The people are thankful to learn more about Jesus.. Brother... I hear you. loud and clear. Because , they obviously couldn't be getting taught by this pastor who gives alter calls and undermines his sermons...

THIS IS WHY YOU NEED TO TALK TO HIM IMMEDIATELY. Don't wait. This is how division creeps in. The people get attached to you , the small group teacher, who hasn't been forthcoming with the pastor about his doctrine, nor have you been forthcoming with your group. So , if and when it comes to a head, and you may or may not be allowed to teach anymore , the people go pastor hunting because they don't have a clue what the truth is. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT THAT I HAVE WITNESSED FIRST HAND...BUT IT WAS STOPPED EARLY ENOUGH THAT THE DAMAGE WAS MINIMIZED.

I said the attempt of it... not the execution of it, and especially not the completion of it.


I could show you many...but for starters I will give you three men who went everywhere in scripture over decades of faithful ministry;

Go on sermonaudio....Look up the sermons of these men. Now I know that you will never listen to them all but if you look through the sermon titles you will see they cover anything and everything....

Albert N. Martin

Geoff Thomas

W.R. Downing

James White

Greg Nichols

Rich Jensen

I can name dozens of faithful men....the first 3 men are in their mid 70's and have dealt with all manner of teaching, write books, two of them spend 8-10 hours in their study daily writing books and putting down sermons from their ministries...they have prison ,and nursing home ministries, all other outreach.

This is good.. But I'll never agree that a pastor can leave this life to the next having properly and completely taught the full counsel of God to it's fullest. That is my point.

No need to despair...I could literally recommend dozens of men right off the top of my head.
I will answer or defend anything taught by any of these men.....for the most part. on the main truths of scripture they are all in agreement.

o.k. but not to worry. I'm not in despair.

The gentiles were brought up to speed quickly.

Just wow....

The message preached is the call to repentance....no need to tack on fleshly, carnal inventions.....

I hear ya... I will continue to ask for a response.. And God will continue to draw the hearts... Call it what you will .

you did not understand my post once again....it was an example....you missed it.

You know how people like me can be ....

[Iconoclast85]

I may private message you the site if I feel the need to. Otherwise, not gonna happen.

No.
No.

Your more than welcome to visit. But not welcome to teach sovereign predestined election.



It seems you have. It's also a red flag that your teaching a bible study group without already knowing where your pastor stands , and he not know where you stand. This wouldn't happen where I attend. We are of one accord in our doctrine and teaching.





Grace is offered to the whole world. But the elect are those who repent and believe and this is known beforehand in the foreknowledge of God. You know where I stand... No need in getting dramatic.



See above..




From what I've read in the soul winner and all of grace Spurgeon would stop short of double predestination. It's been a couple years since I've read those , and even then not completely. but if memory serves then that's what I recollect. They question is, Do you stop short of double predestination ? If your a bona-fide 5 pointer then get all in and embrace it brother. Because that's where it's logical end goes.




Because yes and no are inadequate ? I don't expect and answer. Getting answers to questions like these from a Calvinist are like pulling teeth. Let your yes be yes and your no be no. Would you go to church if Billy Graham were preaching that Sunday ?




O.k. this is telling. So how long have you stayed at one body in the last 15 years ? Also , I assure you, this doesn't describe us.

.


Yet you still have not answered the question and I'm no closer to knowing what you would do one way or the other. Why can't you just answer yes or no ?



There it is... Ok.. listen to what I've been saying and look at your post.

1. The pastor's theology is basically sound . So , for now , your on board. But I detect a air of skepticism in your words.

2. The unscriptural alter call almost contradicts and undermines what he himself just preached. Look at your words of choice here... You can't say he's basically sound , then spout of this line. Your calling him a hypocrite and saying he is indeed unscriptural. Now, these are your words ...not mine.

3. In time I will gain a hearing with him and work through some issues together. You are being manipulative and your attitude AND WORDS OF CHOICE have already shown your opinion of this pastor who doesn't quite get it ...according to you.

4. The people are thankful to learn more about Jesus.. Brother... I hear you. loud and clear. Because , they obviously couldn't be getting taught by this pastor who gives alter calls and undermines his sermons...

