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Thread: The 144,000 of Rev 14

  1. #16
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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Oh because they quite clearly are the same event, but since you don't believe so please tell us all.

    Whose being harvested in Revelations 14:14, who is the son of man on the cloud and where is he gathering this harvest too? I doubt you can answer any of these questions as a post-trib viewholder most of the time you position just pretends these passages don't exist.
    Yes, I hold a post-trib view according to scripture. I believe I have highlighted why the two passages are NOT the same.

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Yes, I hold a post-trib view according to scripture. I believe I have highlighted why the two passages are NOT the same.
    So as a post-trib holder who is the Son of man Harvesting and where are they taken? We all want to know . Idk why you seem unable to answer any question to defend your positions!

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    So as a post-trib holder who is the Son of man Harvesting and where are they taken? We all want to know . Idk why you seem unable to answer any question to defend your positions!
    Answering a mindless question doesn't make me any different from the question. If you are discerning, you'll find that the answer to your question has been repeated in my posts several times.

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Answering a mindless question doesn't make me any different from the question. If you are discerning, you'll find that the answer to your question has been repeated in my posts several times.
    Really then help me out i can't find your answer, who is the Son of man Harvesting and where are they taken?

    Its ok man just say i don't know my position never seems to mention this harvest.. as all your post-trib brothers will

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

    Rev 14:2
    And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

    4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
    5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

    The passage says the 144,000 were redeemed from the earth and most interestingly virgins.

    My understanding is:

    1. These people are literal because we are told that they were redeemed from the earth as firstfruits.
    2. They followed the Lamb wherever he went - suggests they are adults and if so, were they celibate out of choice or does God have a hand in their lifestyle?
    3. Verse 5 says no guile was found in their mouth and they were without fault before God - how do we reconcile this with Rom 3:10 "As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one?

    But if we interpret them to be figurative, what then is their significance?
    The 144,000 are vital to the time of the end... They are Messanic, virgin men, who carry the message of the gospel and the kingdom of God to a lost nation, Israel..They come out of GT, which means the resurrection and translation occurs during GT.. If I had to make a guess, and sometimes I do, they'll range in age from 27-30....

  6. #21

    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

    Rev 14:2
    And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

    4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
    5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

    The passage says the 144,000 were redeemed from the earth and most interestingly virgins.

    My understanding is:

    1. These people are literal because we are told that they were redeemed from the earth as firstfruits.
    2. They followed the Lamb wherever he went - suggests they are adults and if so, were they celibate out of choice or does God have a hand in their lifestyle?
    3. Verse 5 says no guile was found in their mouth and they were without fault before God - how do we reconcile this with Rom 3:10 "As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one?

    But if we interpret them to be figurative, what then is their significance?
    This is quite difficult, but I'll throw my two cents out. I think this vision looks *forward* into the future, viewing the position of these 144,000 Jews as inheriting with Christ the future Kingdom. It seems to be a guarantee of Israel's inheritance, because they are seen on Mt. Zion as "first fruits." Also, the vision indicates they had already been redeemed from the earth, ie not just saved, but also glorified. So this is a prolepsis, a vision of a future state not yet realized in our own time.

    And this is why I think they are viewed as "virgins"--not because they had been celibate, but because they had chosen a path of Christian purity, and in the Kingdom of Christ come to be viewed as pure and innocent of fornication. It is, I think, unrealistic to view all 144,000 as celibates, particularly since celibacy is not in Jewish beliefs desirable. God's wish is for the remnant to blossom into a nation--not the reverse.

    The nature of this 144,000 being "faultless" is no different from how Christians are to view themselves today, as forgiven, cleansed, and given a new nature in Christ. So we can all, perhaps, view ourselves as future "virgins" in the Kingdom of God.

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Really then help me out i can't find your answer, who is the Son of man Harvesting and where are they taken?

    Its ok man just say i don't know my position never seems to mention this harvest.. as all your post-trib brothers will
    A bit bizarre to say post-trib doesn't have an answer. There are TWO harvests mentioned as well as the 144K which is a different vision.
    14:14 has the Son of Man harvesting and 14:17 has an angel harvesting. Now this is a problem for those who have the 144K meaning a rapture preceding the harvest. However it is not a problem if you see those who are harvested by the Son of Man being those who are raptured followed by Armageddon.
    I believe you see everything as chronological so you have some rapture of Israel followed by rapture of the church followed by wrath followed by the events of Rev 15 - 19.
    For me each vision gives a shift of perspective or focus, dealing with Israel, the church and the world. Also showing the end from the beginning.

