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Thread: John chapter 6, all of it, but verse 44 specifically

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    John chapter 6, all of it, but verse 44 specifically

    Regarding a recent held poll among the BF folfs here 11 people answered [Q9] with a "no". I have these people in mind to explain John 6:44 to me. From all the recent giant discussion threads this (for me) is the verse where I say TULIP has a point. Without starting a new giant Calvinism debate can we please limit this thread to a proper understanding of John chapter 6 as a whole?

    44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.


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    Re: John chapter 6, all of it, but verse 44 specifically

    I'm not a 5 point Calvinist, but would agree with 2-3 points. In regards to John 6:44, although we are commanded to believe and will be held accountable for unbelief, saving faith is never exclusively a matter of human decision. Unless the Father draws us in (John 6:44) and enables us/unless it has been granted to him by My Father (John 6:65) we would NEVER come to Christ all by ourselves. The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by the Father, but He doesn't force us to choose Christ, we must choose Him. The impulse to faith in Christ comes from God.

    We are enabled by God's enabling power, which is His grace. This grace is unmerited and we did nothing to earn it. The impulse to faith comes from God. He draws us in and enables us to believe then we choose to believe. If God did not draw us or enable us then NONE of us would come to saving faith in Christ. No one comes to Me unless the Father draws him. This implies that no human being on his own, has the moral or spiritual ability to come to Christ unless the Father draws him, that is, gives him the desire and inclination to come and the ability to trust exclusively in Christ for salvation.
    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Re: John chapter 6, all of it, but verse 44 specifically

    Quote Originally Posted by ProDeo View Post
    Regarding a recent held poll among the BF folfs here 11 people answered [Q9] with a "no". I have these people in mind to explain John 6:44 to me. From all the recent giant discussion threads this (for me) is the verse where I say TULIP has a point. Without starting a new giant Calvinism debate can we please limit this thread to a proper understanding of John chapter 6 as a whole?

    44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.


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    I believe the Bible will explain the Bible. So regarding John 6:44 it is fully explained in John 16 7-11.

    “Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send him to you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and you see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.” (Joh 16:7-11)

    Albert Barnes describes it as follows: He will reprove - The word translated “reprove” means commonly to demonstrate by argument, to prove, to persuade anyone to do a thing by presenting reasons. It hence means also to convince of anything, and particularly to convince of crime. This is its meaning here. He will convince or convict the world of sin. That is, he will so apply the truths of God to men’s own minds as to convince them by fair and sufficient arguments that they are sinners, and cause them to feel this. This is the nature of conviction always.

    The world - Sinners. The men of the world. All men are by nature sinners, and the term the world may be applied to them all, Joh_1:10; Joh_12:31; 1Jn_5:19.

    That is how God draws people. It is my duty to answer the call in order to be saved. Then God has a reason to reject those who do not answer this call, as He draws every person through the Holy Spirit. That is the first and foremost work of the Holy Spirit. Based on this, it is quite easy to reject Calvinism, as you have to believe in the Holy Spirit, something that is either absent or plays a minimal role in the life of every Calvinist. The only statement they will make is "I believe in the Holy Spirit". Who and what He does most do not have a clue as He plays no role in salvation for them, only for the elect.
    Shama - A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.): - X attentively, call (gather) together, X carefully, X certainly, consent, consider, be content, declare, X diligently, discern, give ear, (cause to, let, make to) hear (-ken, tell), X indeed, listen, make (a) noise, (be) obedient, obey, perceive, (make a) proclaim (-ation), publish, regard, report, shew (forth), (make a) sound, X surely, tell, understand, whosoever [heareth], witness

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    Re: John chapter 6, all of it, but verse 44 specifically

    Quote Originally Posted by mailmandan View Post
    I'm not a 5 point Calvinist, but would agree with 2-3 points. In regards to John 6:44, although we are commanded to believe and will be held accountable for unbelief, saving faith is never exclusively a matter of human decision. Unless the Father draws us in (John 6:44) and enables us/unless it has been granted to him by My Father (John 6:65) we would NEVER come to Christ all by ourselves. The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by the Father, but He doesn't force us to choose Christ, we must choose Him. The impulse to faith in Christ comes from God.

    We are enabled by God's enabling power, which is His grace. This grace is unmerited and we did nothing to earn it. The impulse to faith comes from God. He draws us in and enables us to believe then we choose to believe. If God did not draw us or enable us then NONE of us would come to saving faith in Christ. No one comes to Me unless the Father draws him. This implies that no human being on his own, has the moral or spiritual ability to come to Christ unless the Father draws him, that is, gives him the desire and inclination to come and the ability to trust exclusively in Christ for salvation.
    But as the story unfolds it becomes apparent the Father doesn't draw everybody and those not drawn can't come to Christ. That's different to various other passages [John 3:16, 2 Pet 3:9, Acts 17:30 etc.]

