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  1. #1
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    The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

    Rev 14:2
    And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

    4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
    5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

    The passage says the 144,000 were redeemed from the earth and most interestingly virgins.

    My understanding is:

    1. These people are literal because we are told that they were redeemed from the earth as firstfruits.
    2. They followed the Lamb wherever he went - suggests they are adults and if so, were they celibate out of choice or does God have a hand in their lifestyle?
    3. Verse 5 says no guile was found in their mouth and they were without fault before God - how do we reconcile this with Rom 3:10 "As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one?

    But if we interpret them to be figurative, what then is their significance?

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

    Rev 14:2
    And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

    4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
    [COLOR=#000000][FONT=&]5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

    The passage says the 144,000 were redeemed from the earth and most interestingly virgins.

    My understanding is:

    1. These people are literal because we are told that they were redeemed from the earth as firstfruits.
    Agree.

    2. They followed the Lamb wherever he went - suggests they are adults and if so, were they celibate out of choice or does God have a hand in their lifestyle?
    In the Greek, woman is singular. It isn't "women." Imo, it has nothing to do with sex. The "woman" is the whore of Babylon. Adulterers in the Bible are those who worship other gods. Virgins are those who worship the one true God. Hence the parable of the 10 virgins waiting on Jesus to return to go in with Him to the wedding. The 144k are people who never worshiped false gods.

    3. Verse 5 says no guile was found in their mouth and they were without fault before God - how do we reconcile this with Rom 3:10 "As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one?
    It is the same way any of us are made clean. By the blood of Christ. Also, Paul quotes from Psalm 14 and in that same text God is with the generation of the righteous. It is an interesting chapter that seems to contradict, but is actually a huge piece of evidence for the rapture of the saints. After the rapture, there are no righteous left, no, not one.
    But if we interpret them to be figurative, what then is their significance?
    I see them as literal people from the 12 literal tribes of Israel.

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    In the Greek, woman is singular. It isn't "women." Imo, it has nothing to do with sex. The "woman" is the whore of Babylon. Adulterers in the Bible are those who worship other gods. Virgins are those who worship the one true God. Hence the parable of the 10 virgins waiting on Jesus to return to go in with Him to the wedding. The 144k are people who never worshiped false gods.
    The emphasis was never about male or female. So you are saying their virginity is not about celibacy but of their righteousness? But the passage emphasised that they "did not defile themselves with women"?

    It is the same way any of us are made clean. By the blood of Christ. Also, Paul quotes from Psalm 14 and in that same text God is with the generation of the righteous. It is an interesting chapter that seems to contradict, but is actually a huge piece of evidence for the rapture of the saints. After the rapture, there are no righteous left, no, not one.
    I would like to understand the reference to "firstfruits". Doesn't it suggest they are the first to go to heaven after Jesus Christ? Isn't this what separates them from the rest of the saints?

  4. #4

    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I would like to understand the reference to "firstfruits". Doesn't it suggest they are the first to go to heaven after Jesus Christ? Isn't this what separates them from the rest of the saints?
    The only way you can understand first fruits is to read the rest of the chapter they are the first-fruits of the harvest of the Earth they are first fruits of the house of Israel redeemed among men since they are clearly sealed from the Jewish people. Then comes the Harvest by the Son of man Revelations 14:14-16 followed of course by the grapes of wrath harvest.

    So no they aren't the first to go to Heaven after Jesus, They are separate them from the rest of the harvest of the earth because they meet the lamb on mount Zion.

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    The only way you can understand first fruits is to read the rest of the chapter they are the first-fruits of the harvest of the Earth they are first fruits of the house of Israel redeemed among men since they are clearly sealed from the Jewish people. Then comes the Harvest by the Son of man Revelations 14:14-16 followed of course by the grapes of wrath harvest.

    So no they aren't the first to go to Heaven after Jesus, They are separate them from the rest of the harvest of the earth because they meet the lamb on mount Zion.
    Thank you for explaining the firstfruits, I understand it now.

  6. #6

    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Thank you for explaining the firstfruits, I understand it now.
    I hope so this isn't an Oft Analyzed chap, this is why i think its important to ask people if they believe Matthew 24:31 is the rapture then this event here in Revelations 14:14-17 must also be the rapture and quite clearly it isn't

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    I hope so this isn't an Oft Analyzed chap, this is why i think its important to ask people if they believe Matthew 24:31 is the rapture then this event here in Revelations 14:14-17 must also be the rapture and quite clearly it isn't
    You are wrongfully associating Matt 24:31 with Rev 14:14-17-19 as the same.
    The Revelation text shows TWO different reaping of people; the first we are not told where to, the second are reaped to the wrath of the Lord. we don't find this contrast in Matt 24:31. Furthermore, we are told it was the elect that was gathered and it was preceded by a Trump call. Again, we see no Trump call in Rev 14. I've given up trying to figure out why you keep forcing these clearly different passages to be the same.

  8. #8

    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    You are wrongfully associating Matt 24:31 with Rev 14:14-17-19 as the same.
    The Revelation text shows TWO different reaping of people; the first we are not told where to, the second are reaped to the wrath of the Lord. we don't find this contrast in Matt 24:31. Furthermore, we are told it was the elect that was gathered and it was preceded by a Trump call. Again, we see no Trump call in Rev 14. I've given up trying to figure out why you keep forcing these clearly different passages to be the same.
    Oh because they quite clearly are the same event, but since you don't believe so please tell us all.

