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Thread: The benefits of teaching the pre-trib rapture.

  1. #76

    Re: The benefits of teaching the pre-trib rapture.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Neither does 1 Thes 5 fit into your idea of the Day of the Lord, which includes both a Dark portion and a Light portion. The Dark portion obviously is intended to include in the Day of the Lord a preliminary period of Antichristian Tribulation. That happens because you assume the Rapture of the Church and a "secret" Coming of Christ must actually *begin* the Day of the Lord! But the Day of the Lord in this sense does not refer to the Reign of Antichrist, which is not, at any rate, a time of judgment. The Reign of Antichrist *precedes* the Day of Christ's Wrath, which takes place at his 2nd Coming! People will be saying "Peace and safety" *before* the Day of Christ. They will not be saying it *during* the Day of Christ. They will be saying it immediately before Christ's judgment falls at Armageddon. They will take cover under the protection of Antichrist, or under the protection of wicked leaders, and not think that Christ's Coming is at the door and ready to bring final judgment!
    Idk what exactly you mean 1 Thes 5 it quite clearly tells you that the Day of the Lord has a dark portion before the coming of Christ. Like i said its seems you do not have any understanding of the Day of the Lord but i promise Just for you i with the help my of brothers will make you understand it. People don't say peace and saftey and then Christs Coming overtakes them as a thief and they don't escape. The bible clearly says the DOTL shall overtake them as a thief, you seem unwilling to do a personal study on the day of the Lord.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    The "birth pangs" of the Olivet Discourse refer to the 1st Jewish War, where the Jewish Diaspora in the NT age began (although it had begun earlier during the captivities). The "birth pangs" do *not,* in my system, refer to the time of Christ's return. The seals of Revelation may likewise refer to the historical *beginnings* of these tribulations, which marked Israel for suffering, and brought persecution upon the Church, because the Romans began this age-long period of suffering for both Israel and the Church. You tie things nicely together, but do they really belong together? And, is your theology right? I don't think so! Sorry!
    Idk why you keep doing this, it seems you can only argue someone else view against yours instead of seeing whether or not there theology is correct based on the bible. Your whole argument is literally lets see how your view compares to mine and because i look at things differently i'm right and your wrong. If his argument is wrong prove it thru the rubric of the bible not how it compares to how you personally understand things!

  2. #77

    Re: The benefits of teaching the pre-trib rapture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    If his argument is wrong prove it thru the rubric of the bible not how it compares to how you personally understand things!
    Hey, I like that!

    [well said]

  3. #78
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    Re: The benefits of teaching the pre-trib rapture.

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    Speaking of descriptions, Luke actually records a description of this period in his gospel.

    Luke 21:23-24
    23 Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.


    Luke records that the GT can be summarized according to the following

    • great distress upon the land
    • wrath to this people
    • fall by the edge of the sword
    • led captive into all nations
    • Jerusalem trampled under foot by the Gentiles.


    There is no longer great distress upon the land, wrath to this people, war in Israel, and neither are the people in exile. What Luke describes as the GT is no longer present. The GT is over. The city of Jerusalem is no longer being trampled by the Gentiles, though it still remains a cup of reeling or a stone so heavy such that if anyone would try to lift it, they would injure their back. (Zechariah 12)
    If the above is true, what do we call the end-time catastrophe that is to come?

  4. #79
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    Re: The benefits of teaching the pre-trib rapture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    If the above is true, what do we call the end-time catastrophe that is to come?
    I don't know. The trumpet judgments are a call for Israel to repent, and the vial judgments are judgment against the beast. I don't know what to call it.