    How do you reason?

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    Re: John chapter 6, all of it, but verse 44 specifically

    Quote Originally Posted by ProDeo View Post
    But as the story unfolds it becomes apparent the Father doesn't draw everybody and those not drawn can't come to Christ. That's different to various other passages [John 3:16, 2 Pet 3:9, Acts 17:30 etc.]

    How do you reason?
    ProDeo, you and I were talking about John 3:16 in a different thread that got locked. I obviously think you are correct about John 6:44. You and I were having a friendly debate about whether 3:16 addresses ability. You say yes; I say no. Let me illustrate.

    Obviously if one verse says all people have the ability to believe and another says all do not have the ability to believe we have a problem.

    So if I say (to parallel John 3:16 language)...

    Whosoever defeats Lebron James in a one-on-one basketball game will receive a new car.

    "Whosoever" in that sentence doesn't automatically mean that anyone and everyone can defeat Lebron James. In fact, in reality, almost nobody on the planet has that ability. My parallel sentence doesn't speak to ability. Whoever defeats him gets a car. Whoever doesn't defeat him does not get a car. "Whosoever" does not give anyone the ability to defeat Lebron.

    In that same manner, John 3:16 doesn't address ability. So, I have no problem reconciling 6:44 with 3:16. I hope that helps you to see where I come from on the issue.

    God bless you, Friend.

    Joe

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    Re: John chapter 6, all of it, but verse 44 specifically

    Quote Originally Posted by ProDeo View Post
    Regarding a recent held poll among the BF folfs here 11 people answered [Q9] with a "no". I have these people in mind to explain John 6:44 to me. From all the recent giant discussion threads this (for me) is the verse where I say TULIP has a point. Without starting a new giant Calvinism debate can we please limit this thread to a proper understanding of John chapter 6 as a whole?

    44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
    The natural (carnal) man can not believe that Jesus is the Christ:

    Mat 16:16, 17 « And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. »

    To believe the spiritual things - and believing that Jesus is the Christ is spiritual - we have to be regenerated and like our natural birth, we are passive in this process, we can't do anything about it ourselves. Paul confirms Matthew BTW:

    1Co 12:3 « Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. »

    In John 6:37 we read the corresponding verse of 44:

    Joh 6:37 « All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. »

    The drawing of the Father therefor is the first fruit of the national regeneration that should have followed but didn't because of the rejection of the Messiah.

    Aristarkos

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    Re: John chapter 6, all of it, but verse 44 specifically

    Quote Originally Posted by ProDeo View Post
    I have these people in mind to explain John 6:44 to me. Without starting a new giant Calvinism debate can we please limit this thread to a proper understanding of John chapter 6 as a whole?
    I'll try. I'll begin with a very simple observation.

    Look at the first two verses of chapter 6.

    John 6:1-2
    After these things Jesus went away to the other side of the Sea of Galilee (or Tiberias). A large crowd followed Him, because they saw the signs which He was performing on those who were sick.

    Now ask yourself, why were these people drawn to Jesus? What was their interest in Jesus? According to John, the crowds weren't interested in becoming disciples of Jesus; they wanted to see more signs. Paul says that the Jews want to see signs? Why? Don't we all want to see signs? I think so, but especially the Jews living at his time period. Before Jesus, when was the last time God performed a miracle?

    Just like their forefathers, these folks were not comfortable with God's silence. According to Isaiah, they rejected the gently flowing waters of Shiloah, which is to say, they did not believe or trust that God was caring for them in the mundane and unremarkable ways that while appearing to be "natural" were in essence, God's handiwork. They were attracted to the miracles because this was compelling evidence that God was at work in their midst. Finally, God is doing something among them. However, God wants to teach them something.

    Suppose, for instance, God sent Jesus around the countryside speaking what God told him to speak, preaching the good news message that God still cared for them and wanted to save their soles, but instead of miracles, Jesus simply talked. Would that make the message any less true? Is the truth alone compelling? It should be. But the people weren't prepared to listen to a preacher and believe what he said simply because the teacher was telling the truth. So Father drew them to Jesus with the miracles.

    So let's jump ahead to our text.

    John 6:41-44
    41 Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, “I am the bread that came down out of heaven.” 42 They were saying, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, ‘I have come down out of heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered and said to them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

    It's important to our understanding to remember that verse 44 was spoken in response to verse 42. Essentially what Jesus is saying is this. What did you expect to find when you followed me around? You expected to see God at work, yes? You weren't attracted to me because you think that I have the wisdom you seek; but you were attracted to me by the miracles the Father provided. You came here because God's miracles draw you to me. The father is drawing you to me with these miracles that he gives me to perform in your presence. You came to see miracles. That's what attracted you to me. But now that you are here, the father will teach you the way to eternal life if you find the message itself compelling.