THIS IS WHY YOU NEED TO TALK TO HIM IMMEDIATELY. Don't wait. This is how division creeps in. The people get attached to you , the small group teacher, who hasn't been forthcoming with the pastor about his doctrine, nor have you been forthcoming with your group. So , if and when it comes to a head, and you may or may not be allowed to teach anymore , the people go pastor hunting because they don't have a clue what the truth is. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT THAT I HAVE WITNESSED FIRST HAND...BUT IT WAS STOPPED EARLY ENOUGH THAT THE DAMAGE WAS MINIMIZED.




This is good.. But I'll never agree that a pastor can leave this life to the next having properly and completely taught the full counsel of God to it's fullest. That is my point.


o.k. but not to worry. I'm not in despair.





Just wow....




I hear ya... I will continue to ask for a response.. And God will continue to draw the hearts... Call it what you will .
















You know how people like me can be ....

Lol....well listen P B.....we differ much but I still can pray God will use you. We are communicating so that is a plus
Let me clarify a bit...This Pastor will preach a solid message explaining how sin has us apart from God.
He will urge sinners to repent and believe the gospel.
He will tell them that salvation is of the Lord......all is good....

To me and many others.....that is what the preaching is to be about as it touches all the bases.... no need to ask those there to do some physical action....move from one part of a building, to another part of the building....a baptist church has a pulpit, not an altar....we will leave that with the Roman church and unsaved Israelites.
Jesus cross is our altar.....the sinner needs to communicate with him in heaven now. Not in some emotional appeal to come forward, and make it certain....which is unscripural...that is another whole thread....

But this Pastor preaches fairly solidly and effective for his target audience...country folks....but then I think he is pressured by some in the church to do this ritual which has become to my view the golden calf of the modern church..Thankfully many are taking another look at this practice.

This other issue of my teaching is a distinct issue....

I have been a member of 3 churches....for an average of about 12 years in each one....
The first church was where I first went as a new believer....
Some of what we are discussing now started to become an issue...
I went to three different pastors for advice on how to proceed with caution.
I followed that advice and can see it was wise counsel and I use it still today.
The Lord provided an opportunity to transfer to another church that needed help at the time I met with the elders of the first church.....
The second church grew until we outgrew the building and had to merge with a larger church that was fading....the merge worked well....
A small group eventually formed again from the first church I was in, but they also needed to depart from there and start a new work, so I went there to help out.....it also grew very well...

Now I have moved south and there are many changes going on.
It looks as if this church is the answer to prayer that we have been offering for two years before the move.....another long story....

If you can pm me the website.... I will respond by pm also if you prefer.

[Noeb]

I know His ministry was to prove that He was the Messiah. Still during His ministry He did not allow His disciples to minister to any one except the Jews which fly in the face of love your neighbour as your self towards the Gentiles during the time of Jesus' ministry. Yes it changed after His resurrection and today it is for all, Jews and Gentiles.

Since what you are asking

"is why He did not minister to the Gentiles around Jerusalem or Israel. He went from place to place sometimes crossing those areas, but we never read of Him ministering to them. Also when He send out His apostles He instructed them not to go to them, why? I think I know why, but it is to me a good example of disproving this claim by some that God's grace was for all. Jesus ministry is an example that it was not."

Have you considered that maybe God wanted Israel to accept Jesus as Messiah? Not that they would, and he knew they wouldn't, it was prophesied, but their unbelief wasn't caused by God they did it completely on their own. It had to be that way for what God said to come to pass and for him to be just. Salvation was for Israel, so why would he have originally come to all? If he came for all and Gentiles believed, then what he prophesied would not have come true, and his word would not be true. Just think of all scripture and you'll answer your own question, but trying to use this as an example that he didn't love all or come for all isn't gong to cut it. Also prophesied was that he was coming for Gentiles too, but first he had to be rejected by Israel. After rejected he even referenced Gentiles in John as sheep he came to get and told disciples to go into all the world. It's very clear, all the way back to the law, grace was going to be for all, so no, telling "His disciples to" not "minister to any one except the Jews" does not "fly in the face of love your neighbour as your self".

