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Thread: Jewish Diaspora

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    Jewish Diaspora

    It would help if anybody has the depth to broadly look at how biblical prophecy views the Jewish Diaspora? What do you think Bible Prophecy describes it as? For how long? What does it consist of? What will keep Israel together as a people? Does God make any provision for the Jews while they remain non-Christian? If so, what help do they get?

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    Re: Jewish Diaspora

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    It would help if anybody has the depth to broadly look at how biblical prophecy views the Jewish Diaspora? What do you think Bible Prophecy describes it as? For how long? What does it consist of?
    To my knowledge, the diaspora is only casually mentioned in scripture. First, Daniel 9 says Jesus would destroy the city and sanctuary and appoint the city to desolations. We don't really know how long the "desolation" of Jerusalem will be. (Whether its desolation is ended yet is debatable.) Two, we know of many end time prophecies that include Jews in Jerusalem and Israel. Therefore, the diaspora ends at some point, if it hasn't already technically ended.

    What will keep Israel together as a people?
    I think it is God who has kept Israel together throughout the centuries. Most cultures have come and gone during the last 2500 years, but Jewish culture remains even without a homeland for most of that time. To me, that could only be done supernaturally. If America were driven into all the other nations, the American culture would be history very quickly.

    Does God make any provision for the Jews while they remain non-Christian? If so, what help do they get?
    I do believe God has His hand in keeping Israel even while they suffer in disbelief. His covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is not conditional.

    As to the help, I do not know how they were helped during the diaspora specifically. Now that they are back in the land, I have read of prophets getting a word from God and giving it to the Israeli gov't. One in particular, that I know of from the late 90's and 2001, prophesied the end of Netanyahu's first term after agreeing to give up land for peace. Then he told how Sharon would be elected even though he was 40 points down with a couple of months until the election. He told of how Sharon would be struck down after giving up land for peace, and Netanyahu would be given another chance. The "prophet" told many things, most all of which has come true. One major part that remains is that Netanyahu would restore the tabernacle of David. We'll see. If indeed God is directing the steps of Israel, the benefit is self evident. Imagine if God sent prophets to the American president on a regular basis. Is there any greater help than that?

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    Re: Jewish Diaspora

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    To my knowledge, the diaspora is only casually mentioned in scripture. First, Daniel 9 says Jesus would destroy the city and sanctuary and appoint the city to desolations. We don't really know how long the "desolation" of Jerusalem will be. (Whether its desolation is ended yet is debatable.) Two, we know of many end time prophecies that include Jews in Jerusalem and Israel. Therefore, the diaspora ends at some point, if it hasn't already technically ended.



    I think it is God who has kept Israel together throughout the centuries. Most cultures have come and gone during the last 2500 years, but Jewish culture remains even without a homeland for most of that time. To me, that could only be done supernaturally. If America were driven into all the other nations, the American culture would be history very quickly.



    I do believe God has His hand in keeping Israel even while they suffer in disbelief. His covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is not conditional.

    As to the help, I do not know how they were helped during the diaspora specifically. Now that they are back in the land, I have read of prophets getting a word from God and giving it to the Israeli gov't. One in particular, that I know of from the late 90's and 2001, prophesied the end of Netanyahu's first term after agreeing to give up land for peace. Then he told how Sharon would be elected even though he was 40 points down with a couple of months until the election. He told of how Sharon would be struck down after giving up land for peace, and Netanyahu would be given another chance. The "prophet" told many things, most all of which has come true. One major part that remains is that Netanyahu would restore the tabernacle of David. We'll see. If indeed God is directing the steps of Israel, the benefit is self evident. Imagine if God sent prophets to the American president on a regular basis. Is there any greater help than that?
    Thanks for your response. I didn't expect much...at least not right away. It's a little treacherous. Thanks for your bravery....

    I agree with much of your sentiment. I do believe something has held the Jewish culture together as an ethnicity. Part of it is their religion--not necessarily the false aspect of their religion, but more, the hope in Messiah part of their religion. The hope in their restoration as a State.

