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Thread: The 144,000 of Rev 14

  1. #91
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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Now this is something that I have never heard before they do both have the seal of God on there foreheads and the same number 144 000. Even though they are drawn from Jacob wouldn't that still start from the earth?
    We are told specifically that Rev 7 (144k) were drawn from Israel but the same claim in not made in the number in Rev 14.

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    We are told specifically that Rev 7 (144k) were drawn from Israel but the same claim in not made in the number in Rev 14.
    But Israel did come from the earth

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    But Israel did come from the earth
    This is hardly addressing my observation between the two 144,000, isn't it? Both are from the earth, so you remark about Israel being from the earth is rather superfluous.

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    For what it's worth, I agree that Isaiah 59:20 and Obadiah 1:17 are not relevant to the 144,000.
    Your the one who asked this question about the 144k in Rev 14 yet you seem willing to Deny the proof texts that give you the answer

    Isaiah 59:20 specifically tells you whose on mount Zion as Does Obadiah 1:17. As i said you seem to be looking at this passage in Isolation and if you do so you have no chance of understanding it.

    Even Paul reference Isaiah 59:20 when speaking of How Israel will be saved. Romans 11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
    The Deliverer will come from Zion,he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;“and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”

    Isaiah 59:20 is more specific And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
    You have two options then
    1. You can believe that Revelations 14:1-5 doesn't fulfill this prophesy and therefore these people aren't from Jacob.
    2. You can believe that Jesus comes to Mount Zion on a separate occasion and the bible doesn't speak of it.

    Or you can recognize these prophesies are relevant and then you have you answer quite clearly
    Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls.

    As for Obadiah if you understand that Edom is the one in the wine-press the connection should be even more then Obvious

    Obadiah 1 Thus says the Lord God concerning Edom: We have heard a report from the Lord,and a messenger has been sent among the nations:“Rise up! Let us rise against her for battle!”
    9 Will I not on that day, declares the Lord,destroy the wise men out of Edom,and understanding out of Mount Esau?

    15 For the day of the Lord is near upon all the nations.As you have done, it shall be done to you;your deeds shall return on your own head. For as you have drunk on my holy mountain,so all the nations shall drink continually;they shall drink and swallow,and shall be as though they had never been.But in Mount Zion there shall be those who escape,and it shall be holy,and the house of Jacob shall possess their own possessions. The house of Jacob shall be a fire,and the house of Joseph a flame,and the house of Esau stubble;they shall burn them and consume them,and there shall be no survivor for the house of Esau,for the Lord has spoken.
    21 Saviors shall go up to Mount Zion to rule Mount Esau, and the kingdom shall be the Lord

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I don't believe that the 144,000 in Rev 14 are the same as the same number in Rev 7. And the Rev 14 144k as the firstfruits are therefore the first among so many of the church that rises in the first resurrection.

    Matt 13:39 doesn't do justice to your case because it talks about a general harvest which can be best described as the rapture. There is nothing to indicate they are the firstfruits here.


    I don't believe that the 144,000 in Rev 14 are the same as the same number in Rev 7. And the Rev 14 144k as the firstfruits are therefore the first among so many of the church that rises in the first resurrection.
    Do you have any reason to think that the 144,000 in Rev 7 and the 144,000 in Rev 14 are two different groups? If so, I would like to know how a person would come to that conclusion.

    The 144,000 in Rev 7 are sealed during the 6th seal. They are sealed with the seal of God, in their forehead.

    The 144,000 in Rev 14 come with Christ to Mount Zion, with the Father’s name in their forehead. This is at Christ’s return, because they are with Him.

    Rev 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father's name written on their foreheads.


    Matt 13:39 doesn't do justice to your case because it talks about a general harvest which can be best described as the rapture. There is nothing to indicate they are the firstfruits here.
    I quoted Matt 13:39 the harvest, or first resurrection is at the end of the age, on the last day, when Christ returns and sits up His Kingdom, there will be nothing in His Kingdom that offends or practice lawlessness.