[Pbminimum]

Lol....well listen P B.....we differ much but I still can pray God will use you. We are communicating so that is a plus
Let me clarify a bit...This Pastor will preach a solid message explaining how sin has us apart from God.
He will urge sinners to repent and believe the gospel.
He will tell them that salvation is of the Lord......all is good....

To me and many others.....that is what the preaching is to be about as it touches all the bases.... no need to ask those there to do some physical action....move from one part of a building, to another part of the building....a baptist church has a pulpit, not an altar....we will leave that with the Roman church and unsaved Israelites.
Jesus cross is our altar.....the sinner needs to communicate with him in heaven now. Not in some emotional appeal to come forward, and make it certain....which is unscripural...that is another whole thread....

But this Pastor preaches fairly solidly and effective for his target audience...country folks....but then I think he is pressured by some in the church to do this ritual which has become to my view the golden calf of the modern church..Thankfully many are taking another look at this practice.

This other issue of my teaching is a distinct issue....

I have been a member of 3 churches....for an average of about 12 years in each one....
The first church was where I first went as a new believer....
Some of what we are discussing now started to become an issue...
I went to three different pastors for advice on how to proceed with caution.
I followed that advice and can see it was wise counsel and I use it still today.
The Lord provided an opportunity to transfer to another church that needed help at the time I met with the elders of the first church.....
The second church grew until we outgrew the building and had to merge with a larger church that was fading....the merge worked well....
A small group eventually formed again from the first church I was in, but they also needed to depart from there and start a new work, so I went there to help out.....it also grew very well...

Now I have moved south and there are many changes going on.
It looks as if this church is the answer to prayer that we have been offering for two years before the move.....another long story....

If you can pm me the website.... I will respond by pm also if you prefer.

1. It's not funny.

2. I'm aware of the reformed sides misunderstanding and sometimes hatred for a call to repentance. Though I can't understand it. It's not about alter worship, it's about repentance. If this bothers you so badly how bout this. Find a church that doesn't give an invitation., or call to repentance, instead of trying to "fix" the one that does.

3. I guess I'm one of those simple country bumpkins that can't quite get the whole counsel of God either. Oh well.....

4. My communication with you will be on here, publically.. I have no desire to be nitpicked , as I am firm in my convictions.

5. Tell your pastor where you stand and don't sugar coat it. Recite the TULIP for him in depth as this is your doctrine.. THEN continue to teach if there is no division. If you are this forthcoming with your reformed doctrine here, with people you don't really know, I find it hard to believe you aren't teaching it in some capacity to those people that you do know.

[Iconoclast85]

1. It's not funny.

2. I'm aware of the reformed sides misunderstanding and sometimes hatred for a call to repentance. Though I can't understand it. It's not about alter worship, it's about repentance. If this bothers you so badly how bout this. Find a church that doesn't give an invitation., or call to repentance, instead of trying to "fix" the one that does.

3. I guess I'm one of those simple country bumpkins that can't quite get the whole counsel of God either. Oh well.....

4. My communication with you will be on here, publically.. I have no desire to be nitpicked , as I am firm in my convictions.

5. Tell your pastor where you stand and don't sugar coat it. Recite the TULIP for him in depth as this is your doctrine.. THEN continue to teach if there is no division. If you are this forthcoming with your reformed doctrine here, with people you don't really know, I find it hard to believe you aren't teaching it in some capacity to those people that you do know.

Keep something in mind, it is you who want to go down this road.
Biblical Christians know all about repentance. Your caricature does not cut it.
This tells me you have not heard any Reformed preaching as you cannot give one example of one who hates repentance.
No ,you do not grasp that concept as you suggest it is impossible to do....the whole counsel of God which Paul said he did.
I will work to edify any local assembly I am in, and to fight against ignorance and spiritual censorship that you suggest is a virtue . It is no wonder when people hear the truth they rejoice and reach out for it.
The fact that you will not post a website or links proves my earlier point..... if I were to look at it we both know it will be spot on to what I said earlier. That is the only reason you will not disclose it, you know it was right.

