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Thread: The 144,000 of Rev 14

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    The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

    Rev 14:2
    And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

    4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
    5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

    The passage says the 144,000 were redeemed from the earth and most interestingly virgins.

    My understanding is:

    1. These people are literal because we are told that they were redeemed from the earth as firstfruits.
    2. They followed the Lamb wherever he went - suggests they are adults and if so, were they celibate out of choice or does God have a hand in their lifestyle?
    3. Verse 5 says no guile was found in their mouth and they were without fault before God - how do we reconcile this with Rom 3:10 "As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one?

    But if we interpret them to be figurative, what then is their significance?

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

    Rev 14:2
    And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

    4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
    [COLOR=#000000][FONT=&]5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

    The passage says the 144,000 were redeemed from the earth and most interestingly virgins.

    My understanding is:

    1. These people are literal because we are told that they were redeemed from the earth as firstfruits.
    Agree.

    2. They followed the Lamb wherever he went - suggests they are adults and if so, were they celibate out of choice or does God have a hand in their lifestyle?
    In the Greek, woman is singular. It isn't "women." Imo, it has nothing to do with sex. The "woman" is the whore of Babylon. Adulterers in the Bible are those who worship other gods. Virgins are those who worship the one true God. Hence the parable of the 10 virgins waiting on Jesus to return to go in with Him to the wedding. The 144k are people who never worshiped false gods.

    3. Verse 5 says no guile was found in their mouth and they were without fault before God - how do we reconcile this with Rom 3:10 "As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one?
    It is the same way any of us are made clean. By the blood of Christ. Also, Paul quotes from Psalm 14 and in that same text God is with the generation of the righteous. It is an interesting chapter that seems to contradict, but is actually a huge piece of evidence for the rapture of the saints. After the rapture, there are no righteous left, no, not one.
    But if we interpret them to be figurative, what then is their significance?
    I see them as literal people from the 12 literal tribes of Israel.

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

    Rev 14:2
    And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

    4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
    5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

    The passage says the 144,000 were redeemed from the earth and most interestingly virgins.

    My understanding is:

    1. These people are literal because we are told that they were redeemed from the earth as firstfruits.
    2. They followed the Lamb wherever he went - suggests they are adults and if so, were they celibate out of choice or does God have a hand in their lifestyle?
    3. Verse 5 says no guile was found in their mouth and they were without fault before God - how do we reconcile this with Rom 3:10 "As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one?

    But if we interpret them to be figurative, what then is their significance?
    They are symbolic for the church made up of both men and women. No one is righteous by ourselves but Jesus made us to be righteous being virgins just shows that we are made pure.

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    They are symbolic for the church made up of both men and women. No one is righteous by ourselves but Jesus made us to be righteous being virgins just shows that we are made pure.
    Would you care to clarify why you believe they are merely symbolic?

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    In the Greek, woman is singular. It isn't "women." Imo, it has nothing to do with sex. The "woman" is the whore of Babylon. Adulterers in the Bible are those who worship other gods. Virgins are those who worship the one true God. Hence the parable of the 10 virgins waiting on Jesus to return to go in with Him to the wedding. The 144k are people who never worshiped false gods.
    The emphasis was never about male or female. So you are saying their virginity is not about celibacy but of their righteousness? But the passage emphasised that they "did not defile themselves with women"?

    It is the same way any of us are made clean. By the blood of Christ. Also, Paul quotes from Psalm 14 and in that same text God is with the generation of the righteous. It is an interesting chapter that seems to contradict, but is actually a huge piece of evidence for the rapture of the saints. After the rapture, there are no righteous left, no, not one.
    I would like to understand the reference to "firstfruits". Doesn't it suggest they are the first to go to heaven after Jesus Christ? Isn't this what separates them from the rest of the saints?

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I would like to understand the reference to "firstfruits". Doesn't it suggest they are the first to go to heaven after Jesus Christ? Isn't this what separates them from the rest of the saints?
    The only way you can understand first fruits is to read the rest of the chapter they are the first-fruits of the harvest of the Earth they are first fruits of the house of Israel redeemed among men since they are clearly sealed from the Jewish people. Then comes the Harvest by the Son of man Revelations 14:14-16 followed of course by the grapes of wrath harvest.

    So no they aren't the first to go to Heaven after Jesus, They are separate them from the rest of the harvest of the earth because they meet the lamb on mount Zion.

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    The emphasis was never about male or female. So you are saying their virginity is not about celibacy but of their righteousness? But the passage emphasised that they "did not defile themselves with women"?
    They do not defile themselves with woman, not women. It isn't about righteousness either. Just that they didn't defile themselves with woman. Sex within marriage is not a defilement in any way in the Bible. God said to "go forth and fill the earth with offspring." There are two women in Revelation. One, flies to safety from the beast, and the other is the whore of Babylon.

    I would like to understand the reference to "firstfruits". Doesn't it suggest they are the first to go to heaven after Jesus Christ? Isn't this what separates them from the rest of the saints?
    I don't think the 144k are the first to go to heaven. In fact, they are sealed immediately after the rapture in the 6th seal. They are firstfruits to Jesus on this earth, after the saints are removed. It is my understanding that no one taken in the rapture returns for the Millennium. After going to heaven, who would want to return anyway. God calls it "entering My rest" in Exodus for a reason. It is only in Rev 14, after Jesus has returned to gather the elect, that the 144k "follow the Lamb wherever He goes." This includes following Him to the wedding feast in heaven and returning on white horses, both in Rev 19 before Jesus returns in the third watch to destroy the beast at Armageddon. The rest of us taken in the rapture do no return to this earth.