    As far as the Bible goes, I think there are some possible glimpses, such as...

    Hosea 3.4 For the Israelites will live many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred stones, without ephod or household gods. 5 Afterward the Israelites will return and seek the Lord their God and David their king. They will come trembling to the Lord and to his blessings in the last days.

    But the big picture comes from the collective picture in the Prophets that Israel would go into captivity, both to the Assyrians and to the Babylonians. Their restoration, under Persia, was depicted as inglorious and miniscule. And the arrival of Messiah would be a disaster--he would be cut off, and made a sacrifice of atonement. The result would be the fall of Jerusalem and the temple, as you noted, leading to an age-long Great Tribulation for the Jewish people.

    This is how I've seen it. I just wondered if there were other perspectives. Perhaps not. Thanks!

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    Re: Jewish Diaspora

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    It would help if anybody has the depth to broadly look at how biblical prophecy views the Jewish Diaspora? What do you think Bible Prophecy describes it as? For how long? What does it consist of? What will keep Israel together as a people? Does God make any provision for the Jews while they remain non-Christian? If so, what help do they get?
    Being a Greek word, diaspora only occurs in the NT and only three times:

    Joh 7:35 Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?

    Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

    and

    1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

    Then there's diaspero which occurs in Acts 8:1, Acts 8:4, Acts 11:19 where it's translated as scattered abroad . In Acts diaspero points to the persecution by Saul, so this is not what we usually think of in context with diaspora.

    The Hebrew word for diaspora is poots and occurs a lot of times and is translated mostly as scattered or scattered abroad , for example in Gen. 11:4:

    Gen 11:4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

    The first time it is used of Israel is:

    Deu 30:3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.

    This points to the diaspora , because of the all the nations , and the length is not known, we only know when it started: 70 AD.

    Then there is the Babylonian and Assyrian captivity which AFAIK is not called a diaspora, because although the were taken out of the country, they were taken to one place (Babylon or Assyria) and not scattered.

    It is God who keeps Israel intact even while scattered:

    1Sa 12:22 For the LORD will not forsake his people for his great name's sake: because it hath pleased the LORD to make you his people.

    I think - based on observation of history - the only help Israel gets now is preservation, otherwise Satan would destroy them completely so there is nothing for the Lord to return to in His second coming. I'm aware this is brief and far from complete but it's the best I can do for now.

    Aristarkos

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    Re: Jewish Diaspora

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    Being a Greek word, diaspora only occurs in the NT and only three times:
    Joh 7:35 Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?

    Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

    and

    1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

    Then there's diaspero which occurs in Acts 8:1, Acts 8:4, Acts 11:19 where it's translated as scattered abroad . In Acts diaspero points to the persecution by Saul, so this is not what we usually think of in context with diaspora.

    The Hebrew word for diaspora is poots and occurs a lot of times and is translated mostly as scattered or scattered abroad , for example in Gen. 11:4:
    Gen 11:4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

    The first time it is used of Israel is:
    Deu 30:3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.

    This points to the diaspora , because of the all the nations , and the length is not known, we only know when it started: 70 AD.

    Then there is the Babylonian and Assyrian captivity which AFAIK is not called a diaspora, because although the were taken out of the country, they were taken to one place (Babylon or Assyria) and not scattered.

    It is God who keeps Israel intact even while scattered:
    1Sa 12:22 For the LORD will not forsake his people for his great name's sake: because it hath pleased the LORD to make you his people.

    I think - based on observation of history - the only help Israel gets now is preservation, otherwise Satan would destroy them completely so there is nothing for the Lord to return to in His second coming. I'm aware this is brief and far from complete but it's the best I can do for now.