Then you try and turn the tables on me, as if any time I visit a church I must kick in the back door like in the old cowboy movies and announce I am here and a Calvinist, and will shoot any Arminianism on sight.
I can come in with a bible in each holster and look to attack rather than to edify.....oh no...no Calvinism for you,

Calvinism is a nickname for the gospel when rightly preached and taught as Spurgeon spoke of it.....so you are announcing....no truth wanted here.....we will make up our own little version of it.....have our little carnal altar call, then invent the false teaching of the carnal Christian theory to explain the goats who come out week after week who do not want sheep food.....but they walked the aisle, they signed the card...osas.....no matter how they live

Yeah I have seen this more than a few times.....let's pray for johnny....he made a decision 4 years ago, but has not been to church in 3 .5 years and of course he has that drinking problem, and his marriage is failing, but he came forward that day......no fruit of the Spirit.....but who are we to judge.....yes I know what happens....
So no need to attempt to.lecture me about what you do. You will give an account of yourself to God...as I also will.
I will teach the whole counsel of God and not handicap the people to eventually get swept up by the entertainment based mega churches waiting to get untaught masses to come to a "satellite campus and listen to an Andy Stanley tell them they do not need to repent and can pick and choose which parts of the Bible are needful ,suggesting the virgin birth is not essential to the gospel......no thanks my friend....I go with what I know.

[Pbminimum]

]Keep something in mind, it is you who want to go down this road.
Biblical Christians know all about repentance.

I'm not only talking about Christians , but also unbelievers , that fill churches all across America every week. They know nothing of biblical repentance unless taught and given the opportunity to exercise it.

Your caricature does not cut it.This tells me you have not heard any Reformed preaching as you cannot give one example of one who hates repentance.
No ,you do not grasp that concept as you suggest it is impossible to do....the whole counsel of God which Paul said he did.
I will work to edify any local assembly I am in, and to fight against ignorance and spiritual censorship that you suggest is a virtue . It is no wonder when people hear the truth they rejoice and reach out for it.
The fact that you will not post a website or links proves my earlier point..... if I were to look at it we both know it will be spot on to what I said earlier. That is the only reason you will not disclose it, you know it was right.

Your mixing my words. I said the CALL to repentance , not repentance itself... so no.

Also, you will work to sow division. Not unity...That is what your saying. Find a church that believes as you do. Why don't you ask them for their proclamation of faith, then join the one you line up with instead of asking me for one. OR going into a body with the mindset of straightening out the ignorant masses. This isn't censorship on out part , it's unity. And people like you cause division plain and simple.

Then you try and turn the tables on me, as if any time I visit a church I must kick in the back door like in the old cowboy movies and announce I am here and a Calvinist, and will shoot any Arminianism on sight.
I can come in with a bible in each holster and look to attack rather than to edify.....oh no...no Calvinism for you,

That's akin to what I've witnessed from the reformed side. But see, in a mature body where the Gospel is the focus and not sovereign predestined election.....well those people are exposed quickly. As you would be if in our body. But being less than up front is worse than kicking in the door in my opinion.

Calvinism is a nickname for the gospel when rightly preached and taught as Spurgeon spoke of it.....so you are announcing....no truth wanted here.....we will make up our own little version of it.....have our little carnal altar call, then invent the false teaching of the carnal Christian theory to explain the goats who come out week after week who do not want sheep food.....but they walked the aisle, they signed the card...osas.....no matter how they live

According to your doctrine.

Yeah I have seen this more than a few times.....let's pray for johnny....he made a decision 4 years ago, but has not been to church in 3 .5 years and of course he has that drinking problem, and his marriage is failing, but he came forward that day......no fruit of the Spirit.....but who are we to judge.....yes I know what happens....
So no need to attempt to.lecture me about what you do. You will give an account of yourself to God...as I also will.
I will teach the whole counsel of God and not handicap the people to eventually get swept up by the entertainment based mega churches waiting to get untaught masses to come to a "satellite campus and listen to an Andy Stanley tell them they do not need to repent and can pick and choose which parts of the Bible are needful ,suggesting the virgin birth is not essential to the gospel......no thanks my friend....I go with what I know.

You know nothing of the church I attend. NOTHING... What we see is Johnny seeing that a changed life is proof of the Gospel's affect in his life. I have seen many changed through the Gospel message. MANY.. These are the ones I see AFTER conversion. Ok..