    There is nothing here about a rapture, there is nothing about a rapture anywhere in the bible.

    Matt 13:39 "The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.
    Matt 13:40 "Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.
    Matt 13:41 "The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by T W Taylor View Post
    I quoted Matt 13:39 the harvest, or first resurrection is at the end of the age, on the last day, when Christ returns and sits up His Kingdom, there will be nothing in His Kingdom that offends or practice lawlessness.

    There is nothing here about a rapture, there is nothing about a rapture anywhere in the bible.

    Matt 13:39 "The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.
    Matt 13:40 "Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.
    Matt 13:41 "The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,
    I don't know what your talking about plenty in the bible about the rapture, Also this is indeed the end of the age and this is laid out in Revelations 12-14 with but this is not the first resurrection, I repeat this is not the first resurrection all these people are living at the end of this age and these people in this passage don't die.

    Once again Notice in Matt 13:39-41 these people are NOT dead but ALIVE, so why would this be a Resurrection?
    As i mentioned this is the scene played out in Revelations 14:14-19

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Your the one who asked this question about the 144k in Rev 14 yet you seem willing to Deny the proof texts that give you the answer

    Isaiah 59:20 specifically tells you whose on mount Zion as Does Obadiah 1:17. As i said you seem to be looking at this passage in Isolation and if you do so you have no chance of understanding it.

    Even Paul reference Isaiah 59:20 when speaking of How Israel will be saved. Romans 11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
    The Deliverer will come from Zion,he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;“and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”

    Isaiah 59:20 is more specific And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
    You have two options then
    1. You can believe that Revelations 14:1-5 doesn't fulfill this prophesy and therefore these people aren't from Jacob.
    2. You can believe that Jesus comes to Mount Zion on a separate occasion and the bible doesn't speak of it.

    Or you can recognize these prophesies are relevant and then you have you answer quite clearly
    Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls.

    As for Obadiah if you understand that Edom is the one in the wine-press the connection should be even more then Obvious

    Obadiah 1 Thus says the Lord God concerning Edom: We have heard a report from the Lord,and a messenger has been sent among the nations:“Rise up! Let us rise against her for battle!”
    9 Will I not on that day, declares the Lord,destroy the wise men out of Edom,and understanding out of Mount Esau?

    15 For the day of the Lord is near upon all the nations.As you have done, it shall be done to you;your deeds shall return on your own head. For as you have drunk on my holy mountain,so all the nations shall drink continually;they shall drink and swallow,and shall be as though they had never been.But in Mount Zion there shall be those who escape,and it shall be holy,and the house of Jacob shall possess their own possessions. The house of Jacob shall be a fire,and the house of Joseph a flame,and the house of Esau stubble;they shall burn them and consume them,and there shall be no survivor for the house of Esau,for the Lord has spoken.
    21 Saviors shall go up to Mount Zion to rule Mount Esau, and the kingdom shall be the Lord
    My case is very simple and I have not seen anything from you that proves me wrong. We all concur that the 144,000 are the firstfruits of Israel. I read in one of your earlier posts (and I totally agree) that according to the Mosaic covenant, the firstfruits are FIRST harvested and presented to God before the rest. This is confirmed in the 144,000.

    On the contrary, Isaiah 59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord. refers to the GENERAL reconciliation of Israel, the harvest of Rev 14:15-16. As you pointed out, Paul echoed this in Rom 11:26. There is a corroboration between Isaiah 59:20, Rom 11:26, Joel 2:32 and Obadiah 1:17 - all these passages highlight the redemption of Israel as a whole with the proviso that only those who TURN to RIGHTEOUSNESS, who now abhor sin and confess Christ as Lord are saved. IOW, the effect of the coming of Jesus Christ would be to turn Israel from their sins. This general reconciliation will culminate the promised regathering of Israel and thereby fulfil the prophecies by several prophets to this effect.

    The number of Israel redeemed according to the passages above contrasts sharply from the characteristics of the firstfruits. Whereas the rest just turned from their transgressions, the firstfruits, on the other hand, lived in righteously.

