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Thread: John chapter 6, all of it, but verse 44 specifically

  1. #226
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    Re: John chapter 6, all of it, but verse 44 specifically

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    How do you figure? Whether or not it's given by God is the topic. If off topic. ... You mentioned it.
    Indeed, now you are back on-topic.

    So same answer as in #219, Romans 11.

    Remember Jesus mission was the elect, OT Jews.

    John 6 is about OT Jews.

    And their unbelief that Jesus is the Christ. [John 1:11]

    6:44 - No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.

    6:65 - And he said, This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.

    God removed the veil [2 Cor 3:14-16] for a remnant, chosen by grace [Rom 11:5], we are back in John 6.

  2. #227

    Re: John chapter 6, all of it, but verse 44 specifically

    Totally disagree, which is why I said answer

    "2) How the Father gives, reveals. Let's not make assumptions.

    Use the book"

  3. #228

    Re: John chapter 6, all of it, but verse 44 specifically

    Quote Originally Posted by ProDeo View Post
    God removed the veil [2 Cor 3:14-16] for a remnant, chosen by grace [Rom 11:5], we are back in John 6.
    How do you say this and also this? (from another thread)

    "Yes, I got the Calvinist logic, that faith in John 3:16 is a gift of God.

    If that is the case then how could Jesus blame His disciples for their unbelief?"

    Which is why I said, you're still stuck saying "TULIP has a point." So he gave to some and not others, but how does God decide who to give to? I posted it earlier, remember, 'he doesn't give everything to everyone'? He gives to those that learn. It's not without the choice of the individual, and you are saying it is. That's TULIP and wrong.

  4. #229
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    Re: John chapter 6, all of it, but verse 44 specifically

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    Totally disagree, which is why I said answer

    "2) How the Father gives, reveals. Let's not make assumptions.

    Use the book"


    To which post are you referring?

    And to what do you disagree?

    Totally disagree isn't very helpful in this way.

  5. #230
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    Re: John chapter 6, all of it, but verse 44 specifically

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ProDeo View Post
    Indeed, now you are back on-topic.

    So same answer as in #219, Romans 11.

    Remember Jesus mission was the elect, OT Jews.

    John 6 is about OT Jews.

    And their unbelief that Jesus is the Christ. [John 1:11]

    6:44 - No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.

    6:65 - And he said, This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.

    God removed the veil [2 Cor 3:14-16] for a remnant, chosen by grace [Rom 11:5], we are back in John 6.
    How do you say this and also this? (from another thread)
    You only quoted my last sentence (I colored red) and snipped all before that. Before going into your question I am curious to know if that is supposed to mean you agree on #226?


    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    "Yes, I got the Calvinist logic, that faith in John 3:16 is a gift of God.

    If that is the case then how could Jesus blame His disciples for their unbelief?"

    Which is why I said, you're still stuck saying "TULIP has a point." So he gave to some and not others, but how does God decide who to give to? I posted it earlier, remember, 'he doesn't give everything to everyone'? He gives to those that learn. It's not without the choice of the individual, and you are saying it is. That's TULIP and wrong.
    Either you didn't read my exchange with TrustGzus about John 3:16, or missed what it was about, or my english as non native english speaker was not good enough to be understood by you. Anyway, here is a recapitulation.

    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

    TrustGzus (a Calvinist) has argued that 3:16 | 6:44 | 6:65 are in harmony because the faith in both 3 verses comes from above as a gift, the "U" in TULIP. And he asked me if had understood his (Calvinist) understanding and reasoning which I replied with the green above.

    And you incorrectly concluded "you're still stuck saying "TULIP has a point" as answering the question if I understand the Calvinist take on 3:16 with a yes doesn't automatically mean I agree with that understanding, yes?

  6. #231
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    Re: John chapter 6, all of it, but verse 44 specifically

    ProDeo,

    A part of me is glad that you think you've resolved John 6. It's nice to resolve things. I don't agree that the chapter is speaking of Jews. What from that text limits the comments to Jews only?

