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Thread: The 144,000 of Rev 14

  1. #46
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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Just curious where do you fit Revelations 12:10-12 into your view? Revelations 12:10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers[b] has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. 11 And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death. 12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them!
    The battle in heaven occurs just prior to the 1260 days

    Where do you see it

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    The battle in heaven occurs just prior to the 1260 days

    Where do you see it
    Correct but this passage clearly says that The kingdom of our God (church) and the Authority of his Christ have come.

    My question to you is, have come where?

    The passage then says they(church) defeated the dragon and how they did so. Then is says Therefore Rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them!

    Who in your view is this voice telling to Rejoice, who are the you who dwell in them(heaven)?

  3. #48

    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I agree it's quite problematic. Perhaps they fulfil God's promise that He would reserve a remnant of Israel unto Himself?
    That's certainly what I believe. Not to kick a dead horse, but I will briefly reiterate my own personal beliefs, for what it's worth. I don't, however, want to detract from the focus upon the 144,000 themselves.

    I believe that prior to the eternal state of heaven and earth there must come to be many nations of faith--nations who share the faith of Abraham, which is the Christian faith. The history of Israel shows how difficult this process is in bringing this about. Israel did develop into a nation of faith. But the inevitable encroachment of neighboring paganism appealed to Israel's "common denominator," the sin nature, and ultimately the whole nation capitulated to sin, with the exception of a small remnant of devoted men and women of faith.

    So Israel went into captivity, and appeared to have lost her hope of becoming a godly nation for all eternity. However, God's purpose cannot be thwarted. He *will* have a godly Israel one day. And so, God showed His determined purpose to make a godly Israel by promising national restoration following the captivity. Even though it was only a remnant that returned, it did show God's ultimate determination to re-create the whole nation and to make it godly once again.

    So today we live in a period in which Israel remains in captivity, in a sense--in Diaspora. Meanwhile, God has used this episode with Israel's failure to reach out to nations equally unworthy like Israel--nations who have not even started, as Israel did so long ago.

    So God has now made a start with virtually every major nation on earth, in one way or another. Yes, some nations never became a Christian nation as such. But some of the big nations like China did have major Christian populations evolved within them.

    At any rate, God's purpose remains to have godly nations on earth--ones that endure and remain. Israel has to come back to the Lord, be fully reconstituted as a nation, which it has, and then adopt the Christian faith. Similarly, all nations who have either become fully Christian or even partly Christian must return to their Christian roots, and not continue being swept up in the apostasies and paganism of our age.

    All this to say, I do believe that the 144,000 on Mt. Zion are a prolepsis, a picture of Israel's future. They get there as a remnant. But the ultimate goal is a fully reconstituted Christian nation, in the midst of an international community that has many Christian nations or many nations with strong Christian populations. This will, I believe, fulfil the promise God made to Abraham, that he become the father of *many nations.*

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    That's certainly what I believe. Not to kick a dead horse, but I will briefly reiterate my own personal beliefs, for what it's worth. I don't, however, want to detract from the focus upon the 144,000 themselves.

    I believe that prior to the eternal state of heaven and earth there must come to be many nations of faith--nations who share the faith of Abraham, which is the Christian faith. The history of Israel shows how difficult this process is in bringing this about. Israel did develop into a nation of faith. But the inevitable encroachment of neighboring paganism appealed to Israel's "common denominator," the sin nature, and ultimately the whole nation capitulated to sin, with the exception of a small remnant of devoted men and women of faith.

    So Israel went into captivity, and appeared to have lost her hope of becoming a godly nation for all eternity. However, God's purpose cannot be thwarted. He *will* have a godly Israel one day. And so, God showed His determined purpose to make a godly Israel by promising national restoration following the captivity. Even though it was only a remnant that returned, it did show God's ultimate determination to re-create the whole nation and to make it godly once again.

    So today we live in a period in which Israel remains in captivity, in a sense--in Diaspora. Meanwhile, God has used this episode with Israel's failure to reach out to nations equally unworthy like Israel--nations who have not even started, as Israel did so long ago.

    So God has now made a start with virtually every major nation on earth, in one way or another. Yes, some nations never became a Christian nation as such. But some of the big nations like China did have major Christian populations evolved within them.