    During that discourse, Jesus calls himself the bread that came down out of heaven, which is a metaphor that logically follows from his discussion earlier about how God sent mana out of heaven. The crowds wanted God to feed the stomach; but Jesus came to feed their hearts and minds in order to save their souls. What Moses gave the people sustained their bodies, what Jesus has to give them can keep them alive eternally. However, in order to live eternally, the people must hear and believe Jesus' message.

    John 6:45-47
    45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

    God used the miracles to attract the people to Jesus. That is, they wouldn't come to hear Jesus teach if all he did was preach at an uneventful rally. They needed a strong incentive to come. Nonetheless, Jesus says, the purpose of the meeting would be lost on the crowds if they didn't understand that Jesus came to speaks the words of the Father so that they might hear and learn from the Father. Only those who are interested in learning from the father will find the words of Jesus compelling.

    The purpose of John chapter 6 is to answer the question, "who believes the message Jesus proclaimed and why do they believe it? And the underlying reason why someone believes the message is found in the deeper question "what do you want?" What is your interest here? You were attracted by the miracles, but did you stay to hear the teaching? Did Jesus have the words of eternal life? Do you care about such things?

    Was Jesus making a case for God's sovereign election here? Not yet. Jesus wasn't saying that God was drawing the elect exclusively with his miracles. He wasn't saying that only the elect were drawn to him. Rather, he was suggesting that unless God had provided such miracles in the first place, they wouldn't have come to hear Jesus preach the Gospel. They wouldn't have come to Jesus unless God had first performed the miracles. The fact is, both the elect and the non-elect are attracted by the presence of actual, supernatural events. Attracting bears with honey doesn't say anything about the election of any particular bear, (if you catch my drift.) What person wouldn't want God to miraculously provide food and shelter, cure all of our diseases, and those of our family members? What person wouldn't go to hear a man teach if, after the meeting, he provided everyone with a brand new car or $50,000, or complete health for them and their families? What does it matter whether the man is speaking the truth or whether his message is the way to eternal life?

    Jesus makes his case for sovereign election later in chapter 6.

    60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, “This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?” 61 But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, “Does this cause you to stumble? 62 What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

    66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore. 67 So Jesus said to the twelve, “You do not want to go away also, do you?” 68 Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life. 69 We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God.” 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?” 71 Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.


    The Jews found the miracles to be compelling, so the Father provided miracles to draw them to hear Jesus speak. But not everyone believed his message. Why? Jesus says "it is the Spirit who gives life." It isn't enough to find the miraculous compelling; it isn't enough to hear and believe the message, only to fall away again. Only those whom God has given his Spirit will live.

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    Re: John chapter 6, all of it, but verse 44 specifically

    Quote Originally Posted by ProDeo View Post
    But as the story unfolds it becomes apparent the Father doesn't draw everybody and those not drawn can't come to Christ. That's different to various other passages [John 3:16, 2 Pet 3:9, Acts 17:30 etc.]

    How do you reason?
    Why would you think the Father doesn't draw everybody?

    I think that is a false conclusion. Scripture tells me otherwise.


    Matthew 7:7 "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened."

    John 12:32 Jesus said, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men unto me."

    John 1:5 "And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. "

    John 1:9 "That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world."

    John 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life"

    Acts 3:26 "God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities."

    Acts 17:26 "God hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us"

    Romans 5:18 "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

    I Corinthians 7:17 "But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one"

    I Corinthians 12:7 "the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal."

    Colossians 1:28 "Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus"

    Hebrews 2:9 "we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man."

    I Timothy 2:3 "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

    Titus 2:11 "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men"

    Revelation 22:12,17 "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

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    Re: John chapter 6, all of it, but verse 44 specifically

    According to this passage God doesn't call everyone.

    Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

    29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


    31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

    32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

    33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.


    Jude
    Matthew24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.



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    Re: John chapter 6, all of it, but verse 44 specifically

    I woke up this morning thinking that we needed another Calvinism thread on here!

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    Re: John chapter 6, all of it, but verse 44 specifically

    Quote Originally Posted by Jude View Post
    According to this passage God doesn't call everyone.

    Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

    29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


    31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

    32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

    33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.


    Jude
    Again, my verses above, show that everyone is drawn; and given the opportunity.

    The verse you list above; is addressing only those who accept and follow....those who He changes to become a new Creature in Him.
    Don't let the use of 'call' in the above verse, cause you to dismiss all of the previous verses, that show that the Lord draws all men to accept Him.

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    Re: John chapter 6, all of it, but verse 44 specifically

    All are not drawn. there was only 12 left with him. Those drawn come to Jesus.

