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Thread: When is The TIME OF THE END?

  1. #31
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    Re: When is The TIME OF THE END?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Ok why don't you give me a few examples outside of Daniel where when the prophet said time of the End it didn't mean time of the end? All i'm saying is that this line of thinking only seems to apply to Daniel not any other prophet, why is that?
    You are the one claiming every occasion outside of Daniel ALWAYS means ET (End Time). So you can provide a couple of examples which support your claim. My way of thinking is applicable on every occasion and you don't seem to have an answer to that. IOW I am highlighting a logical fallacy that you are making, which is that we MUST understand the words "time of the end" in ONLY one way.

  2. #32

    Re: When is The TIME OF THE END?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    You are the one claiming every occasion outside of Daniel ALWAYS means ET (End Time). So you can provide a couple of examples which support your claim. My way of thinking is applicable on every occasion and you don't seem to have an answer to that. IOW I am highlighting a logical fallacy that you are making, which is that we MUST understand the words "time of the end" in ONLY one way.
    Actually no I'm the one claiming that this standard only seems to be applied to Daniel. When the other prophets say time of the end it's understood to mean time of the end.

    You disagree all I'm asking is that you provide some examples where other prophets can be understood thru context to not mean the time of the end when they say time of the end.

    Maybe you don't understand the burden of proof. This time it's on you.

    Once more my claim is that your idea seems to Only apply to the book of Daniel. Can you name any other prophets you put in this same category.

  3. #33
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    Re: When is The TIME OF THE END?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Actually no I'm the one claiming that this standard only seems to be applied to Daniel. When the other prophets say time of the end it's understood to mean time of the end.
    You need to read what you posted - you said "this standard is only applied to Daniel NOT the other prophets..." I said INCORRECT this standard is applied to all the prophets.

    You disagree all I'm asking is that you provide some examples where other prophets can be understood thru context to not mean the time of the end when they say time of the end.
    Maybe you don't understand the burden of proof. This time it's on you.
    Once more my claim is that your idea seems to Only apply to the book of Daniel. Can you name any other prophets you put in this same category.
    No, my idea IS applied to every prophet, because it is applied to EVERY passage in EVERY book.
    The burden is ENTIRELY upon you because you CLAIM a standard used for other books, whereas you acknowledge that the one used for Daniel is based upon CONTEXT. So please show another prophet where CONTEXT is ignored.

  4. #34

    Re: When is The TIME OF THE END?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    You need to read what you posted - you said "this standard is only applied to Daniel NOT the other prophets..." I said INCORRECT this standard is applied to all the prophets.


    No, my idea IS applied to every prophet, because it is applied to EVERY passage in EVERY book.
    The burden is ENTIRELY upon you because you CLAIM a standard used for other books, whereas you acknowledge that the one used for Daniel is based upon CONTEXT. So please show another prophet where CONTEXT is ignored.
    See what i mean you don't seem to be able to understand what i'm saying, I say this standard only seems to apply to one book [Daniel] you claim is applies to Every passage in Every book. Yet you don't seem to want to even provide even one Passage out of one Other book where the time of the end doesn't mean time of the end but by Context means something else.

    Your the one who made the standard : Time of the end is subject to context.
    Your the one who chose where it applies: Every Passage in Every book.

    So the burden of proof is on you.

    IOW i don't have to provide another Prophets where context changes the uses of time of the end to something else (based on context). Since I'm not claiming this You are. All i'm claiming is your standard only seems to apply to the book of Daniel.

  5. #35

    Re: When is The TIME OF THE END?

    I don't know about everybody else, but I was thinking the OP was asking specifically about the phrase "the time of the end" and the contexts where that is found [ https://www.biblegateway.com/quickse...qs_version=KJV ]

    That is, in Dan 8:17, 11:35, 11:40, 12:4, 12:9 (and nowhere else... that I am aware of).

    This is what I addressed (in post #4 of this thread)... not any and every phrase that sounds similar... because I thought the OP was asking a specific question regarding THIS phrase (and the contexts where IT is found).

