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Thread: The 144,000 of Rev 14

  1. #61
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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Sounds like your restating your view, If Isaiah 59 is about the Jews and the bible clearly says that the 144k are from the house of Jacob(Israel) Revelations 7:4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

    Do you now admit that you premise that this is figurative of both Jew and Gentile (church) is false?
    No I have clearly stated that I believe the 144 000 is the symbolic for the church which is true Israel. They are not all of the tribes as the tribe of Dan is missing.

    Just like John hears of the lion of the tribe of Judah he then sees the lamb that was slain John also hears the number 144 000 of the tribes of Israel he then sees the great multitude that no one can count of every tribe people and nation.

  2. #62
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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    So only those martyred are part of the Kingdom of Heaven?
    At that point in time those are in heaven rejoicing. It clearly states that they were martyed ....

    Yes there would be others.

  3. #63

    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    No I have clearly stated that I believe the 144 000 is the symbolic for the church which is true Israel. They are not all of the tribes as the tribe of Dan is missing.

    Just like John hears of the lion of the tribe of Judah he then sees the lamb that was slain John also hears the number 144 000 of the tribes of Israel he then sees the great multitude that no one can count of every tribe people and nation.
    I don't understand your position the bible clearly says they are sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel. Do you deny what the bible says here Revelations 7:4? And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

    Idk what the multitude has to do with the specifics of the 144k.

  4. #64

    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    At that point in time those are in heaven rejoicing. It clearly states that they were martyed ....
    No it clearly does not say they were martyred its tells how the brethren overcame the dragon. Unless your claiming that the Devil only accuses the martyrs before the throne of God day and night. Is this what your claiming?

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    I don't understand your position the bible clearly says they are sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel. Do you deny what the bible says here Revelations 7:4? And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

    Idk what the multitude has to do with the specifics of the 144k.

    No I don't deny the bible but it is not all of the tribes mentioned the tribe of Dan is missing so it is symbolic. The great multitude is the church so John hears of the lion and sees the lamb this same John also hears the 144 000 but sees the great multitude.

  6. #66

    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    No I don't deny the bible but it is not all of the tribes mentioned the tribe of Dan is missing so it is symbolic. The great multitude is the church so John hears of the lion and sees the lamb this same John also hears the 144 000 but sees the great multitude.
    So you are claiming that when the bible says all the tribes it doesn't mean all the tribes. And therefore its symbolic and not literal and now somehow the 144k now is composed of some Gentiles?

  7. #67
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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    You have me confused here. On one hand, you say the 144,000 are the harvest of Israel and then you go and quote Rev 20:4-5, where do the scriptures fit in? Are you saying the 144,000 are those in Rev 20:4, ie, the first resurrection?

    Hey Trivalee,
    I was saying that Jesuslovesus was correct that the 144,000 are the first resurrection or the first harvest (firstfruits), but only part of the resurrection of Israel. (first resurrection and another after the 1000 years are finished and the rest of the dead live again.) That would the main harvest, after the 1,ooo years.

    I quoted Matthew 13:39 to show the time of this first harvest, (firstfruits, not all firstfruits are resurrected, some are changed.)

    I quoted Rev 20:4 and 5 to show that this is the first resurrection and that the rest of the dead would not live again until the thousand years were finished, and to show that there is only one first resurrection.


    Q
    uote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Different isn't the right word they are definitely a part of the harvest, You just always present the first fruits to God first before you reap the main harvest but personally i believe this whole chap speaks of the harvest of Israel. Still i am waiting for you answer my brother who do you believe is being harvested from the earth?
    Quote Originally Posted by T W Taylor View Post
    You are correct, The first harvest, the Firstfruits harvest is part of the harvest of Israel. The resurrection and harvest at the end of the age. It is the 144,000 servants of God
    Matt 13:39 "The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age , and the reapers are the angels.

    Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

    Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    Remember, all Israel will be saved!

    Ro 11:26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;

    Ro 11:27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    So you are claiming that when the bible says all the tribes it doesn't mean all the tribes. And therefore its symbolic and not literal and now somehow the 144k now is composed of some Gentiles?
    Let me ask you a question is it all of the tribes?

    Please answer that.

    You know the answer is no because the tribe of Dan is not mentioned. So is the bible wrong? Of course not so there must be another explanation.

    Now I do believe in what the bible says so I am not disagreeing with what the bible says here but it also tells us something else.

    Romans 9:6
    It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.

    Ephesians 2:11-13
    11Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

    Yes we are apart of the true Israel

    So we can be apart of the 144 000

  9. #69

    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Let me ask you a question is it all of the tribes?

    Please answer that.

    You know the answer is no because the tribe of Dan is not mentioned. So is the bible wrong? Of course not so there must be another explanation.

    Now I do believe in what the bible says so I am not disagreeing with what the bible says here but it also tells us something else.

    Romans 9:6
    It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.

    Ephesians 2:11-13
    11Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

    Yes we are apart of the true Israel

    So we can be apart of the 144 000
    Yes its all the tribes. If God chooses to exclude tribes like Dan, then Dan does not count as God has decided. Romans 9:6 is a proof text for this.

    So please tell m according to Ephesians 2:11-13 what tribe of Israel did the church become?? The simple fact is that we didn't become any of the tribes! When God says members from the House of Israel he means House of Israel. Do you think God doesn't know the diffence between the church (breathern) and the House of Israel?

    Let me ask you if he actually meant the House of Israel how much clearer could he have written this passage? He literally spells out the 12 tribes he means doesn't he?