AGAIN... tell your pastor who you are. If you argue this vehemently here, I can only imagine what you would do in person. So, instead of causing division in the name of enlightening ignorant church members , why not find a body that is reformed and doesn't give this blasphemous alter call ? I know this makes too much sense and all, but you really should do it.

You've exposed yourself better than I ever could by your own words. And it's not necessarily about the theology you subscribe to... but more about the way you are teaching it ( or will eventually teach it because after all the Gospel message isn't the full Gospel message without sovereign predestined election attached to it , again...your words not mine ) and also the words you choose to say concerning how you disagree with others who aren't on board.

Bottom line ... You aren't of the same accord as your body.... from what you have told me...You intend to shed the true light ... from what you have told me.... and this will indeed cause division. Write it down.

[Iconoclast85]

I'm not only talking about Christians , but also unbelievers , that fill churches all across America every week. They know nothing of biblical repentance unless taught and given the opportunity to exercise it.



Your mixing my words. I said the CALL to repentance , not repentance itself... so no.

Also, you will work to sow division. Not unity...That is what your saying. Find a church that believes as you do. Why don't you ask them for their proclamation of faith, then join the one you line up with instead of asking me for one. OR going into a body with the mindset of straightening out the ignorant masses. This isn't censorship on out part , it's unity. And people like you cause division plain and simple.



That's akin to what I've witnessed from the reformed side. But see, in a mature body where the Gospel is the focus and not sovereign predestined election.....well those people are exposed quickly. As you would be if in our body. But being less than up front is worse than kicking in the door in my opinion.


According to your doctrine.



You know nothing of the church I attend. NOTHING... What we see is Johnny seeing that a changed life is proof of the Gospel's affect in his life. I have seen many changed through the Gospel message. MANY.. These are the ones I see AFTER conversion. Ok..

AGAIN... tell your pastor who you are. If you argue this vehemently here, I can only imagine what you would do in person. So, instead of causing division in the name of enlightening ignorant church members , why not find a body that is reformed and doesn't give this blasphemous alter call ? I know this makes too much sense and all, but you really should do it.

You've exposed yourself better than I ever could by your own words. And it's not necessarily about the theology you subscribe to... but more about the way you are teaching it ( or will eventually teach it because after all the Gospel message isn't the full Gospel message without sovereign predestined election attached to it , again...your words not mine ) and also the words you choose to say concerning how you disagree with others who aren't on board.

Bottom line ... You aren't of the same accord as your body.... from what you have told me...You intend to shed the true light ... from what you have told me.... and this will indeed cause division. Write it down.

Your twisting of my words does not change the content. In a mature body all the verses are preached and taught, not quarantined.
I am not arguing at all. There is no need to argue. You have declared you do not want these teachings.
Just like those in Acts 13 and in ch,18 who did not want to hear it....others will.
I offered you several men who preach the whole counsel of God.....did you listen or at leastoak at the sermon titles
Going all through the bible?....

You say to be up front, I say I will defend most anything those men preach so you can listen and show where it is error. I would Ike to see what you find fault with.
You made a statement that reformed men have a hatred of repentance.....I asked for one example, or two if you believe you can prove your unfounded assertion.

You can avoid truth if you like, I do not force it as I know it is God alone who can reveal His truth in His time...

Wait maybe I can come to your church and with every head bowed and eyes closed....whosoever will desire to learn about Election can come forward as the organist plays just as I am about 32 times......this way if people do not want to see it they can just keep their eyes closed.

[Pbminimum]

Your twisting of my words does not change the content. In a mature body all the verses are preached and taught, not quarantined.
I am not arguing at all. There is no need to argue. You have declared you do not want these teachings.
Just like those in Acts 13 and in ch,18 who did not want to hear it....others will.
I offered you several men who preach the whole counsel of God.....did you listen or at leastoak at the sermon titles
Going all through the bible?....

You say to be up front, I say I will defend most anything those men preach so you can listen and show where it is error. I would Ike to see what you find fault with.
You made a statement that reformed men have a hatred of repentance.....I asked for one example, or two if you believe you can prove your unfounded assertion.