    In comparison:

    1. No guile was ever found in their mouth. They never blasphemed or used obscenities.
    2. They are pure, not defiled by women.
    3. Because of their purity and righteousness, they are described as virgins.

    So the passages do not represent the 144,000 but those reaped in Rev 14:15-16. And those reaped unto the wrath of God are the Edomites Rev 14:17-20.

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by T W Taylor View Post
    I quoted Matt 13:39 the harvest, or first resurrection is at the end of the age, on the last day, when Christ returns and sits up His Kingdom, there will be nothing in His Kingdom that offends or practice lawlessness.

    There is nothing here about a rapture, there is nothing about a rapture anywhere in the bible.

    Matt 13:39 "The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.
    Matt 13:40 "Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.
    Matt 13:41 "The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,
    Without repeating what Jesuslovesus has already pointed out, I do hope you accept that Matt 13: 39 has nothing to do with the first resurrection?

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    My case is very simple and I have not seen anything from you that proves me wrong. We all concur that the 144,000 are the firstfruits of Israel. I read in one of your earlier posts (and I totally agree) that according to the Mosaic covenant, the firstfruits are FIRST harvested and presented to God before the rest. This is confirmed in the 144,000.

    On the contrary, Isaiah 59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord. refers to the GENERAL reconciliation of Israel, the harvest of Rev 14:15-16. As you pointed out, Paul echoed this in Rom 11:26. There is a corroboration between Isaiah 59:20, Rom 11:26, Joel 2:32 and Obadiah 1:17 - all these passages highlight the redemption of Israel as a whole with the proviso that only those who TURN to RIGHTEOUSNESS, who now abhor sin and confess Christ as Lord are saved. IOW, the effect of the coming of Jesus Christ would be to turn Israel from their sins. This general reconciliation will culminate the promised regathering of Israel and thereby fulfil the prophecies by several prophets to this effect.

    The number of Israel redeemed according to the passages above contrasts sharply from the characteristics of the firstfruits. Whereas the rest just turned from their transgressions, the firstfruits, on the other hand, lived in righteously.

    In comparison:

    1. No guile was ever found in their mouth. They never blasphemed or used obscenities.
    2. They are pure, not defiled by women.
    3. Because of their purity and righteousness, they are described as virgins.

    So the passages do not represent the 144,000 but those reaped in Rev 14:15-16. And those reaped unto the wrath of God are the Edomites Rev 14:17-20.
    Seems like your starting to get the complete picture i'm glad i could help but there is still more. Seems like your questions is specific to the scene in Revelations 14:1-5
    I want you to understand the scene that actually happens On the Mt.Zion Here are a few more passages that go into that specifically.
    Isaiah 16:1 Send the lamb to the ruler of the land,from Sela, by way of the desert, to the mount of the daughter of Zion.

    I suggest you read the rest of the Chap to long to post it all.
    Notice Here he sends the Lamb to the rulers , thru the Desert. So we can guess that the rulers are on Mount Zion and they're supposed to set a watchmen.
    Heres some more.

    Isaiah 40:3 A voice cries: “In the wilderness prepare the way of the LORD; make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Every valley shall be lifted up,and every mountain and hill be made low;the uneven ground shall become level,and the rough places a plain. And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together,for the mouth of the LORD has spoken.”
    [v.9]Go on up to a high mountain, O Zion, herald of good news;lift up your voice with strength, O Jerusalem, herald of good news;lift it up, fear not; say to the cities of Judah, “Behold your God!” Behold, the Lord GOD comes with might,and his arm rules for him;behold, his reward is with him,and his recompense before him. He will tend his flock like a shepherd; he will gather the lambs in his arms; he will carry them in his bosom,and gently lead those that are with young.

    Notice here again he goes by the Desert to Mount Zion.