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    I don't think the 144k are the first to go to heaven. In fact, they are sealed immediately after the rapture in the 6th seal. They are firstfruits to Jesus on this earth, after the saints are removed. It is my understanding that no one taken in the rapture returns for the Millennium. After going to heaven, who would want to return anyway. God calls it "entering My rest" in Exodus for a reason. It is only in Rev 14, after Jesus has returned to gather the elect, that the 144k "follow the Lamb wherever He goes." This includes following Him to the wedding feast in heaven and returning on white horses, both in Rev 19 before Jesus returns in the third watch to destroy the beast at Armageddon. The rest of us taken in the rapture do no return to this earth.
    The only thing i disagree with is that we don't come with Jesus, We are the temple of God on earth during the Millennial Kingdom. IOW we are the stone that comes to earth and fill the whole earth. Made clear here Isaiah 66:1-3 we are Gods place of rest during the Millennial Kingdom, the temple Jesus built for him

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Would you care to clarify why you believe they are merely symbolic?
    Symbolic as the church the 144 000 made up of the 144=12 tribes x the 12 disciples and 1000 meaning many. Just like Jesus hears of the symbolic lamb he turns and sees the symbolic lion John hears of the 144 000 and then sees the great multitude of every tribe tong & nation

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

    Rev 14:2
    And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

    4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
    5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

    The passage says the 144,000 were redeemed from the earth and most interestingly virgins.

    My understanding is:

    1. These people are literal because we are told that they were redeemed from the earth as firstfruits.
    2. They followed the Lamb wherever he went - suggests they are adults and if so, were they celibate out of choice or does God have a hand in their lifestyle?
    3. Verse 5 says no guile was found in their mouth and they were without fault before God - how do we reconcile this with Rom 3:10 "As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one?

    But if we interpret them to be figurative, what then is their significance?
    I think the reference to celibacy is symbolic, understood from the perspective of the "Bride-of-Christ" metaphor. Take a look at this passage from Paul'second letter to the Corinthians.

    2 Corinthians 11:2
    2 For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin.

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    The only way you can understand first fruits is to read the rest of the chapter they are the first-fruits of the harvest of the Earth they are first fruits of the house of Israel redeemed among men since they are clearly sealed from the Jewish people. Then comes the Harvest by the Son of man Revelations 14:14-16 followed of course by the grapes of wrath harvest.

    So no they aren't the first to go to Heaven after Jesus, They are separate them from the rest of the harvest of the earth because they meet the lamb on mount Zion.
    Thank you for explaining the firstfruits, I understand it now.

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
    They do not defile themselves with woman, not women. It isn't about righteousness either. Just that they didn't defile themselves with woman. Sex within marriage is not a defilement in any way in the Bible. God said to "go forth and fill the earth with offspring." There are two women in Revelation. One, flies to safety from the beast, and the other is the whore of Babylon.



    I don't think the 144k are the first to go to heaven. In fact, they are sealed immediately after the rapture in the 6th seal. They are firstfruits to Jesus on this earth, after the saints are removed. It is my understanding that no one taken in the rapture returns for the Millennium. After going to heaven, who would want to return anyway. God calls it "entering My rest" in Exodus for a reason. It is only in Rev 14, after Jesus has returned to gather the elect, that the 144k "follow the Lamb wherever He goes." This includes following Him to the wedding feast in heaven and returning on white horses, both in Rev 19 before Jesus returns in the third watch to destroy the beast at Armageddon. The rest of us taken in the rapture do no return to this earth.
    As Jesuslovesus pointed out, why would the raptured saints remain in heaven while our Messiah is on earth? Doesn't that defeat the Lord's promise that where he is there we will be also (John 14:3) and that we shall reign with him as kings and priests?

    Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Thank you for explaining the firstfruits, I understand it now.
    I hope so this isn't an Oft Analyzed chap, this is why i think its important to ask people if they believe Matthew 24:31 is the rapture then this event here in Revelations 14:14-17 must also be the rapture and quite clearly it isn't

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    I hope so this isn't an Oft Analyzed chap, this is why i think its important to ask people if they believe Matthew 24:31 is the rapture then this event here in Revelations 14:14-17 must also be the rapture and quite clearly it isn't
    You are wrongfully associating Matt 24:31 with Rev 14:14-17-19 as the same.
    The Revelation text shows TWO different reaping of people; the first we are not told where to, the second are reaped to the wrath of the Lord. we don't find this contrast in Matt 24:31. Furthermore, we are told it was the elect that was gathered and it was preceded by a Trump call. Again, we see no Trump call in Rev 14. I've given up trying to figure out why you keep forcing these clearly different passages to be the same.

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    You are wrongfully associating Matt 24:31 with Rev 14:14-17-19 as the same.
    The Revelation text shows TWO different reaping of people; the first we are not told where to, the second are reaped to the wrath of the Lord. we don't find this contrast in Matt 24:31. Furthermore, we are told it was the elect that was gathered and it was preceded by a Trump call. Again, we see no Trump call in Rev 14. I've given up trying to figure out why you keep forcing these clearly different passages to be the same.
    Oh because they quite clearly are the same event, but since you don't believe so please tell us all.

    Whose being harvested in Revelations 14:14, who is the son of man on the cloud and where is he gathering this harvest too? I doubt you can answer any of these questions as a post-trib viewholder most of the time you position just pretends these passages don't exist.

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