  6. #36

    Re: When is The TIME OF THE END?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    I don't know about everybody else, but I was thinking the OP was asking specifically about the phrase "the time of the end" and the contexts where that is found [ https://www.biblegateway.com/quickse...qs_version=KJV ]

    That is, in Dan 8:17, 11:35, 11:40, 12:4, 12:9 (and nowhere else... that I am aware of).

    This is what I addressed (in post #4 of this thread)... not any and every phrase that sounds similar... because I thought the OP was asking a specific question regarding THIS phrase (and the contexts where IT is found).
    Fair enough and if this phase "time of the end" is only used in Daniel, seems we have no other prophet in which to compare it. You my friend have indeed made a legitimate argument and overall i yield my position to it. I guess my question for ForHisGlory would be does he based on the context in both these passages believe they speak of the same time. Daniel 8 & 11-12? My answer would be they do namely the "time of the end".

  7. #37
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    Re: When is The TIME OF THE END?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Fair enough and if this phase "time of the end" is only used in Daniel, seems we have no other prophet in which to compare it. You my friend have indeed made a legitimate argument and overall i yield my position to it. I guess my question for ForHisGlory would be does he based on the context in both these passages believe they speak of the same time. Daniel 8 & 11-12? My answer would be they do namely the "time of the end".
    It is my understanding that all the scriptures about the "time of the end," the "last days," and the "last time of indignation" refer to the post-rapture period. Including the "times of the Gentiles" in the OD.

    Ezekiel 7:2 “And you, son of man, thus says the Lord God to the land of Israel:

    ‘An end! The end has come upon the four corners of the land/[earth].
    3 Now the end has come upon you,
    And I will send My anger against you;
    I will judge you according to your ways,
    And I will repay you for all your abominations.
    4 My eye will not spare you,
    Nor will I have pity;
    But I will repay your ways,
    And your abominations will be in your midst;
    Then you shall know that I am the Lord!’

    The end comes to the four corners of the earth first, the 6th seal, imo. Then the end comes to the land of Israel. Complete with abomination in her midst. (The Hebrew word "erets" can be land or earth. Just as it is used in Genesis to describe creation. In this case, earth is correct, imo, since the 6th seal is literal.)


    Luke 21:24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

    Ezekiel 30:2 ...“Wail, ‘Woe to the day!’ 3 For the day is near, Even the day of the Lord is near; It will be a day of clouds, the time of the Gentiles.

  8. #38
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    Re: When is The TIME OF THE END?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Fair enough and if this phase "time of the end" is only used in Daniel, seems we have no other prophet in which to compare it. You my friend have indeed made a legitimate argument and overall i yield my position to it. I guess my question for ForHisGlory would be does he based on the context in both these passages believe they speak of the same time. Daniel 8 & 11-12? My answer would be they do namely the "time of the end".
    In Daniel 8 we are specifically told by the angel what time is in view. So the context is given by the angel. I will not disagree with what the angel says and try to make it about any other time.
    What time does the angel link it to?
    Dan 8:23 And at the latter end of their kingdom, when the transgressors have reached their limit, a king of bold face, one who understands riddles, shall arise.
    So we are told it is about their kingdom.
    Which kingdom is that?
    We are told it is the Greek kingdom, which defeats the Medo-Persian Kingdom:
    Dan 8:20 As for the ram that you saw with the two horns, these are the kings of Media and Persia.
    Dan 8:21 And the goat is the king of Greece. And the great horn between his eyes is the first king.
    Dan 8:22 As for the horn that was broken, in place of which four others arose, four kingdoms shall arise from his nation, but not with his power

    So again it is very clear and unequivocally stated.
    So 100% no doubt in my view that Daniel 8 speaks of the end of the Greek Kingdom, which happened a long time ago and is not speaking of a future Greek kingdom which may defeat a Medo-Persian kingdom.

    As for Dan 11:35 we are not told by an angel the interpretation but rather a set of details and thus it is a bit harder to be certain about what is specifically meant. However having rejected the idea that it MUST be about some future End Time, then it allows us to work through the context of what is stated.
    Dan 11:1 "And as for me, in the first year of Darius the Mede, I stood up to confirm and strengthen him.
    Dan 11:2 "And now I will show you the truth. Behold, three more kings shall arise in Persia, and a fourth shall be far richer than all of them. And when he has become strong through his riches, he shall stir up all against the kingdom of Greece.
    Dan 11:3 Then a mighty king shall arise, who shall rule with great dominion and do as he wills.
    Dan 11:4 And as soon as he has arisen, his kingdom shall be broken and divided toward the four winds of heaven, but not to his posterity, nor according to the authority with which he ruled, for his kingdom shall be plucked up and go to others besides these.