    Aristarkos
    Brief or not, I think it's very helpful to the subject. Yes, the word "dispersion" is key. I'm not sure how many other words are used for Diaspora, but "dispersion" is an important one, it seems. The only thing I disagree with you about is your sense that the Diaspora does not apply to the captivities. In fact that is how the Jews view their own history, and how secular sources view their history, that the Jewish Diaspora, expulsion from the land and dispersion, actually is to be dated from the captivities. I understand that there was initially a focus upon a limited captivity, the captivity of the Assyrians or the captivity of the Babylonians. But the whole idea seems to be that once they are forcibly removed from their country they are in Diaspora, as long as they remain outside of their country. The idea of a "dispersion" then transcends this simple removal from the land of Israel. "Dispersion" is a more broad scattering of Israel into other places, ultimately encompassing the whole world. So what began in Assyria or in Babylon has eventually evolved into a world-wide migration for the Jewish people. This may be because there has not been a secure homeland in the area we now call Palestine.

    But I do agree that 70 AD was a launch date for the NT period of Jewish dispersion. I'm only saying that history records it is a *continuation* of what already existed from the time of the captivities. I'm not saying this--history has said that.

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    Re: Jewish Diaspora

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post

    [...]

    The only thing I disagree with you about is your sense that the Diaspora does not apply to the captivities.

    [...]
    I'm not saying it doesn't apply, I'm saying as far as I know Scriptures don't call it that. The idea of the Greek word diaspora and the Hebrew word poots is finding traces just about everywhere. Like flyers from a plane that end up everywhere in a city. My first quote:

    Gen 11:4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
    Describes the idea behind the words best. People ended up literally all over the planet as do the Jews, that's what these words mean.

    Aristarkos

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    Re: Jewish Diaspora

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    It would help if anybody has the depth to broadly look at how biblical prophecy views the Jewish Diaspora? What do you think Bible Prophecy describes it as? For how long? What does it consist of? What will keep Israel together as a people? Does God make any provision for the Jews while they remain non-Christian? If so, what help do they get?
    Other than cultural pride, nationalism, and social reasons (no different than other people-groups might have); what benefit spiritually and in relation to Christ, does 'keeping Israel together as a people' (as you word it) benefit them biblically?

    Let me frame this using my snakebite analogy.

    A building is filled with a thousand people. As each are born, then are given snake-venom. Eventually they will die from the snake venom.

    There is one antidote; and only Jesus Christ can provide the antidote for any of them, but is willing to give it freely to all of them, if they seek and trust Him and ask for it.

    For those who do not seek or want the antivenom; because they refuse to talk to, accept, or believe Jesus is the way to the antidote; does it matter where in the building they choose to live?

    Is where they live and who they associate with in the building really any germane point at all; or is the sole point for them, that they are soon going to die because they refuse to accept the snake venom antidote from the only one that can provide it to them?

    Are the material things within the build worth anything more than clanging brass and rusting metal to them?

    From God's perspective, what is His sole goal for any of them in this situation?

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    Re: Jewish Diaspora

    No prophetic relevance at all, imo. Yet the believer, above all others, with the means and power available to the free world and a keen understanding of history, sees the benefit, humanity and decency of protecting Israel and maintaining a homeland for the Jews.


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    Re: Jewish Diaspora

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    It would help if anybody has the depth to broadly look at how biblical prophecy views the Jewish Diaspora? What do you think Bible Prophecy describes it as? For how long? What does it consist of? What will keep Israel together as a people? Does God make any provision for the Jews while they remain non-Christian? If so, what help do they get?
    I am glad you raised this subject because it has been ongoing since 70AD. We see every aspect of prophecy concerning the Jews and Israel being fulfilled in every age. The prophets warned that they would become a "byword" if they continue to sin. God himself repeated the same when Solomon dedicated the temple to him:

    1 Kings 9:7 Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people:
    Ps 44:14

    The Jews have indeed become a byword and consequently have suffered unjustly for as long as anyone can remember. But in the midst of their distress God has remarkably continued to bless them. The irony is that many people especially non-Arabs also hate the Jews without really knowing why.