    Isaiah 52:5 Now therefore what have I here,” declares the LORD, “seeing that my people are taken away for nothing? Their rulers wail,” declares the LORD, “and continually all the day my name is despised. Therefore my people shall know my name. Therefore in that day they shall know that it is I who speak; here I am.” How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him who brings good news, who publishes peace, who brings good news of happiness, who publishes salvation, who says to Zion, “Your God reigns.The voice of your watchmen—they lift up their voice; together they sing for joy; for eye to eye they see the return of the LORD to Zion. Break forth together into singing, you waste places of Jerusalem,for the LORD has comforted his people; he has redeemed Jerusalem. The LORD has bared his holy arm before the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.

    This my brother is the 144,000 notice what the passage says.
    Depart, depart, go out from there; touch no unclean thing; go out from the midst of her; purify yourselves,you who bear the vessels of the LORD. For you shall not go out in haste, and you shall not go in flight,for the LORD will go before you,and the God of Israel will be your rear guard.


    I think this might be more on par for exactly what your looking for namely.

    1. The meet Jesus on mount Zion.
    2. The sing together songs of Joy.
    3. Eye to Eye the see the return of the LORD(Jesus) to Zion.
    4. They Bear the vessels of the Lord.
    5. The LORD(Jesus) Goes before them aka they follow him wherever he goes

    The rest of the passage is about Jesus
    13.Behold, my servant shall act wisely; he shall be high and lifted up, and shall be exalted. As many were astonished at you— his appearance was so marred, beyond human semblance, and his form beyond that of the children of mankind—so shall he sprinkle many nations.Kings shall shut their mouths because of him,for that which has not been told them they see, and that which they have not heard they understand.

    Nahum 1:15, I also suggest you Read Isaiah 61 anyways i hope this helps your study.

    I just want you to understand this is why i believe Israel is in view from Revelations 12-14. It begins with her going into the wilderness being hid in Jordan from the face of the Beast, then while they are morning and distraught because of the GT (mentioned by Jesus in Matthew 24 and Daniel in chap 11-12) Then Jesus coming to Mount Zion the watchmen 144k actually see him eye to eye and then he appears in the clouds and the Whole world see's him and this is when the tribes of men Mourn. IOW the rapture is not in view in Matt 24 its Jesus gathering his sheep as mentioned in Isaiah 40, He will gather his lambs.

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    I don't know what your talking about plenty in the bible about the rapture, Also this is indeed the end of the age and this is laid out in Revelations 12-14 with but this is not the first resurrection, I repeat this is not the first resurrection all these people are living at the end of this age and these people in this passage don't die.

    Once again Notice in Matt 13:39-41 these people are NOT dead but ALIVE, so why would this be a Resurrection?
    As i mentioned this is the scene played out in Revelations 14:14-19

    Is it that you don’t understand when the first resurrection is?

    The first resurrection is on the last day, the end of the age.

    Perhaps the Word of God don’t fit with a rapture.

    John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

    John 11:24 Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

    1Th 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

    1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

    1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

    There is a group that is always with the Lord, They follow Him wherever He goes, they are the 144,000, the firstfruits, the first resurrection.

    Rev 14:4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.

    1Cor 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

    1Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    Matt 24:3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

    Do you somehow think that when Christ returns everybody will be dead. If everybody is dead, why would Christ need to rule with a rod of iron?

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by T W Taylor View Post
    Is it that you don’t understand when the first resurrection is?

    The first resurrection is on the last day, the end of the age.

    Perhaps the Word of God don’t fit with a rapture.

    John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

    John 11:24 Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

    1Th 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

    1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

    1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

    There is a group that is always with the Lord, They follow Him wherever He goes, they are the 144,000, the firstfruits, the first resurrection.

    Rev 14:4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.

    1Cor 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

    1Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    Matt 24:3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

    Do you somehow think that when Christ returns everybody will be dead. If everybody is dead, why would Christ need to rule with a rod of iron?
    Seems like you listed a bunch of passages and then go ahead to ask me a question still this doesn't really connect with me. Simple fact is Matt 13:39-41 is a Resurrection nor is there any mention of the 144k being killed and resurrected. As for the rest of the passages your quote i don't really understand the point your trying to make care to elaborate? Namely its clear to me we have a different understanding of the last Day and the last trump. You also don't seem to understand what happens at the coming of the Son of Man. Lastly i obviously don't think everybody is dead i think the harvest at the coming of the Jesus is of living ppl not a Resurrection as I stated.