    At any rate, God's purpose remains to have godly nations on earth--ones that endure and remain. Israel has to come back to the Lord, be fully reconstituted as a nation, which it has, and then adopt the Christian faith. Similarly, all nations who have either become fully Christian or even partly Christian must return to their Christian roots, and not continue being swept up in the apostasies and paganism of our age.

    All this to say, I do believe that the 144,000 on Mt. Zion are a prolepsis, a picture of Israel's future. They get there as a remnant. But the ultimate goal is a fully reconstituted Christian nation, in the midst of an international community that has many Christian nations or many nations with strong Christian populations. This will, I believe, fulfil the promise God made to Abraham, that he become the father of *many nations.*
    While this is plausible, its practicality has me scratching my head. What is the chance of China, India, etc ever coming to Christ with enough numbers to be called a Christian nation when money has become their god? China particularly sees religion as a distraction from development and progress.

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Sure.....the dead in Christ once risen become those who are alive and remain...

    The dead in Christ shall rise first then we (the dead in Christ resurrected) which (now) are alive and remain shall be caught together with (others) whom sleep.

    Paul speaks 1cor15 that we are made ALIVE from the dead at the resurrection.
    Incorrect.
    The passage is not saying that the dead in Christ once risen suddenly becomes those who are alive and remain. Follow the sequence:

    1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    The DEAD IN CHRIST rises FIRST.

    1 Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    The alive and remain refer to the survivors of the GT, not the resurrected.

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Symbolic as the church the 144 000 made up of the 144=12 tribes x the 12 disciples and 1000 meaning many. Just like Jesus hears of the symbolic lamb he turns and sees the symbolic lion John hears of the 144 000 and then sees the great multitude of every tribe tong & nation
    By maintaining that the 144,000 is symbolic, you refute the factors that clearly indicate that they are literal? The passage painstakingly described the unique attributes of the 144k, ie, they are virgins, not defiled by women, they follow the Lamb wherever he goes, no guile was found in them. And against this backdrop, you still believe they are only symbolic of the church?

  7. #52

    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    While this is plausible, its practicality has me scratching my head. What is the chance of China, India, etc ever coming to Christ with enough numbers to be called a Christian nation when money has become their god? China particularly sees religion as a distraction from development and progress.
    Yes, I quite agree with you. I think it's possible that there are two--not one--definitions for "Abrahamic nations." This is in fulfillment of the promise to Abraham that he would father many nations. One, a Christian nation fulfils the requirement that it be an "Abrahamic nation." But two, half-nations or partial-nations may also fulfil the requirement of an "Abrahamic nation" if there is only a sub-population of Christians within a broader secular nation. It could conceivably be considered by God to be a "nation within a nation."

    So yes, good point. God's foremost desire is to see Christian nations, ie nations that adopt the Christian belief system--whether it is fully implemented, practiced, or not. But there may be room for Abraham to get partial nations, ie less than whole nations where there is a sub-population of Christians of substantial proportions within a larger nation that is not officially Christian.

  8. #53
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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    By maintaining that the 144,000 is symbolic, you refute the factors that clearly indicate that they are literal? The passage painstakingly described the unique attributes of the 144k, ie, they are virgins, not defiled by women, they follow the Lamb wherever he goes, no guile was found in them. And against this backdrop, you still believe they are only symbolic of the church?
    When it states that they are virgins it is meaning pure as we are a pure church. It doesn't state that they are men even women can defile themselves with other women. The church is called the bride of Christ but that doesn't men that we are all women.

    It is not even all of the tribes of Israel because only eleven tribes of Israel are mentioned Dan is replaced by Manasseh. The church follows the lamb wherever He goes as we do what He says and their is no guilt in us as He has redeemed us.

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    When it states that they are virgins it is meaning pure as we are a pure church. It doesn't state that they are men even women can defile themselves with other women. The church is called the bride of Christ but that doesn't men that we are all women.

    It is not even all of the tribes of Israel because only eleven tribes of Israel are mentioned Dan is replaced by Manasseh. The church follows the lamb wherever He goes as we do what He says and their is no guilt in us as He has redeemed us.
    How do you reconcile your view with Isaiah 59 20“And a Redeemer will come to Zion,to those in Jacob who turn from transgression,” declares the LORD. This passage is clearly a fulfillment of this prophesy do you deny this?

