The 144,000 of Rev 14

[marty fox]

Read what i said the multitude was from many nations i identified the nations as gentiles.

Yes thanks but you also said

I also didn't state that the great multitude were all gentiles

I was just pointing out that you did say it.

[Jesuslovesus]

Yes thanks but you also said



I was just pointing out that you did say it.

Because i didn't say that, I did not state the multitude where all gentiles.

Here is my quote if you don't see the difference its not my fault these are clearly two different statments

This is quite clearly contrasted from the Multitude from many nations(gentiles) who for some reason God doesn't call the House of Israel(even though your claiming the church is Israel)

[Jesuslovesus]

Really it says "We were at one time excluded from citizenship of Israel"

So if we were at one time excluded what does that make us the other time? Included.

If you were at one time a non believer what would that make you now? A believer

Sorry but the passage doesn't say we are now citizens of Israel instead it says we have been brought near. It does identify what we are now a part of though Eph 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens,[d] but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God.

No mention of the doctrine your claiming from this passage: that now we are Israel. Your claiming the church has replaced Israel and has become a new entity called Spiritual Israel.

This passage claims that through Jesus the animosity between Israel and that Gentiles is broken and now we become citizens and members of the household of God.

14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near.18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens,[d] but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God.

Your doctrine is false (The church are now a new entity called spiritual or true Israel), Therefore it can't be used as a proof text to support the idea that Revelations 7:4 is speaking about a spiritual Israel. Unless you have another prooftext to prove this doctrine?

[marty fox]

Because i didn't say that, I did not state the multitude where all gentiles.

Here is my quote if you don't see the difference its not my fault these are clearly two different statments

This is quite clearly contrasted from the Multitude from many nations(gentiles) who for some reason God doesn't call the House of Israel(even though your claiming the church is Israel)

I don't understand how you see them being different quotes. Your quote below

from many nations(gentiles)

You call the nations gentiles above and then say

I did not state the multitude where all gentiles.

You didn't say "many nations some Jews some gentiles"

[marty fox]

Sorry but the passage doesn't say we are now citizens of Israel instead it says we have been brought near. It does identify what we are now a part of though Eph 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens,[d] but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God.

No mention of the doctrine your claiming from this passage: that now we are Israel. Your claiming the church has replaced Israel and has become a new entity called Spiritual Israel.

This passage claims that through Jesus the animosity between Israel and that Gentiles is broken and now we become citizens and members of the household of God.

14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near.18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens,[d] but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God.

Your doctrine is false (The church are now a new entity called spiritual or true Israel), Therefore it can't be used as a proof text to support the idea that Revelations 7:4 is speaking about a spiritual Israel. Unless you have another prooftext to prove this doctrine?

I think this says what I am saying the lion now lays with the lamb

[Jesuslovesus]

I think this says what I am saying the lion now lays with the lamb

Maybe you don't understand the argument you were making or maybe your changing it now.

You claimed this passage (Ephesians 2) made the Gentiles citizens of Israel and therefore when it says the House of Israel in Revelations 7:4 it could refer to the church.

Is that not what you claimed?

[Jesuslovesus]

I don't understand how you see them being different quotes. Your quote below



You call the nations gentiles above and then say



You didn't say "many nations some Jews some gentiles"

Correct the multitude comes from many gentile nations, you then said the passage says the multitude comes from all nations and therefore includes Israel.

Let me spell it out.

1)I said the multitude comes from many gentile nations - True statement
2)You said the multitude comes from all nations including Israel -True statement
3)Neither of us made the claim that the multitude was all gentiles - False statement

Your trying to say i made statement #3 but i never did do you admit this if you do not that plz post a quote from me where i claim #3 and not #1? It seems you can't recognize the difference between statements 1 & 3.

[marty fox]

Maybe you don't understand the argument you were making or maybe your changing it now.

You claimed this passage (Ephesians 2) made the Gentiles citizens of Israel and therefore when it says the House of Israel in Revelations 7:4 it could refer to the church.

Is that not what you claimed?

Yes it is............................

[marty fox]

Correct the multitude comes from many gentile nations, you then said the passage says the multitude comes from all nations and therefore includes Israel.