    It is noteworthy that the Habsburg empire would not have been so great without Jewish money. That said, I believe their Diaspora will ultimately end when Messiah returns. God is known for equity for he chastises and brings back into his bosom upon repentance. I don't see any prospect of a final restoration prior to Christ's return. Irrespective of the lack of peace between Israel and their neighbours, many Jews in diaspora are so comfortable especially some in the US and the UK that even if by some miracle security is guaranteed with the Arabs, they will still not return. Therefore, only Jesus can make ALL Jews return to Israel.

    We have seen their unnatural ability to survive and thrive again and again. I can only attribute this feat to the divine. So to your question "what will keep Israel together as a people"? The answer is God's eternal promise of their reconciliation and redemption. If they cease to exist as a people, God would be a liar and we know he's not. Yes, God's providence is evident in Israel's prosperity even as they remain non-Christian. Take their percentage of the world's population and compare it to their contributions in every aspect: from science to finance, music, medicine etc., and it is not difficult to see the hand of God in their accomplishments.

    I don't believe they will get any more help than they already have. As the state of Israel continues to thrive, with the US deterring any major attack from their numerous enemies, the focus is now beginning to shift to their relationship with Yeshua. But their conversion sadly remains lethargic and I dare speculate that God may allow something happen that would shake them to the core to galvanize a major revival. I suspect they have become too comfortable with their back against Christ.

    I'm sure Fenris will have a thing or two say if he's still with us. How I miss him: lol:

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    Re: Jewish Diaspora

    Quote Originally Posted by IMINXTC View Post
    No prophetic relevance at all, imo. Yet the believer, above all others, with the means and power available to the free world and a keen understanding of history, sees the benefit, humanity and decency of protecting Israel and maintaining a homeland for the Jews.
    IMINXTC, forgive my intrusion but your Avatar looks like an Indian idol, have you considered replacing it with something else?

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    Re: Jewish Diaspora

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    IMINXTC, forgive my intrusion but your Avatar looks like an Indian idol, have you considered replacing it with something else?
    No, it's not an idol. Merely modern, surreal art. The title I believe, is " Thoughts."

    Reproduction of a painting.


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    Re: Jewish Diaspora

    Quote Originally Posted by IMINXTC View Post
    No, it's not an idol. Merely modern, surreal art. The title I believe, is " thought."
    Thanks for clarifying. I've stared at it for too long without making head or tail of what it is only that it reminds me of Hindu gods.

    Thanks once again for not been offended.

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    Re: Jewish Diaspora

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Thanks for clarifying. I've stared at it for too long without making head or tail of what it is only that it reminds me of Hindu gods.

    Thanks once again for not been offended.
    Not at all. Thanks!


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    Re: Jewish Diaspora

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Thanks for your response. I didn't expect much...at least not right away. It's a little treacherous. Thanks for your bravery....

    I agree with much of your sentiment. I do believe something has held the Jewish culture together as an ethnicity. Part of it is their religion--not necessarily the false aspect of their religion, but more, the hope in Messiah part of their religion. The hope in their restoration as a State.

    As far as the Bible goes, I think there are some possible glimpses, such as...

    Hosea 3.4 For the Israelites will live many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred stones, without ephod or household gods. 5 Afterward the Israelites will return and seek the Lord their God and David their king. They will come trembling to the Lord and to his blessings in the last days.

    But the big picture comes from the collective picture in the Prophets that Israel would go into captivity, both to the Assyrians and to the Babylonians. Their restoration, under Persia, was depicted as inglorious and miniscule. And the arrival of Messiah would be a disaster--he would be cut off, and made a sacrifice of atonement. The result would be the fall of Jerusalem and the temple, as you noted, leading to an age-long Great Tribulation for the Jewish people.

    This is how I've seen it. I just wondered if there were other perspectives. Perhaps not. Thanks!
    It is difficult to know for sure which diaspora Hosea is talking about here. It seems possible to me that he is prophesying about the diaspora to come from the AC as they return to God and David afterward.