    We also find this mentioned in Obadiah 1:17 But upon mount Zion shall be deliverance, and there shall be holiness; and the house of Jacob shall possess their possessions.

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    How do you reconcile your view with Isaiah 59 20“And a Redeemer will come to Zion,to those in Jacob who turn from transgression,” declares the LORD. This passage is clearly a fulfillment of this prophesy do you deny this?

    We also find this mentioned in Obadiah 1:17 But upon mount Zion shall be deliverance, and there shall be holiness; and the house of Jacob shall possess their possessions.
    If you think Isaiah 59 is about the 144 000 have you read the rest of the chapter? These were evil people who repented and are saved. Verse 21 disqualifies your claim if literal.

    Isaiah 59:21
    21 “As for me, this is my covenant with them,” says the Lord. “My Spirit, who is on you, will not depart from you, and my words that I have put in your mouth will always be on your lips, on the lips of your children and on the lips of their descendants—from this time on and forever,” says the Lord.

    It says "on the lips of your children" yes these ones had children. And what does Revelation says about them?

    Revelation 14:4
    4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb

    Yes it says that they remained virgins so how do virgins have children?

    As for Obadiah the Edom hasn't had any land since 500 years before Jesus came.

    When quoting the OT the context of the chapter or book needs to be understood
    Last edited by marty fox; Jan 9th 2017 at 01:13 AM. Reason: Added sentence

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Correct but this passage clearly says that The kingdom of our God (church) and the Authority of his Christ have come.

    My question to you is, have come where?

    The passage then says they(church) defeated the dragon and how they did so. Then is says Therefore Rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them!

    Who in your view is this voice telling to Rejoice, who are the you who dwell in them(heaven)?
    The ones in heaven would be those mentioned in the 5th seal Rev 6 :9 those martyred

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    If you think Isaiah 59 is about the 144 000 have you read the rest of the chapter? These were evil people who repented and are saved. Verse 21 disqualifies your claim if literal.

    Isaiah 59:21
    21 “As for me, this is my covenant with them,” says the Lord. “My Spirit, who is on you, will not depart from you, and my words that I have put in your mouth will always be on your lips, on the lips of your children and on the lips of their descendants—from this time on and forever,” says the Lord.

    It says "on the lips of your children" yes these ones had children. And what does Revelation says about them?

    Revelation 14:4
    4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb

    Yes it says that they remained virgins so how do virgins have children?
    Read what your quoting man, As for this is my covenant with them the "them in Isaiah 59:21 refers to Isaiah 59:20. The you and your descendants and the children refer to the You two different groups so obviously this premise is false. The you and the your's decedents is the lord addressing the prophet Isaiah who is speaking the word.

    So i'll ask you again doesn't Isaiah 59:20 clearly make your whole figurative of the church premise false?

    20
    “And a Redeemer will come to Zion,
    to those in Jacob who turn from transgression,” declares the LORD.21“And as for me, this is my covenant with them,” says the LORD: My Spirit that is upon you, and my words that I have put in your mouth, shall not depart out of your mouth, or out of the mouth of your offspring, or out of the mouth of your children’s offspring,” says the LORD, “from this time forth and forevermore.”

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    The ones in heaven would be those mentioned in the 5th seal Rev 6 :9 those martyred
    So only those martyred are part of the Kingdom of Heaven?

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Read what your quoting man, As for this is my covenant with them the "them in Isaiah 59:21 refers to Isaiah 59:20. The you and your descendants and the children refer to the You two different groups so obviously this premise is false. The you and the your's decedents is the lord addressing the prophet Isaiah who is speaking the word.

    So i'll ask you again doesn't Isaiah 59:20 clearly make your whole figurative of the church premise false?
    No because Isaiah 59 is about Jews the 144 000 is the church made up of both Jew and Gentile.

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    No because Isaiah 59 is about Jews the 144 000 is the church made up of both Jew and Gentile.
    Sounds like your restating your view, If Isaiah 59 is about the Jews and the bible clearly says that the 144k are from the house of Jacob(Israel) Revelations 7:4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

    Do you now admit that your premise that this is figurative of both Jew and Gentile (church) is false? And that Revelations 14 is a fulfillment of Isaiah 59:20?

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