    Now without going through the whole chapter and explaining it bit by bit, lets at least start by getting what the angel does make clear.
    Verse 2 tells us that it is again about the Persians.
    Verse 3 though simply speaks of a mighty king who arises and whose kingdom is broken up and given to others.
    So can this be speaking of a Persian king? No, we know from history that this does not occur. However it is what occurs with the Kingdom of Greece, the very kingdom mentioned in the previous verse.
    Following the verses through you can chart what happens through history, with the King of the South being Ptolemy (and his successors) and the King of the North being Seleucus (and his successors).
    Dan 11:21 through to 11:34 all connect to Antiochus IV Epiphanes and what he did with his profaning the temple. The question then is whether verse 35 is somehow speaking of someone else. Yet 11:27 says this:
    Dan 11:27 And as for the two kings, their hearts shall be bent on doing evil. They shall speak lies at the same table, but to no avail, for the end is yet to be at the time appointed.
    This phrase is then expanded in verse 29 and finished by verse 35.
    So I find contextually and historically these events are fulfilled in the past.
    Therefore the question is whether from verse 36 it is speaking of another king.
    Yet why should we think so? Not because of the phrase "time of the end", but only whether A4E actually does those things, or was it a later king.
    Working through to verse 45 we find it does fit with A4E and have no good reason to think it is not.
    The King of the North and the King of the South have both been clarified throughout this passage. As these two kingdoms ended before Jesus was born, it makes little sense to think that this therefore speaks of a yet future kingdom. It may be seen as a type, but that is all.
    Dan 12:1 can easily connect with the time of Maccabees, but 12:2 then speaks of the final truth. IOW Dan 11 has been focused on the various outworkings throughout history, but then it is brought to the conclusion of history itself and what really matters.
    It is due to that introduction of a future end, which then allows 12:4 and 12:9 to speak not of the end of 11:35 or Dan 8, but the End Times.
    This also is supported by the length of time stated of 1290 days and 1335 days which doesn't fit into A4E which 2300 evenings and mornings does.

  9. #39
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    Re: When is The TIME OF THE END?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    It is my understanding that all the scriptures about the "time of the end," the "last days," and the "last time of indignation" refer to the post-rapture period. Including the "times of the Gentiles" in the OD.

    Ezekiel 7:2 “And you, son of man, thus says the Lord God to the land of Israel:

    ‘An end! The end has come upon the four corners of the land/[earth].
    3 Now the end has come upon you,
    And I will send My anger against you;
    I will judge you according to your ways,
    And I will repay you for all your abominations.
    4 My eye will not spare you,
    Nor will I have pity;
    But I will repay your ways,
    And your abominations will be in your midst;
    Then you shall know that I am the Lord!’

    The end comes to the four corners of the earth first, the 6th seal, imo. Then the end comes to the land of Israel. Complete with abomination in her midst. (The Hebrew word "erets" can be land or earth. Just as it is used in Genesis to describe creation. In this case, earth is correct, imo, since the 6th seal is literal.)


    Luke 21:24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

    Ezekiel 30:2 ...“Wail, ‘Woe to the day!’ 3 For the day is near, Even the day of the Lord is near; It will be a day of clouds, the time of the Gentiles.
    Yet your quote from Ezekiel 30:2 highlights that it is NOT the post-rapture situation, but actually at least from 70 AD when Jerusalem is trampled and quite possibly even from the time when Israel is under foreign rule.