    Grace & peace to you, Friend.

    Joe
    In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity. - unknown

    Read your Bible and pray every single day. - Pastor Jon Courson

    If your grace ain't greasier than a bucket full of chitlin's and gravy, you might be a legalist - an internet friend.

  7. #232

    Re: John chapter 6, all of it, but verse 44 specifically

    Quote Originally Posted by ProDeo View Post


    To which post are you referring?

    And to what do you disagree?

    Totally disagree isn't very helpful in this way.
    I'm sorry.....


    Quote Originally Posted by ProDeo View Post
    Indeed, now you are back on-topic.

    So same answer as in #219, Romans 11.

    Remember Jesus mission was the elect, OT Jews.

    John 6 is about OT Jews.

    And their unbelief that Jesus is the Christ. [John 1:11]

    6:44 - No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.

    6:65 - And he said, This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.

    God removed the veil [2 Cor 3:14-16] for a remnant, chosen by grace [Rom 11:5], we are back in John 6.
    The topic is, "Whether or not it's given by God" the way Calvinist say it is. Above, you agree with Calvinist. Here;
    "If that is the case then how could Jesus blame His disciples for their unbelief?"
    You do not.

    Lets get it all in one place for clarity. Here's the exchange
    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    So you're still stuck saying "TULIP has a point." even if you mean to say that's how it worked at the time to achieve his purpose.

    I'm on my phone so I can't say much, but there's a lot of issues with what you just said. Just two....

    1) That they didn't believe because they had the wrong idea of Messiah. The disciples had it in the gospels and continued this mindset in Acts. It's not wrong and not why they didn't believe. So why? Also, in the book, we see many understand Messiah would do miracles, believed for that reason, and the blind man schooled the Jews with that point.

    2) How the Father gives, reveals. Let's not make assumptions.

    Use the book to answer these questions, and TULIP won't have a point, leaving it up to God to decide, leaving us with a lot more question marks throughout the book, even from a historical and cultural standpoint.
    Quote Originally Posted by ProDeo View Post
    If your post was directed at me then you must have misunderstood something
    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    I don't think so, so explain please. Looks like you concluded it was up to the Father. No?
    Quote Originally Posted by ProDeo View Post
    For the Jews?

    Yes
    , per Rom 11:7-8, 7:25.

    God will open their minds when the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    Rom 11:7-8 is a result of the unbelief in John, not the cause. Did God cause their unbelief in John?
    Quote Originally Posted by ProDeo View Post
    But that's an off-topic question.
    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    How do you figure? Whether or not it's given by God is the topic. If off topic. ... You mentioned it.
    Quote Originally Posted by ProDeo View Post
    Indeed, now you are back on-topic.

    So same answer as in #219, Romans 11.

    Remember Jesus mission was the elect, OT Jews.

    John 6 is about OT Jews.

    And their unbelief that Jesus is the Christ. [John 1:11]

    6:44 - No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.

    6:65 - And he said, This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.

    God removed the veil [2 Cor 3:14-16] for a remnant, chosen by grace [Rom 11:5], we are back in John 6.
    On the same page?

    Quote Originally Posted by ProDeo View Post
    You only quoted my last sentence (I colored red) and snipped all before that. Before going into your question I am curious to know if that is supposed to mean you agree on #226?
    I partly agree, "Jesus mission was the elect, OT Jews". Remember, I first introduced historical/cultural context in post #12, 16, 23, 33, 32, and especially 33. However, Jesus also said;

    Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

    Which is Gentiles.

    I'm trying to get you to see post #35 and 59, "The Father doesn't decide who learns." "Not everything is given to everyone....Is God the one deciding or is it the individual who continually refused to learn of the Father? Why would someone that didn't learn of the Father come to Jesus?".