    Whose being harvested in Revelations 14:14, who is the son of man on the cloud and where is he gathering this harvest too? I doubt you can answer any of these questions as a post-trib viewholder most of the time you position just pretends these passages don't exist.

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Oh because they quite clearly are the same event, but since you don't believe so please tell us all.

    Whose being harvested in Revelations 14:14, who is the son of man on the cloud and where is he gathering this harvest too? I doubt you can answer any of these questions as a post-trib viewholder most of the time you position just pretends these passages don't exist.
    Yes, I hold a post-trib view according to scripture. I believe I have highlighted why the two passages are NOT the same.

  10. #10

    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Yes, I hold a post-trib view according to scripture. I believe I have highlighted why the two passages are NOT the same.
    So as a post-trib holder who is the Son of man Harvesting and where are they taken? We all want to know . Idk why you seem unable to answer any question to defend your positions!

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    So as a post-trib holder who is the Son of man Harvesting and where are they taken? We all want to know . Idk why you seem unable to answer any question to defend your positions!
    Answering a mindless question doesn't make me any different from the question. If you are discerning, you'll find that the answer to your question has been repeated in my posts several times.

  12. #12

    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Answering a mindless question doesn't make me any different from the question. If you are discerning, you'll find that the answer to your question has been repeated in my posts several times.
    Really then help me out i can't find your answer, who is the Son of man Harvesting and where are they taken?

    Its ok man just say i don't know my position never seems to mention this harvest.. as all your post-trib brothers will

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    If my interpretations of the prophets are correct, God will bring on Israel a locust plague 3 or 4 years running. During that time, after all the food runs out and Israel faces an existential crisis, the religious leaders of Israel will announce that the population should come to Jerusalem to pray for Israel, to seek God's mercy and an end to the plague. Just after that, God will send fire throughout the land of Israel, burning every house, animal, and person into ashes who did not make the trip to Jerusalem. Isaiah refers to these people as "the survivors."

    Isaiah 1:9 Unless the Lord of hosts Had left us a few survivors, We would be like Sodom, We would be like Gomorrah.

    Isaiah 4:2 In that day the Branch of the Lord will be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth will be the pride and the adornment of the survivors of Israel.

    Isaiah 37:32 For out of Jerusalem will go forth a remnant and out of Mount Zion survivors. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.”’


    And Joel also calls them survivors.

    Joel 2:32 “And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord Will be delivered; For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem There will be those who escape, As the Lord has said, Even among the survivors whom the Lord calls.

    The survivors are those who decide to obey the call and come to Jerusalem to pray for the nation. In this context, "to call on the name of the Lord" is to travel to Jerusalem for a very large prayer meeting, and as it happens, only those who actually make the trip to Jerusalem will be saved because the rest of the country will be utterly destroyed.

    If I am right, we know these survivors as the 144,000 Jews who meet with Jesus on Mt. Zion.

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Where is the lamb?

    In heaven thus so too must already the 144000

    Which means the 144000 have already been resurrected and judged having gods name in thier foreheads.

    They are the firstfruits of the resurrection. The rest of the dead believers are not resurrected until the first resurrection once Christ returns to the earth.

    The 144000 make up the army which returns with the lamb. Why well we know they are already resurrected and they follow the lamb. Not not all can be the army since the second coming occurs before the gathering of all from the grave.

    These 144000 did not commit fornication ie receive the woman's Mark.

    These 144000 are those beheaded and seen in Rev 20:4

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    If my interpretations of the prophets are correct, God will bring on Israel a locust plague 3 or 4 years running. During that time, after all the food runs out and Israel faces an existential crisis, the religious leaders of Israel will announce that the population should come to Jerusalem to pray for Israel, to seek God's mercy and an end to the plague. Just after that, God will send fire throughout the land of Israel, burning every house, animal, and person into ashes who did not make the trip to Jerusalem. Isaiah refers to these people as "the survivors."

    Isaiah 1:9 Unless the Lord of hosts Had left us a few survivors, We would be like Sodom, We would be like Gomorrah.

    Isaiah 4:2 In that day the Branch of the Lord will be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth will be the pride and the adornment of the survivors of Israel.

    Isaiah 37:32 For out of Jerusalem will go forth a remnant and out of Mount Zion survivors. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.”’


    And Joel also calls them survivors.

    Joel 2:32 “And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord Will be delivered; For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem There will be those who escape, As the Lord has said, Even among the survivors whom the Lord calls.

    The survivors are those who decide to obey the call and come to Jerusalem to pray for the nation. In this context, "to call on the name of the Lord" is to travel to Jerusalem for a very large prayer meeting, and as it happens, only those who actually make the trip to Jerusalem will be saved because the rest of the country will be utterly destroyed.

    If I am right, we know these survivors as the 144,000 Jews who meet with Jesus on Mt. Zion.
    Agree however survivors from the second death. Theses 144000 would be the dry bones ez 38 would they not

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