  10. #40

    Re: When is The TIME OF THE END?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Yet your quote from Ezekiel 30:2 highlights that it is NOT the post-rapture situation, but actually at least from 70 AD when Jerusalem is trampled and quite possibly even from the time when Israel is under foreign rule.
    Honestly i have no idea what your talking about it clearly says the day of the Lord which was no in 70 AD

  11. #41

    Re: When is The TIME OF THE END?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    In Daniel 8 we are specifically told by the angel what time is in view. So the context is given by the angel. I will not disagree with what the angel says and try to make it about any other time.
    What time does the angel link it to?
    Dan 8:23 And at the latter end of their kingdom, when the transgressors have reached their limit, a king of bold face, one who understands riddles, shall arise.
    So we are told it is about their kingdom.
    Which kingdom is that?
    We are told it is the Greek kingdom, which defeats the Medo-Persian Kingdom:
    Dan 8:20 As for the ram that you saw with the two horns, these are the kings of Media and Persia.
    Dan 8:21 And the goat is the king of Greece. And the great horn between his eyes is the first king.
    Dan 8:22 As for the horn that was broken, in place of which four others arose, four kingdoms shall arise from his nation, but not with his power

    So again it is very clear and unequivocally stated.
    So 100% no doubt in my view that Daniel 8 speaks of the end of the Greek Kingdom, which happened a long time ago and is not speaking of a future Greek kingdom which may defeat a Medo-Persian kingdom.
    Correct this is clear and Unequivocally stated and more then once literally 2 times IN A ROW what time does the angel link the vision to? Daniel 8:17 So he came near where I stood. And when he came, I was frightened and fell on my face. But he said to me, “Understand, O son of man, that the vision is for the time of the end.” Daniel 8:18 And when he had spoken to me, I fell into a deep sleep with my face to the ground. But he touched me and made me stand up. 19 He said, “Behold, I will make known to you what shall be at the latter end of the indignation, for it refers to the appointed time of the end. The angel clearly tells us that the latter end of the indignation refers to the appointed time of the END

    The rest of your post is false and i don't really need to read it, seems like you've brought the partial-preterits viewpoint hook line and sinker. But the angel in Daniel 8 clearly couldn't have been more clear idk why you seem to only be able to post Daniel 8:23 as if you can't read Daniel 8:17-18 when the Angel tells you 2 times when this vision is for 100% sure and is for the time of the end, the appointed time of the END in my view i just take the angel at his word.

  12. #42
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    Re: When is The TIME OF THE END?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Correct this is clear and Unequivocally stated and more then once literally 2 times IN A ROW what time does the angel link the vision to? Daniel 8:17 So he came near where I stood. And when he came, I was frightened and fell on my face. But he said to me, “Understand, O son of man, that the vision is for the time of the end.” Daniel 8:18 And when he had spoken to me, I fell into a deep sleep with my face to the ground. But he touched me and made me stand up. 19 He said, “Behold, I will make known to you what shall be at the latter end of the indignation, for it refers to the appointed time of the end. The angel clearly tells us that the latter end of the indignation refers to the appointed time of the END
    Sorry, but you are IGNORING EVERYTHING the angel has stated.
    The angel doesn't simply through out the phrase "time of the end", he takes you through the time of the end of what.
    If you chose to IGNORE what the angel says then you will come up with FALSE ideas.
    The angel says BEHOLD I will make this clear to you what I am talking about (verse 19), then in verse 20 he EXPLAINS it.
    You have decided that verse 17 and verse 19 float in a world of their own without connection to the vision describe preceding, nor the explanation given following.

    The rest of your post is false and i don't really need to read it, seems like you've brought the partial-preterits viewpoint hook line and sinker. But the angel in Daniel 8 clearly couldn't have been more clear idk why you seem to only be able to post Daniel 8:23 as if you can't read Daniel 8:17-18 when the Angel tells you 2 times when this vision is for 100% sure and is for the time of the end, the appointed time of the END in my view i just take the angel at his word.
    Rather than say it is false, actually give reasoning as to WHAT is false. It is quite laughable for you to cal what I am saying as in anyway related to partial preterism. The angel is 100% clear, but if you choose to ignore what the angel says in verse 20, 21 and so on, then that is you choosing to willfully ignore what God is telling us through that angel. If that is what you wish to do, then I am sorry for you. There isn't anything else to be said.