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by T W Taylor View Post
    Is it that you don’t understand when the first resurrection is?

    The first resurrection is on the last day, the end of the age.

    Perhaps the Word of God don’t fit with a rapture.

    John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

    John 11:24 Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

    1Th 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

    1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

    1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

    There is a group that is always with the Lord, They follow Him wherever He goes, they are the 144,000, the firstfruits, the first resurrection.

    Rev 14:4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.

    1Cor 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

    1Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    Matt 24:3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

    Do you somehow think that when Christ returns everybody will be dead. If everybody is dead, why would Christ need to rule with a rod of iron?
    The argument is your denial of scriptures provided to show the harvest of the living. Nobody doubts that it (first resurrection/rapture) will occur on the Last Day.

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    The argument is your denial of scriptures provided to show the harvest of the living. Nobody doubts that it (first resurrection/rapture) will occur on the Last Day.

    Thank you Trivalee, I didn’t understand the argument. Perhaps I can clearly a little.

    We are talking about the 144,000 and the first resurrection. The first resurrection is the resurrection of the firstfruits, which are the 144,000. This resurrection is not just a resurrection of dead people, I think they are mostly dead, but there are some live people.
    These dead of the 144,000 are Servants of God and Prophets, I think all the way back to Abraham, we know Daniel was one, the last verse in Daniel tells Daniel he will rise at the end of days (First resurrection). Paul and other apostles called themselves bondservants (bought slaves) redeemed means bought, paid for.

    1Th 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

    1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

    1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

    1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither does corruption inherit incorruption.

    1Co 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

    1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by T W Taylor View Post
    Thank you Trivalee, I didn’t understand the argument. Perhaps I can clearly a little.

    We are talking about the 144,000 and the first resurrection. The first resurrection is the resurrection of the firstfruits, which are the 144,000. This resurrection is not just a resurrection of dead people, I think they are mostly dead, but there are some live people.
    These dead of the 144,000 are Servants of God and Prophets, I think all the way back to Abraham, we know Daniel was one, the last verse in Daniel tells Daniel he will rise at the end of days (First resurrection). Paul and other apostles called themselves bondservants (bought slaves) redeemed means bought, paid for.

    1Th 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

    1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

    1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

    1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither does corruption inherit incorruption.

    1Co 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

    1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    Yea man this is the point i think your missing the Harvest of the Earth is not a Resurrection. You don't Resurrect the harvest you sow it, it grows and then you harvest it. You really seem to be mixing the rapture, the first Resurrection, and the harvest of the earth all into one event. It makes your post seem like gibberish no offence because your grouping and quoting these events as if they are the same.

  15. #105
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    Re: The 144,000 of Rev 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Yea man this is the point i think your missing the Harvest of the Earth is not a Resurrection. You don't Resurrect the harvest you sow it, it grows and then you harvest it. You really seem to be mixing the rapture, the first Resurrection, and the harvest of the earth all into one event. It makes your post seem like gibberish no offence because your grouping and quoting these events as if they are the same.



    Sorry my post seem like gibberish, I wish I would have paid more attention when I was in school and learned better writing skills.

    point i think your missing the Harvest of the Earth is not a Resurrection.
    Perhaps, If they are not the same maybe you can show me some scriptures about the Harvest, I have groped around and quoted plenty about the first resurrection.

    I am not mixing anything about a rapture, because I don’t believe there is any, and that is the best belief to have, because if you are correct and believe all Christians will be raptured, I will be raptured away, kicking and screaming because I don’t want to go and leave my loved ones, when they need me the most. I would rather stay and help others. But if I am correct, and there is no rapture, those who are not prepared, and don’t know what to do will die a bad death, perhaps starvation, or worse.

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