My question to you is, have come where?
The passage then says they(church) defeated the dragon and how they did so. Then is says Therefore Rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them!
Who in your view is this voice telling to Rejoice, who are the you who dwell in them(heaven)?
I believe that prior to the eternal state of heaven and earth there must come to be many nations of faith--nations who share the faith of Abraham, which is the Christian faith. The history of Israel shows how difficult this process is in bringing this about. Israel did develop into a nation of faith. But the inevitable encroachment of neighboring paganism appealed to Israel's "common denominator," the sin nature, and ultimately the whole nation capitulated to sin, with the exception of a small remnant of devoted men and women of faith.
So Israel went into captivity, and appeared to have lost her hope of becoming a godly nation for all eternity. However, God's purpose cannot be thwarted. He *will* have a godly Israel one day. And so, God showed His determined purpose to make a godly Israel by promising national restoration following the captivity. Even though it was only a remnant that returned, it did show God's ultimate determination to re-create the whole nation and to make it godly once again.
So today we live in a period in which Israel remains in captivity, in a sense--in Diaspora. Meanwhile, God has used this episode with Israel's failure to reach out to nations equally unworthy like Israel--nations who have not even started, as Israel did so long ago.
So God has now made a start with virtually every major nation on earth, in one way or another. Yes, some nations never became a Christian nation as such. But some of the big nations like China did have major Christian populations evolved within them.
At any rate, God's purpose remains to have godly nations on earth--ones that endure and remain. Israel has to come back to the Lord, be fully reconstituted as a nation, which it has, and then adopt the Christian faith. Similarly, all nations who have either become fully Christian or even partly Christian must return to their Christian roots, and not continue being swept up in the apostasies and paganism of our age.
All this to say, I do believe that the 144,000 on Mt. Zion are a prolepsis, a picture of Israel's future. They get there as a remnant. But the ultimate goal is a fully reconstituted Christian nation, in the midst of an international community that has many Christian nations or many nations with strong Christian populations. This will, I believe, fulfil the promise God made to Abraham, that he become the father of *many nations.*
The passage is not saying that the dead in Christ once risen suddenly becomes those who are alive and remain. Follow the sequence:
1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
The DEAD IN CHRIST rises FIRST.
1 Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The alive and remain refer to the survivors of the GT, not the resurrected.
So yes, good point. God's foremost desire is to see Christian nations, ie nations that adopt the Christian belief system--whether it is fully implemented, practiced, or not. But there may be room for Abraham to get partial nations, ie less than whole nations where there is a sub-population of Christians of substantial proportions within a larger nation that is not officially Christian.
It is not even all of the tribes of Israel because only eleven tribes of Israel are mentioned Dan is replaced by Manasseh. The church follows the lamb wherever He goes as we do what He says and their is no guilt in us as He has redeemed us.
We also find this mentioned in Obadiah 1:17 But upon mount Zion shall be deliverance, and there shall be holiness; and the house of Jacob shall possess their possessions.
21 “As for me, this is my covenant with them,” says the Lord. “My Spirit, who is on you, will not depart from you, and my words that I have put in your mouth will always be on your lips, on the lips of your children and on the lips of their descendants—from this time on and forever,” says the Lord.
It says "on the lips of your children" yes these ones had children. And what does Revelation says about them?
4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb
Yes it says that they remained virgins so how do virgins have children?
As for Obadiah the Edom hasn't had any land since 500 years before Jesus came.
When quoting the OT the context of the chapter or book needs to be understood
Last edited by marty fox; Jan 9th 2017 at 01:13 AM. Reason: Added sentence
So i'll ask you again doesn't Isaiah 59:20 clearly make your whole figurative of the church premise false?
20“And a Redeemer will come to Zion,
to those in Jacob who turn from transgression,” declares the LORD.21“And as for me, this is my covenant with them,” says the LORD: “My Spirit that is upon you, and my words that I have put in your mouth, shall not depart out of your mouth, or out of the mouth of your offspring, or out of the mouth of your children’s offspring,” says the LORD, “from this time forth and forevermore.”
Do you now admit that your premise that this is figurative of both Jew and Gentile (church) is false? And that Revelations 14 is a fulfillment of Isaiah 59:20?
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