  13. #43

    Re: When is The TIME OF THE END?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Sorry, but you are IGNORING EVERYTHING the angel has stated.
    The angel doesn't simply through out the phrase "time of the end", he takes you through the time of the end of what.
    If you chose to IGNORE what the angel says then you will come up with FALSE ideas.
    The angel says BEHOLD I will make this clear to you what I am talking about (verse 19), then in verse 20 he EXPLAINS it.
    You have decided that verse 17 and verse 19 float in a world of their own without connection to the vision describe preceding, nor the explanation given following.
    Correct he then explains it the angel is not incorrect you interpretation of what the angel says is incorrect. Namely you believe A4E fits this prophesy which he clearly doesn't. Remember the question of this post is what is the Time of the End, you believe the time of the end was in 164 BC.


    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Rather than say it is false, actually give reasoning as to WHAT is false. It is quite laughable for you to cal what I am saying as in anyway related to partial preterism. The angel is 100% clear, but if you choose to ignore what the angel says in verse 20, 21 and so on, then that is you choosing to willfully ignore what God is telling us through that angel. If that is what you wish to do, then I am sorry for you. There isn't anything else to be said.
    It is literally partial preterism : This school of thought interprets the Book of Daniel as referring to events that happened in the 2nd century BC. This is literally what you are stating you believe Daniel 8 and 11 was referring to events that happened in 2nd century BC. I'm not ignoring what the angel says at all i just don't believe that it was fulfilled by A4E there shouldn't be anymore dispute on this i don't hold to partial preterist beliefs like you do even though i do understand them.
    Why i believe they are wrong i have already elaborated on many occasions, they just always pop up whenever the book of Daniel is discussed.
    No offense to you if you don't identify yourself as a Preterist but this is one of the reasons why its banned on this forum (IMO) namely we can't seems to discuss these prophesies in Daniel without someone like you stepping in and reiterating the points of this belief by rote and then declaring it a fact imagine if they were allowed to do this with the book of Matthew and Revelations. No offense to my brothers who do believe in this school.

  14. #44
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    Re: When is The TIME OF THE END?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Correct he then explains it the angel is not incorrect you interpretation of what the angel says is incorrect. Namely you believe A4E fits this prophesy which he clearly doesn't. Remember the question of this post is what is the Time of the End, you believe the time of the end was in 164 BC.
    What we are looking at is WHAT the angel MEANT by the statement "time of the end."
    So we MUST read what the angel says IS the "time of the end". The angel declares in the very next verse this:
    Dan 8:20 As for the ram that you saw with the two horns, these are the kings of Media and Persia.
    Dan 8:21 And the goat is the king of Greece. And the great horn between his eyes is the first king.

    Now are you REALLY going to say that the angel did NOT mean that the ram with its two horns was Media and Persia?
    When you ACCEPT that the angel REALLY said THIS is the kingdom in the vision THEN you will KNOW the context.

    It is literally partial preterism : This school of thought interprets the Book of Daniel as referring to events that happened in the 2nd century BC. This is literally what you are stating you believe Daniel 8 and 11 was referring to events that happened in 2nd century BC. I'm not ignoring what the angel says at all i just don't believe that it was fulfilled by A4E there shouldn't be anymore dispute on this i don't hold to partial preterist beliefs like you do even though i do understand them.
    Why i believe they are wrong i have already elaborated on many occasions, they just always pop up whenever the book of Daniel is discussed.
    No offense to you if you don't identify yourself as a Preterist but this is one of the reasons why its banned on this forum (IMO) namely we can't seems to discuss these prophesies in Daniel without someone like you stepping in and reiterating the points of this belief by rote and then declaring it a fact imagine if they were allowed to do this with the book of Matthew and Revelations. No offense to my brothers who do believe in this school.
    As I do NOT believe the WHOLE Book of Daniel refers SOLELY to events in the 2nd Century BC, then I am not a partial preterist.
    Are you arguing that NONE of Daniel was in the past? Do you NOT agree that the Head of Gold was Babylon of the past?
    I am simply highlighting WHICH parts of Daniel have happened. Just about EVERYBODY agrees that 69 of the 70 weeks are in the past - does that make them partial preterist?
    I don't follow a single partial preterist teaching. However this does NOT mean that I believe that ALL of Daniel, or even a majority of Daniel is in the future.
    You are IGNORING what the angel SPECIFICALLY states WHEN you IGNORE the explanation given by the angel as to what the ram and goat are.
    Now IF you ACCEPT what the angel says and ACKNOWLEDGE that the ram and goat are Medo-Persia and Greece THEN being consistent you will agree that the kingdom in view IS the Greek kingdom:
    Dan 8:22 As for the horn that was broken, in place of which four others arose, four kingdoms shall arise from his nation, but not with his power.
    Dan 8:23 And at the latter end of their kingdom, when the transgressors have reached their limit, a king of bold face, one who understands riddles, shall arise.