    I agree, "John 6 is about OT Jews." In post #33 I said;
    "If you pull this chapter into your street preaching or Sunday service you have absolutely slaughtered it. The Messiah has come to Israel as promised. At a time everyone expected his arrival. They knew full well time was fulfilled, and there was great anticipation for Messiah's arrival. They knew the law and the prophets, his ways, and statutes. All were taught. Who had learned? Now can we somehow loosely apply this concept to all men? I guess, I mean all are born with the natural law and have dealings with God throughout their lives. All are taught. Who learned? But should we? I think it's OK to. My point is to get people to see Jesus was not preaching the gospel we preach here. There's absolutely no reason whatsoever to think this is about the gospel being preached, God changing or enabling hearts as a result (supposed drawing), and people accepting or rejecting. Absolute nonsense. No one can force that into the context. Impossible."

    I do not agree with, "God removed the veil [2 Cor 3:14-16] for a remnant, chosen by grace [Rom 11:5], we are back in John 6."
    The passages you use say the opposite.

    Rom 11:7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,
    Rom 11:8 as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day."
    Rom 11:9 And David says, "Let their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
    Rom 11:10 let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see, and bend their backs forever."

    The hardening happened when they rejected Jesus as Messiah, not when they had Moses place a veil over his face. In both instances, they hardened their own hearts with unbelief. They would not look past the end of the law to the glory that would follow. See post #59. They would not see and hear, so Jesus began speaking only in parables to teach his doctrine and giving the interpretation privately to the disciples -hardened by God because of unbelief. Before that, "all the people was astonished at his doctrine"

    Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

    Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
    Mat 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
    Mat 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

    Mar 4:34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

    The veil is not something everyone had to have. Remember, some learned of the Father and those that 'have' are 'given more' so they can 'have abundance'. This principle is found in the OT and is how God has always dealt with men individually. Want wisdom? Ask of Him who gives it.

    2Co 3:16 But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed.

    It does not say a Jew turns to the Lord when the veil is removed. It says the veil is removed when a Jew turns to Jesus. The disciples accepted Jesus as Messiah so the mysteries were given them. The Jews did not so the mysteries continued to be hidden from them, "lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them."

    Those who learn of the Father are given to Jesus. Those who have are given more. Doesn't mean God didn't want all to learn and be given more and given to Jesus. God let them accept or reject.
    Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

    So, as I asked, how is it given to come to Jesus? How are people drawn? Most assume, "drawn by the Spirit" but it doesn't says that. Others, an arbitrary decision by God, but it doesn't say that. The book tells us.......

    Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

    Joh 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

    Joh 3:31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
    Joh 3:32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
    Joh 3:33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
    Joh 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
    Joh 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

    Joh 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

    Joh 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

    Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
    Joh 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
    Joh 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
    Joh 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
    Joh 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
    Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.


    Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
    Joh 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

  8. #233
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    Re: John chapter 6, all of it, but verse 44 specifically

    Quote Originally Posted by ProDeo View Post
    But.... that is exactly how the Calvinist reasons from 6:44 and 6:65 as the result is that many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. [6:66] Reason - the Father never (or did not yet) drawn them [6:65].

    I am not saying I am agreeing with the Calvinist reasoning here -- for the simple reason there are tons of other Scripture passages that clearly speak of all men -- but they do have a point in this specific chapter of Scripture.
    While this can be, admittedly difficult, I remain convinced Christ is addressing the blindness of many Jews who, as in this case, misapprehended His words and stumbled over certain aspects of the Law. They were blinded.

    Mishapprehending the Father, they are doomed to misapprehend the Son.

    "Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed." Is 6:10


  9. #234
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    Re: John chapter 6, all of it, but verse 44 specifically

    Quote Originally Posted by IMINXTC View Post
    While this can be, admittedly difficult, I remain convinced Christ is addressing the blindness of many Jews who, as in this case, misapprehended His words and stumbled over certain aspects of the Law. They were blinded.