    This is quite clearly contrasted from the Multitude from many nations(gentiles) who for some reason God doesn't call the House of Israel(even though your claiming the church is Israel)

  10. #70
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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Yes its all the tribes. If God chooses to exclude tribes like Dan, then Dan does not count as God has decided. Romans 9:6 is a proof text for this.

    So please tell m according to Ephesians 2:11-13 what tribe of Israel did the church become?? The simple fact is that we didn't become any of the tribes! When God says members from the House of Israel he means House of Israel. Do you think God doesn't know the diffence between the church (breathern) and the House of Israel?

    Let me ask you if he actually meant the House of Israel how much clearer could he have written this passage? He literally spells out the 12 tribes he means doesn't he?

    This is quite clearly contrasted from the Multitude from many nations(gentiles) who for some reason God doesn't call the House of Israel(even though your claiming the church is Israel)
    God does not change His mind Dan was one of the original 12 tribes but now is not mentioned so it is not all of the tribes God purposely left them out for a reason.

    We didn't come from a tribe literally but according to Ephesians 2 we are now apart of true Israel spiritually not literally. Yes God knows the difference but you don't Paul states in Ephesians 2 that we are "formerly Gentiles by birth" and we "were at one time excluded from citizenship in Israel" but now "we are brought near by the blood of Christ".

    But they are not all of the twelfth tribes. Paul clearly tells us that we are a part of spiritual true Israel which means so much more than being literal Israel.

    You are incorrect that the great multitude are all gentiles it states

    Revelation 7:9
    9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

    They are from every nation tribe, people and language so the Jews are apart of this great multitude

  11. #71

    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    God does not change His mind Dan was one of the original 12 tribes but now is not mentioned so it is not all of the tribes God purposely left them out for a reason.
    Correct God chose to leave it out for a reason his reason is own

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    We didn't come from a tribe literally but according to Ephesians 2 we are now apart of true Israel spiritually not literally. Yes God knows the difference but you don't Paul states in Ephesians 2 that we are "formerly Gentiles by birth" and we "were at one time excluded from citizenship in Israel" but now "we are brought near by the blood of Christ".

    But they are not all of the twelfth tribes. Paul clearly tells us that we are a part of spiritual true Israel which means so much more than being literal Israel.
    Even in this passage Paul doesn't say we became spiritual Israel he says we have been brought near by the blood of christ.

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    You are incorrect that the great multitude are all gentiles it states

    Revelation 7:9
    9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

    They are from every nation tribe, people and language so the Jews are apart of this great multitude
    But Gentiles are excluded from the 144k, I also didn't state that the great multitude were all gentiles

  12. #72
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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Correct God chose to leave it out for a reason his reason is own

    Even in this passage Paul doesn't say we became spiritual Israel he says we have been brought near by the blood of christ.

    But Gentiles are excluded from the 144k, I also didn't state that the great multitude were all gentiles
    Read the verse again

    Ephesians 2:11-13
    11Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

    "remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel" but now "in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ".


    We were at one time excluded from citizenship of Israel so now we are citizens of Israel

    This is quite clearly contrasted from the Multitude from many nations(gentiles) who for some reason God doesn't call the House of Israel(even though your claiming the church is Israel)
    See above you did call them gentiles. They don't have to be excluded if they are true Israel God's adopted

  13. #73

    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Read the verse again

    Ephesians 2:11-13
    11Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

    "remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel" but now "in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ".


    We were at one time excluded from citizenship of Israel so now we are citizens of Israel



    This is quite clearly contrasted from the Multitude from many nations(gentiles) who for some reason God doesn't call the House of Israel(even though your claiming the church is Israel)

    See above you did call them gentiles. They don't have to be excluded if they are true Israel God's adopted
    As i said no where in this passage does it say we're now spiritual Israel? Nor does it says we are now citizens of Israel your inserting that doctrine even though the passage clearly doesn't say it.

    Exactly i called the nations gentiles unless you believe Israel is a gentile nation??? I want to reiterate when the bible says the word Nations this usually excluded Israel and therefore all nations can be considered the gentiles even though i'm not saying the multitude who come out of these nations are strictly gentiles.

  14. #74
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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    As i said no where in this passage does it say we're now spiritual Israel? Nor does it says we are now citizens of Israel your inserting that doctrine even though the passage clearly doesn't say it.

    Exactly i called the nations gentiles unless you believe Israel is a gentile nation??? I want to reiterate when the bible says the word Nations this usually excluded Israel and therefore all nations can be considered the gentiles even though i'm not saying the multitude who come out of these nations are strictly gentiles.
    Really it says "We were at one time excluded from citizenship of Israel"

    So if we were at one time excluded what does that make us the other time? Included.

    If you were at one time a non believer what would that make you now? A believer

    Please be honest and admit what you said here.

    Theses are both you words below

    This is quite clearly contrasted from the Multitude from many nations(gentiles) who for some reason God doesn't call the House of Israel(even though your claiming the church is Israel)
    But Gentiles are excluded from the 144k, I also didn't state that the great multitude were all gentiles
    Yes you did say that the multitude from many nations were gentiles.

  15. #75

    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Really it says "We were at one time excluded from citizenship of Israel"

    So if we were at one time excluded what does that make us the other time? This is crystal clear.

    If you were at one time a non believer what would that make you now?

    Please be honest and admit what you said here.

    Theses are both you words below





    Yes you did say that the multitude from many nations were gentiles.



    Really it says "We were at one time excluded from citizenship of Israel"

    So if we were at one time excluded what does that make us the other time? This is crystal clear.

    If you were at one time a non believer what would that make you now?

    Please be honest and admit what you said here.

    Theses are both you words below





    Yes you did say that the multitude from many nations were gentiles.
    Read what i said the multitude was from many nations i identified the nations as gentiles.

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