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    A bit bizarre to say post-trib doesn't have an answer. There are TWO harvests mentioned as well as the 144K which is a different vision.
    14:14 has the Son of Man harvesting and 14:17 has an angel harvesting. Now this is a problem for those who have the 144K meaning a rapture preceding the harvest. However it is not a problem if you see those who are harvested by the Son of Man being those who are raptured followed by Armageddon.
    I believe you see everything as chronological so you have some rapture of Israel followed by rapture of the church followed by wrath followed by the events of Rev 15 - 19.
    For me each vision gives a shift of perspective or focus, dealing with Israel, the church and the world. Also showing the end from the beginning.
    No i don't believe Israel is ever raptured =). And whenever you claim "its a different vision" i'm always blown away because these never seem to be mentioned in the passages as you divide them as you see fit.

    Also i don't believe everything is Chronological, as I've said repeatedly your the one who believes Revelations 12 comes immediately after Revelations 11 and that Satan falling to earth is the third Woe =) even though this is clearly not mentioned along with the other events mentioned with the 7th trumpet found in Revelations 11:15-19. I do believe some chapters are indeed chronological and we shouldn't divide them to make incorrect views (like post-trib) work but i digress.

    Still i don't understand what You are saying are you claiming Revelations 14:14 is the rapture before Armageddon?
    Yes or NO?

  9. #24
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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    No i don't believe Israel is ever raptured =). And whenever you claim "its a different vision" i'm always blown away because these never seem to be mentioned in the passages as you divide them as you see fit.
    So you don't think the 144K are gathered BEFORE the Church?
    Sometimes hard working out what you are actually claiming.
    As for various visions Revelation is full of changes.
    We have switches WITHIN a vision / event, and we have switches from one vision / event to another.
    So in Rev 14:1 is looking at Mount Zion
    Rev 14:2 has a voice from heaven, which shows that the Mount Zion is on earth.
    Rev 14:6 has the word "then" which shows a change to the next thing.
    Rev 14:14 has another "then" and a switch to seeing the one in the clouds.
    Rev 14:17 has another "then" with an angel coming out of the temple in heaven.
    Now each one of these "then" can be in the same location or can be a different one.
    Now Rev 14:14 and 14:17 have TWO different sickles and TWO different harvests.
    However what is clear is that Rev 14:1 is NOT the same vision as Rev 13. Rev 14 is about the 144K and Jesus, but Rev 13 is about the AC and the false prophet.
    So to say there aren't different visions is a bit strange. Perhaps you mean it is ONE vision, but would accept with different aspects.

    Also i don't believe everything is Chronological, as I've said repeatedly your the one who believes Revelations 12 comes immediately after Revelations 11 and that Satan falling to earth is the third Woe =) even though this is clearly not mentioned along with the other events mentioned with the 7th trumpet found in Revelations 11:15-19. I do believe some chapters are indeed chronological and we shouldn't divide them to make incorrect views (like post-trib) work but i digress.
    You do indeed digress. So why don't you see them as chronological when your entire proof has been that you don't see them as different visions (as above)?

    Still i don't understand what You are saying are you claiming Revelations 14:14 is the rapture before Armageddon?
    Yes or NO?
    Yes the Rapture occurs BEFORE Armageddon, though exactly how much before is not specified. It may be momentarily before or a few days.
    Either way it is a Post Trib view as Armageddon is the End of the Beast.

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    The only way you can understand first fruits is to read the rest of the chapter they are the first-fruits of the harvest of the Earth they are first fruits of the house of Israel redeemed among men since they are clearly sealed from the Jewish people. Then comes the Harvest by the Son of man Revelations 14:14-16 followed of course by the grapes of wrath harvest.

    So no they aren't the first to go to Heaven after Jesus, They are separate them from the rest of the harvest of the earth because they meet the lamb on mount Zion.
    If the 144k are the firstfruits of Israel redeemed from the Jews, why would they be different from the harvest in 14:16?

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    This is quite difficult, but I'll throw my two cents out. I think this vision looks *forward* into the future, viewing the position of these 144,000 Jews as inheriting with Christ the future Kingdom. It seems to be a guarantee of Israel's inheritance, because they are seen on Mt. Zion as "first fruits." Also, the vision indicates they had already been redeemed from the earth, ie not just saved, but also glorified. So this is a prolepsis, a vision of a future state not yet realized in our own time.

    And this is why I think they are viewed as "virgins"--not because they had been celibate, but because they had chosen a path of Christian purity, and in the Kingdom of Christ come to be viewed as pure and innocent of fornication. It is, I think, unrealistic to view all 144,000 as celibates, particularly since celibacy is not in Jewish beliefs desirable. God's wish is for the remnant to blossom into a nation--not the reverse.