    Dan 8:23 does NOT allow for an alternative understanding.
    The FACTUAL statements in Dan 8 are this:
    1) 8:17 time of the end
    2) 8:19 appointed time of the end
    3) 8:20 Medo-Persian kingdom
    4) 8:21 Greek kingdom
    5) 8:22 4 kingdoms coming out of the 1 Greek kingdom
    6) 8:23 end of their kingdom, which is therefore 100% of the 4 Greek Kingdoms.

    There is NO OTHER way to honestly understand this passage. You choose to IGNORE the explanation and follow your OWN speculation based upon your OWN interpretation of the vision. I choose not to start with my own explanation, but choose to start with what the angel says.
    As I say, IF you choose to IGNORE what the angel says is the explanation THEN no one can help you.

  15. #45

    Re: When is The TIME OF THE END?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    What we are looking at is WHAT the angel MEANT by the statement "time of the end."
    So we MUST read what the angel says IS the "time of the end". The angel declares in the very next verse this:
    Dan 8:20 As for the ram that you saw with the two horns, these are the kings of Media and Persia.
    Dan 8:21 And the goat is the king of Greece. And the great horn between his eyes is the first king.

    Now are you REALLY going to say that the angel did NOT mean that the ram with its two horns was Media and Persia?
    When you ACCEPT that the angel REALLY said THIS is the kingdom in the vision THEN you will KNOW the context.


    As I do NOT believe the WHOLE Book of Daniel refers SOLELY to events in the 2nd Century BC, then I am not a partial preterist.
    Are you arguing that NONE of Daniel was in the past? Do you NOT agree that the Head of Gold was Babylon of the past?
    I am simply highlighting WHICH parts of Daniel have happened. Just about EVERYBODY agrees that 69 of the 70 weeks are in the past - does that make them partial preterist?
    I don't follow a single partial preterist teaching. However this does NOT mean that I believe that ALL of Daniel, or even a majority of Daniel is in the future.
    You are IGNORING what the angel SPECIFICALLY states WHEN you IGNORE the explanation given by the angel as to what the ram and goat are.
    Now IF you ACCEPT what the angel says and ACKNOWLEDGE that the ram and goat are Medo-Persia and Greece THEN being consistent you will agree that the kingdom in view IS the Greek kingdom:
    Dan 8:22 As for the horn that was broken, in place of which four others arose, four kingdoms shall arise from his nation, but not with his power.
    Dan 8:23 And at the latter end of their kingdom, when the transgressors have reached their limit, a king of bold face, one who understands riddles, shall arise.

    Dan 8:23 does NOT allow for an alternative understanding.
    The FACTUAL statements in Dan 8 are this:
    1) 8:17 time of the end
    2) 8:19 appointed time of the end
    3) 8:20 Medo-Persian kingdom
    4) 8:21 Greek kingdom
    5) 8:22 4 kingdoms coming out of the 1 Greek kingdom
    6) 8:23 end of their kingdom, which is therefore 100% of the 4 Greek Kingdoms.

    There is NO OTHER way to honestly understand this passage. You choose to IGNORE the explanation and follow your OWN speculation based upon your OWN interpretation of the vision. I choose not to start with my own explanation, but choose to start with what the angel says.
    As I say, IF you choose to IGNORE what the angel says is the explanation THEN no one can help you.
    Like i said i'm not a preterist nor do i hold to there beliefs i don't need help nor have i asked for it( i could just look up how preterits interpret Daniel 8 & 11 and find exactly what your stating) you believe the time of the end was 164 BC. Then by all means for you it is. =) I think we are done with this debate don't you? I just want to reiterate we aren't disagree on what the angel said the only thing we disagree on is who the little horn is, that about it.

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