    Mishapprehending the Father, they are doomed to misapprehended the Son.

    "Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed." Is 6:10
    I agree and Paul makes a great example of John 6 and the blindness of the Jews, while in zeal for God murdering Christians Christ opened his spiritual eyes by blinding his natural eyes. Can't say God has no humor.

  10. #235

    Re: John chapter 6, all of it, but verse 44 specifically

    Quote Originally Posted by ProDeo View Post
    I agree and Paul makes a great example of John 6 and the blindness of the Jews, while in zeal for God murdering Christians Christ opened his spiritual eyes by blinding his natural eyes. Can't say God has no humor.
    opened his spiritual eyes? Where's that at?

  11. #236
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    Re: John chapter 6, all of it, but verse 44 specifically

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    opened his spiritual eyes? Where's that at?
    I suppose Paul never had his eyes opened to the truth of the gospel?

    Ever read Acts 26:18 when Paul explains the need for having our eyes opened in order to receive forgiveness? Do you think that was physical eyes he was talking about?

    Some posts are hard to even take serious. :-/

  12. #237

    Re: John chapter 6, all of it, but verse 44 specifically

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    opened his spiritual eyes? Where's that at?
    Ezekiel 12:2
    “Son of man, you are living among a rebellious people. They have eyes to see but do not see and ears to hear but do not hear, for they are a rebellious people.


    Mark 8:18
    Do you have eyes but fail to see, and ears but fail to hear? And don’t you remember?


    Romans 11:8
    as it is written: “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that could not hear, to this very day.”
    “The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever,
    that we may observe all the words of this law."
    Deuteronomy 29:29

  13. #238

    Re: John chapter 6, all of it, but verse 44 specifically

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    I suppose Paul never had his eyes opened to the truth of the gospel?
    Sure, when he was knock of a horse, blinded, and heard the Lord.


    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    Ever read Acts 26:18 when Paul explains the need for having our eyes opened in order to receive forgiveness?
    Read it many times. Never got that from it. Eyes of understanding opened to believe the gospel in order to receive forgiveness, yes, but I asked a simple question.

    "opened his spiritual eyes? Where's that at?"

    Can you answer?

    If the Lord knocked everyone of a horse, blinded them, and spoke to them, everyone would believe and no one would 'need their eyes opened'. Still, having eyes opened isn't some arbitrary monergistic flip of the switch. Sorry.


    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    Do you think that was physical eyes he was talking about?
    Did I say it was? I asked about spiritual eyes. Still, having eyes opened isn't some arbitrary monergistic flip of the switch. Sorry.


    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    Some posts are hard to even take serious. :-/
    Tell me about it . It's sad people try to compare what happened to Paul to everyone.

  14. #239

    Re: John chapter 6, all of it, but verse 44 specifically

    Quote Originally Posted by Eyelog View Post
    Ezekiel 12:2
    “Son of man, you are living among a rebellious people. They have eyes to see but do not see and ears to hear but do not hear, for they are a rebellious people.


    Mark 8:18
    Do you have eyes but fail to see, and ears but fail to hear? And don’t you remember?


    Romans 11:8
    as it is written: “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that could not hear, to this very day.”
    OK? ditto (from above) for you

  15. #240

    Re: John chapter 6, all of it, but verse 44 specifically

    Quote Originally Posted by IMINXTC View Post
    While this can be, admittedly difficult, I remain convinced Christ is addressing the blindness of many Jews who, as in this case, misapprehended His words and stumbled over certain aspects of the Law. They were blinded.

    Mishapprehending the Father, they are doomed to misapprehend the Son.

    "Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed." Is 6:10
    The self inflicted veil (hardening) because of the law (seen during Jesus' ministry) and the hardening that resulted from rejecting and crucifying Messiah are not one and the same. So I agree with 2/3 of your post but not adding Isa 6:10 to it. Also, the blindness of Gentiles is not at all the same as the self hardening of Israel because of the law.

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