    John 6:64-65 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
    And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

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    Re: John chapter 6, all of it, but verse 44 specifically

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    I'll try. I'll begin with a very simple observation.

    Look at the first two verses of chapter 6.

    John 6:1-2
    After these things Jesus went away to the other side of the Sea of Galilee (or Tiberias). A large crowd followed Him, because they saw the signs which He was performing on those who were sick.

    Now ask yourself, why were these people drawn to Jesus? What was their interest in Jesus? According to John, the crowds weren't interested in becoming disciples of Jesus; they wanted to see more signs. Paul says that the Jews want to see signs? Why? Don't we all want to see signs? I think so, but especially the Jews living at his time period. Before Jesus, when was the last time God performed a miracle?

    Just like their forefathers, these folks were not comfortable with God's silence. According to Isaiah, they rejected the gently flowing waters of Shiloah, which is to say, they did not believe or trust that God was caring for them in the mundane and unremarkable ways that while appearing to be "natural" were in essence, God's handiwork. They were attracted to the miracles because this was compelling evidence that God was at work in their midst. Finally, God is doing something among them. However, God wants to teach them something.

    Suppose, for instance, God sent Jesus around the countryside speaking what God told him to speak, preaching the good news message that God still cared for them and wanted to save their soles, but instead of miracles, Jesus simply talked. Would that make the message any less true? Is the truth alone compelling? It should be. But the people weren't prepared to listen to a preacher and believe what he said simply because the teacher was telling the truth. So Father drew them to Jesus with the miracles.
    That's not what Christ says:

    Joh 5:36 « But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. »

    The miracles were not to draw people to Him, but to show He was the one sent from the Father. You seem to miss the essence of the drawing of the Father:

    Joh 6:44 « No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. »

    If what you say is true, the whole crowd will be risen at the last day only on the basis the Father drew them with miracles?

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe
    So let's jump ahead to our text.

    John 6:41-44
    41 Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, “I am the bread that came down out of heaven.” 42 They were saying, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, ‘I have come down out of heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered and said to them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

    It's important to our understanding to remember that verse 44 was spoken in response to verse 42. Essentially what Jesus is saying is this. What did you expect to find when you followed me around? You expected to see God at work, yes? You weren't attracted to me because you think that I have the wisdom you seek; but you were attracted to me by the miracles the Father provided. You came here because God's miracles draw you to me. The father is drawing you to me with these miracles that he gives me to perform in your presence. You came to see miracles. That's what attracted you to me. But now that you are here, the father will teach you the way to eternal life if you find the message itself compelling.

    During that discourse, Jesus calls himself the bread that came down out of heaven, which is a metaphor that logically follows from his discussion earlier about how God sent mana out of heaven. The crowds wanted God to feed the stomach; but Jesus came to feed their hearts and minds in order to save their souls. What Moses gave the people sustained their bodies, what Jesus has to give them can keep them alive eternally. However, in order to live eternally, the people must hear and believe Jesus' message.
    It's Jesus who wanted to feed the crowds:

    Joh 6:5, 6 « When Jesus then lifted up his eyes, and saw a great company come unto him, he saith unto Philip, Whence shall we buy bread, that these may eat? And this he said to prove him: for he himself knew what he would do. »

    The ones murmuring in vs. 42 represent the ones that are not drawn by the Father, they didn't believe He was the Messiah sent by the Father (« Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? ») and they represent the majority in Israel in those days. The drawing of the Father is the regeneration of those He (the Father) chose to draw. Why? Because you have to be born from God (regenerated) to be able to believe in Christ.

    [...]

    Aristarkos

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    Re: John chapter 6, all of it, but verse 44 specifically

    Quote Originally Posted by David Taylor View Post
    Again, my verses above, show that everyone is drawn; and given the opportunity.

    The verse you list above; is addressing only those who accept and follow....those who He changes to become a new Creature in Him.
    Don't let the use of 'call' in the above verse, cause you to dismiss all of the previous verses, that show that the Lord draws all men to accept Him.
    I agree. God gives every man the opportunity to come to him. If we read the passage to mean he rejects some people without them (the people rejecting him first) how then can God be fair? Judas was called but like the other disciples who were not committed (John 6:66) he easily became satan's messenger.

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    Re: John chapter 6, all of it, but verse 44 specifically

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    All are not drawn. there was only 12 left with him. Those drawn come to Jesus.

    John 6:64-65 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
    And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
    Let's look at it this way; I can invite you to dinner or to a party. But the decision to come or not is yours alone. Your position that all are not drawn can also be interpreted to mean that perhaps some of the 12 were drawn against their will because you have removed their free will decision to come.

    We see this balance in v-66, those who went back were also called 'disciples', not apostles.

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