And this is why I think they are viewed as "virgins"--not because they had been celibate, but because they had chosen a path of Christian purity, and in the Kingdom of Christ come to be viewed as pure and innocent of fornication. It is, I think, unrealistic to view all 144,000 as celibates, particularly since celibacy is not in Jewish beliefs desirable. God's wish is for the remnant to blossom into a nation--not the reverse.
The nature of this 144,000 being "faultless" is no different from how Christians are to view themselves today, as forgiven, cleansed, and given a new nature in Christ. So we can all, perhaps, view ourselves as future "virgins" in the Kingdom of God.
14:14 has the Son of Man harvesting and 14:17 has an angel harvesting. Now this is a problem for those who have the 144K meaning a rapture preceding the harvest. However it is not a problem if you see those who are harvested by the Son of Man being those who are raptured followed by Armageddon.
I believe you see everything as chronological so you have some rapture of Israel followed by rapture of the church followed by wrath followed by the events of Rev 15 - 19.
For me each vision gives a shift of perspective or focus, dealing with Israel, the church and the world. Also showing the end from the beginning.
Also i don't believe everything is Chronological, as I've said repeatedly your the one who believes Revelations 12 comes immediately after Revelations 11 and that Satan falling to earth is the third Woe =) even though this is clearly not mentioned along with the other events mentioned with the 7th trumpet found in Revelations 11:15-19. I do believe some chapters are indeed chronological and we shouldn't divide them to make incorrect views (like post-trib) work but i digress.
Still i don't understand what You are saying are you claiming Revelations 14:14 is the rapture before Armageddon?
Yes or NO?
Sometimes hard working out what you are actually claiming.
As for various visions Revelation is full of changes.
We have switches WITHIN a vision / event, and we have switches from one vision / event to another.
So in Rev 14:1 is looking at Mount Zion
Rev 14:2 has a voice from heaven, which shows that the Mount Zion is on earth.
Rev 14:6 has the word "then" which shows a change to the next thing.
Rev 14:14 has another "then" and a switch to seeing the one in the clouds.
Rev 14:17 has another "then" with an angel coming out of the temple in heaven.
Now each one of these "then" can be in the same location or can be a different one.
Now Rev 14:14 and 14:17 have TWO different sickles and TWO different harvests.
However what is clear is that Rev 14:1 is NOT the same vision as Rev 13. Rev 14 is about the 144K and Jesus, but Rev 13 is about the AC and the false prophet.
So to say there aren't different visions is a bit strange. Perhaps you mean it is ONE vision, but would accept with different aspects.
You do indeed digress. So why don't you see them as chronological when your entire proof has been that you don't see them as different visions (as above)?Also i don't believe everything is Chronological, as I've said repeatedly your the one who believes Revelations 12 comes immediately after Revelations 11 and that Satan falling to earth is the third Woe =) even though this is clearly not mentioned along with the other events mentioned with the 7th trumpet found in Revelations 11:15-19. I do believe some chapters are indeed chronological and we shouldn't divide them to make incorrect views (like post-trib) work but i digress.
Yes the Rapture occurs BEFORE Armageddon, though exactly how much before is not specified. It may be momentarily before or a few days.Still i don't understand what You are saying are you claiming Revelations 14:14 is the rapture before Armageddon?
Yes or NO?
Either way it is a Post Trib view as Armageddon is the End of the Beast.
Revelations 12-16(on earth in order) Focus mainly on the women Israel.
Revelations 17-18 The Judgments of Babylon, leading into chap 19 when John ends up once more in Heaven with the Saints for the Marriage supper of the Lamb and the coming of Jesus on a white horse with Revelations 17-22 once more being in Chronological order =). Hope that clears my view up.
I guess my last question is do you also believe Matthew 24:31 is the rapture?
You are correct, The first harvest, the Firstfruits harvest is part of the harvest of Israel. The resurrection and harvest at the end of the age. It is the 144,000 servants of God
Matt 13:39 "The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But [B]the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.[/B]
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