    I often wonder if much of the "adultery" in the OT is about the false gods of millions of offspring of Jacob that do not even know they are Jewish. We know the ten tribes were taken to the Medes' territory. Half the people in the middle east could be descendants of Jacob and not know it. Who knows? God knows, and His covenant technically involves all of them as well. Jews today don't know Jesus, and many are atheists, but they aren't worshiping false gods.

    As to the Great Tribulation of Jews, that started in Egypt. Not much has changed really. They have been satan's targets from the beginning.

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    Re: Jewish Diaspora

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Other than cultural pride, nationalism, and social reasons (no different than other people-groups might have); what benefit spiritually and in relation to Christ, does 'keeping Israel together as a people' (as you word it) benefit them biblically?

    Let me frame this using my snakebite analogy.

    A building is filled with a thousand people. As each are born, then are given snake-venom. Eventually they will die from the snake venom.

    There is one antidote; and only Jesus Christ can provide the antidote for any of them, but is willing to give it freely to all of them, if they seek and trust Him and ask for it.

    For those who do not seek or want the antivenom; because they refuse to talk to, accept, or believe Jesus is the way to the antidote; does it matter where in the building they choose to live?

    Is where they live and who they associate with in the building really any germane point at all; or is the sole point for them, that they are soon going to die because they refuse to accept the snake venom antidote from the only one that can provide it to them?

    Are the material things within the build worth anything more than clanging brass and rusting metal to them?

    From God's perspective, what is His sole goal for any of them in this situation?
    Yes, sorry, I've been suffering from my broadband supplier... Internet's working again. Very good question. Whether or not you agree, here's my view of it. On the surface of it, it doesn't seem being a Jew in one house is any different from dying in another house. But I do think it's a little more complicated than that--not that Jews are any more important than say the English are, or Germans are.

    The issue with the Jews has to do with God's integrity with respect to His word. So the situation surrounding the Jews is, I believe, different than how it has been around other peoples. But as other peoples convert to Christianity they become, in a sense, "people of the Book" as well. And coming under a covenant a nation acquires a destiny, a responsibility, and faces different consequences than other countries. That nation also obtains a place in God's promises, because God invests in people, and expects a return out of them. If He doesn't get a return right away, He cannot be discouraged. He will prevail in the end.

    And so, if you catch my drift, God's word has a decided and noticeable impact on people. And a variety of groups, from families to nations, will show the results of that covenant relationship between them and God. The Jews, no less, show this peculiar sign of God's impact upon their history. And, I believe, He keeps the Jews together because He has invested a lot in them, they have paid a high prices for having known Him, and ultimately they must produce, on behalf of their faithful ancestors, something that those ancestors can take pride in. A good tree *must* ultimately bear good fruit.

    It's just like having children who wander away from the faith. Do you give up on them? Don't you expect that *for your sake* God will answer your prayers and try to bring them back? Of course you will keep praying, keeping holding out hope, and keep trusting that God will do all He can to preserve your "good fruit." If the children do not choose right, I think you'll find that godly parents sometimes end up with godly grandchildren!

    And so it is, I believe, with Israel. God has kept them together because He has made a promise to Abraham. And He will, I think, keep that promise. So it may be debatable what that promise meant, if it was conditional, if it had an expiration date. But I think God is long-suffering, and will provide something ultimately from the Jews for Abraham. This is apart from the Gentile nations, who are adopted into children of faith. The Jews represent Abraham's natural posterity.

    But ultimately, God treats all national groups the same, with the same love. His word does, however, make a difference, because it represents God's honor and God's abilities. That's why I think it can be said that Israel will be saved. Nations have throughout NT history been brought into the Kingdom of God. No, not every citizen gets saved. But national conversion is what God wants--not just individual salvation. He wants saved *societies*--not hermits who live out in the mountains alone with God!

    That's my view, anyway.... That's why I'm interested in what's held the Jews together all these years, because I do believe the Jewish nation will eventually convert to Christianity. That will take place, according to Scriptures, at Christ's Coming.

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