You can avoid truth if you like, I do not force it as I know it is God alone who can reveal His truth in His time...

Wait maybe I can come to your church and with every head bowed and eyes closed....whosoever will desire to learn about Election can come forward as the organist plays just as I am about 32 times......this way if people do not want to see it they can just keep their eyes closed.

Hmm. I say you have a hatred for the call to repentance... And you do. Look at what you posted and say otherwise.

But the kicker is this. YOU GO TO A CHURCH THAT GIVES THE SAME CALL TO REPENTANCE...But, you have no division with that body ? Come on man.

This is my point you are making for me.

Thank you.

[Athanasius]

Hmm. I say you have a hatred for the call to repentance... And you do. Look at what you posted and say otherwise.

But the kicker is this. YOU GO TO A CHURCH THAT GIVES THE SAME CALL TO REPENTANCE...But, you have no division with that body ? Come on man.

This is my point you are making for me.

Thank you.

Just admit that you're 100% wrong about everything

[Pbminimum]

Just admit that you're 100% wrong about everything

I know, .... That's the only way to make it go away.

I don't have a problem with Calvinist's.. truthfully. I don't. I don't think because they don't adhere to the same doctrine I do , that they are lost. They just interpret some scriptures differently. But I hope we can all say it's faith in Christ alone that saves, and I think most of us on here agree with that.

My point he was making for me is that if you consider yourself a 5 point full blown Calvinist, then go to a church where you are around people who interpret the scriptures the same way. Who are of one accord as you. But to say that you are teaching a class, and getting plugged in with the members out of one side of your mouth...then blasting an invitation at the end of a service like it's heretical out of the other side of your mouth....makes zero sense to me. Especially , when it's happening AT A CHURCH THAT THE SAME PERSON CHOOSES TO ATTEND. This is one of the major issues I have with Calvinist's .. They come in undercover, not really admitting what they believe.

ICON... if you have any integrity whatsoever, then you need to inform your pastor about what you truly believe about the invitation he is giving ...Maybe you can print your last post and tell him that this is how you feel... BECAUSE IT IS... I doubt that it happens , but it's the right thing to do.

[Iconoclast85]

Hmm. I say you have a hatred for the call to repentance... And you do. Look at what you posted and say otherwise.

But the kicker is this. YOU GO TO A CHURCH THAT GIVES THE SAME CALL TO REPENTANCE...But, you have no division with that body ? Come on man.

This is my point you are making for me.

Thank you.

Twice I posted that the call to repent is part of the message preached, not a fleshly add on tacked on at the end....
You can go back and read it.
If you want to make assertions as you have be ready to back them up with documentation please.
No.... at this point I see no division whatsoever because there is none.
I have a good feeling that the Pastor and I will get along just fine.....He is starting a series on Romans so we will see in short order....
Well we exchanged some ideas but I have to say I am not feeling the love here.....no psalm 133 is not taking place right now, but there is always tomorrow .

[Iconoclast85]

I know, .... That's the only way to make it go away.

I don't have a problem with Calvinist's.. truthfully. I don't. I don't think because they don't adhere to the same doctrine I do , that they are lost. They just interpret some scriptures differently. But I hope we can all say it's faith in Christ alone that saves, and I think most of us on here agree with that.

My point he was making for me is that if you consider yourself a 5 point full blown Calvinist, then go to a church where you are around people who interpret the scriptures the same way. Who are of one accord as you. But to say that you are teaching a class, and getting plugged in with the members out of one side of your mouth...then blasting an invitation at the end of a service like it's heretical out of the other side of your mouth....makes zero sense to me. Especially , when it's happening AT A CHURCH THAT THE SAME PERSON CHOOSES TO ATTEND. This is one of the major issues I have with Calvinist's .. They come in undercover, not really admitting what they believe.

ICON... if you have any integrity whatsoever, then you need to inform your pastor about what you truly believe about the invitation he is giving ...Maybe you can print your last post and tell him that this is how you feel... BECAUSE IT IS... I doubt that it happens , but it's the right thing to do.

As far as the Pastor goes it will happen in God's time. I think he likes what he's heard has had many past is in the past this isn't the first time I've been in a similar situation and I've seen the pastor's completely turn around on your view of this