    The nature of this 144,000 being "faultless" is no different from how Christians are to view themselves today, as forgiven, cleansed, and given a new nature in Christ. So we can all, perhaps, view ourselves as future "virgins" in the Kingdom of God.
    I agree it's quite problematic. Perhaps they fulfil God's promise that He would reserve a remnant of Israel unto Himself?

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    So you don't think the 144K are gathered BEFORE the Church?
    No i don't believe the 144k are gathered before the church but they are sealed before the multitude arrives in Heaven.
    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Sometimes hard working out what you are actually claiming.
    Sorry for that =)
    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    As for various visions Revelation is full of changes.
    We have switches WITHIN a vision / event, and we have switches from one vision / event to another.
    So in Rev 14:1 is looking at Mount Zion
    Rev 14:2 has a voice from heaven, which shows that the Mount Zion is on earth.
    Rev 14:6 has the word "then" which shows a change to the next thing.
    Rev 14:14 has another "then" and a switch to seeing the one in the clouds.
    Rev 14:17 has another "then" with an angel coming out of the temple in heaven.
    Now each one of these "then" can be in the same location or can be a different one.
    Now Rev 14:14 and 14:17 have TWO different sickles and TWO different harvests.
    Correct but these aren't "different visions" its all one vision with a clear order, the thens tells is one thing happens before the next not that John is having a bunch of separate visions with no clear order.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    However what is clear is that Rev 14:1 is NOT the same vision as Rev 13. Rev 14 is about the 144K and Jesus, but Rev 13 is about the AC and the false prophet.
    So to say there aren't different visions is a bit strange. Perhaps you mean it is ONE vision, but would accept with different aspects.
    This is the error Revelations 14 is the same vision as Revelations 12-13 and i believe it comes immediately after. Meaning after the tribulations of those days (GT) Jesus will come to Mount Zion and then afterwards he will come in the clouds with great glory as he says in the Olive discourse. I know you remember all the passages about salvation coming on Mount Zion from one of our previous discussions. Here are a view for others if they can't find it. Isaiah 52:6-10 Obadiah 1:17 Isaiah 24:23 Isaiah 37:31-32 Isaiah 40:9 Nahum 1:15, Joel 2:32, Joel 3:16-21 Isaiah 4:2-3, Jeremiah 31:7 Psalm 50:15 Zechariah 13:9. I thinks thats good for here


    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    You do indeed digress. So why don't you see them as chronological when your entire proof has been that you don't see them as different visions (as above)?
    Mainly because John never speaks of being given multiple visions I believe Revelations 4-11(in order) describe the events that take place in heaven.

    Revelations 12-16(on earth in order) Focus mainly on the women Israel.

    Revelations 17-18 The Judgments of Babylon, leading into chap 19 when John ends up once more in Heaven with the Saints for the Marriage supper of the Lamb and the coming of Jesus on a white horse with Revelations 17-22 once more being in Chronological order =). Hope that clears my view up.



    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Yes the Rapture occurs BEFORE Armageddon, though exactly how much before is not specified. It may be momentarily before or a few days.
    Either way it is a Post Trib view as Armageddon is the End of the Beast.
    I agree, with just about everything in your statement, since i'm pre-trib

    I guess my last question is do you also believe Matthew 24:31 is the rapture?

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    If the 144k are the firstfruits of Israel redeemed from the Jews, why would they be different from the harvest in 14:16?
    Different isn't the right word they are definitely a part of the harvest, You just always present the first fruits to God first before you reap the main harvest but personally i believe this whole chap speaks of the harvest of Israel. Still i am waiting for you answer my brother who do you believe is being harvested from the earth?

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Different isn't the right word they are definitely a part of the harvest, You just always present the first fruits to God first before you reap the main harvest but personally i believe this whole chap speaks of the harvest of Israel. Still i am waiting for you answer my brother who do you believe is being harvested from the earth?

    You are correct, The first harvest, the Firstfruits harvest is part of the harvest of Israel. The resurrection and harvest at the end of the age. It is the 144,000 servants of God

    Matt 13:39 "The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.

    Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

    Rev 20:5 But [B]the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.[/B]

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Different isn't the right word they are definitely a part of the harvest, You just always present the first fruits to God first before you reap the main harvest but personally i believe this whole chap speaks of the harvest of Israel. Still i am waiting for you answer my brother who do you believe is being harvested from the earth?
    That is a question worthy of its own thread. I'll start one.

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