Let me spell it out.

1)I said the multitude comes from many gentile nations - True statement
2)You said the multitude comes from all nations including Israel -True statement
3)Neither of us made the claim that the multitude was all gentiles - False statement

Your trying to say i made statement #3 but i never did do you admit this if you do not that plz post a quote from me where i claim #3 and not #1? It seems you can't recognize the difference between statements 1 & 3.

Actually what you said was different to #1

You said "This is quite clearly contrasted from the Multitude from many nations(gentiles) who for some reason God doesn't call the House of Israel(even though your claiming the church is Israel)"

You didn't say what you had down in #1 I said the multitude comes from many gentile nations

You changed the words "nations" and "gentiles" around with gentiles in brackets as your first statement which makes a lot of difference and places what is in brackets as the description of the previous word . Could you see where I was confused?

[Jesuslovesus]

Yes it is............................

What i'm saying is this passage Ephesians 2 doesn't not claim nor support the claim that Gentiles are now citizens of the House of Israel and therefore can be refereed to as such. Instead it claims through Jesus the animosity between the 2 is reconciled and now we can all become part of the Household of God.

IOW this passage doesn't support the idea that the church has become members of the 12 tribes nor that we can be refereed to as the House of Israel. Therefore it can't be used as a proof text that the church is who God meant when he said the 144k were sealed from specifically the House of Israel.

[Trivalee]

If you think Isaiah 59 is about the 144 000 have you read the rest of the chapter? These were evil people who repented and are saved. Verse 21 disqualifies your claim if literal.

Isaiah 59:21
21 “As for me, this is my covenant with them,” says the Lord. “My Spirit, who is on you, will not depart from you, and my words that I have put in your mouth will always be on your lips, on the lips of your children and on the lips of their descendants—from this time on and forever,” says the Lord.

It says "on the lips of your children" yes these ones had children. And what does Revelation says about them?

Revelation 14:4
4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb

Yes it says that they remained virgins so how do virgins have children?

As for Obadiah the Edom hasn't had any land since 500 years before Jesus came.

When quoting the OT the context of the chapter or book needs to be understood

For what it's worth, I agree that Isaiah 59:20 and Obadiah 1:17 are not relevant to the 144,000.

[Trivalee]

No I don't deny the bible but it is not all of the tribes mentioned the tribe of Dan is missing so it is symbolic. The great multitude is the church so John hears of the lion and sees the lamb this same John also hears the 144 000 but sees the great multitude.

Marty, the 144,000 in discussion in Rev 14 is not the same as in Rev 7 which were specifically drawn from Jacob. The 144,000 from Rev 14 were drawn from "earth", there is no reference to Israel here.

[marty fox]

For what it's worth, I agree that Isaiah 59:20 and Obadiah 1:17 are not relevant to the 144,000.

Thanks Trivalee

[marty fox]

Marty, the 144,000 in discussion in Rev 14 is not the same as in Rev 7 which were specifically drawn from Jacob. The 144,000 from Rev 14 were drawn from "earth", there is no reference to Israel here.

Now this is something that I have never heard before they do both have the seal of God on there foreheads and the same number 144 000. Even though they are drawn from Jacob wouldn't that still start from the earth?

[Trivalee]

Hey Trivalee,
I was saying that Jesuslovesus was correct that the 144,000 are the first resurrection or the first harvest (firstfruits), but only part of the resurrection of Israel. (first resurrection and another after the 1000 years are finished and the rest of the dead live again.) That would the main harvest, after the 1,ooo years.

I quoted Matthew 13:39 to show the time of this first harvest, (firstfruits, not all firstfruits are resurrected, some are changed.)

I quoted Rev 20:4 and 5 to show that this is the first resurrection and that the rest of the dead would not live again until the thousand years were finished, and to show that there is only one first resurrection.

I don't believe that the 144,000 in Rev 14 are the same as the same number in Rev 7. And the Rev 14 144k as the firstfruits are therefore the first among so many of the church that rises in the first resurrection.

Matt 13:39 doesn't do justice to your case because it talks about a general harvest which can be best described as the rapture. There is nothing to indicate they are the firstfruits here.