  5. #80

    Re: The benefits of teaching the pre-trib rapture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Idk what exactly you mean 1 Thes 5 it quite clearly tells you that the Day of the Lord has a dark portion before the coming of Christ. Like i said its seems you do not have any understanding of the Day of the Lord but i promise Just for you i with the help my of brothers will make you understand it. People don't say peace and saftey and then Christs Coming overtakes them as a thief and they don't escape. The bible clearly says the DOTL shall overtake them as a thief, you seem unwilling to do a personal study on the day of the Lord.
    You're wrong--I've done studies on the Day of the Lord. As I recall, the Day of the Lord has a generic application which can be applied to either a major act of salvation or to a major act of judgment. It does *not* have to have an eschatological application! So when you read "the Day of the Lord" you need to be careful to consider the context. The Lord has shown up in history many times to bring judgments upon nations. And He has also shown up on behalf of Israel to save her, as I'm sure He has done for Christian countries. These are all a "Day of the Lord."

    But the Day of the Lord is also applied in eschatology. Paul does so in 1 Thes 5, in which he applies it to the actual Coming of the Lord, which he addressed earlier in ch. 4. So the Day of the Lord there does *not* include the time that precedes Christ's Coming. Rather, people are to prepare *before* Christ comes. If they do not prepare they will be taken by surprise at the Coming of the Lord, assuming they are still living at that time. Not only so, but Paul says that spiritually ignorant people will actually be declaring a time of world peace when the world is really engaged in antiChristian behavior. They will be taken by surprise at Christ's Coming.

    So in this context Paul is applying the Day of the Lord to Christ's actual Coming, and not to the time prior, when men are supposed to be spiritually preparing in a "Dark time."

    1 Thes 5.5 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus
    Idk why you keep doing this, it seems you can only argue someone else view against yours instead of seeing whether or not there theology is correct based on the bible. Your whole argument is literally lets see how your view compares to mine and because i look at things differently i'm right and your wrong. If his argument is wrong prove it thru the rubric of the bible not how it compares to how you personally understand things!
    You have no choice but to put *your own position* up against somebody else's position in order to *compare them!* This contrast enables one to better judge between the two positions. I see nothing wrong with that approach.

  6. #81

    Re: The benefits of teaching the pre-trib rapture.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    You're wrong--I've done studies on the Day of the Lord. As I recall, the Day of the Lord has a generic application which can be applied to either a major act of salvation or to a major act of judgment. It does *not* have to have an eschatological application! So when you read "the Day of the Lord" you need to be careful to consider the context. The Lord has shown up in history many times to bring judgments upon nations. And He has also shown up on behalf of Israel to save her, as I'm sure He has done for Christian countries. These are all a "Day of the Lord."
    This is false.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    But the Day of the Lord is also applied in eschatology. Paul does so in 1 Thes 5, in which he applies it to the actual Coming of the Lord, which he addressed earlier in ch. 4. So the Day of the Lord there does *not* include the time that precedes Christ's Coming. Rather, people are to prepare *before* Christ comes. If they do not prepare they will be taken by surprise at the Coming of the Lord, assuming they are still living at that time. Not only so, but Paul says that spiritually ignorant people will actually be declaring a time of world peace when the world is really engaged in antiChristian behavior. They will be taken by surprise at Christ's Coming

    So in this context Paul is applying the Day of the Lord to Christ's actual Coming, and not to the time prior, when men are supposed to be spiritually preparing in a "Dark time."

    1 Thes 5.5 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape..
    It doesn't say here Christs coming it says Day of the Lord.



    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    You have no choice but to put *your own position* up against somebody else's position in order to *compare them!* This contrast enables one to better judge between the two positions. I see nothing wrong with that approach.
    This is false these aren't called PositionsForums or OpinionsFormus Its Bibleforums we compare people positions, opinions and theology to the word of the Bible. Your literally told him here that your theology is wrong because you don't think so. This isn't even a comparison its just a straight attack based on your personal bias.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    You tie things nicely together, but do they really belong together? And, is your theology right? I don't think so! Sorry!

  7. #82
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    Re: The benefits of teaching the pre-trib rapture.

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    I don't know. The trumpet judgments are a call for Israel to repent, and the vial judgments are judgment against the beast. I don't know what to call it.
    That's because the GT is yet to come.

  8. #83

    Re: The benefits of teaching the pre-trib rapture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    This is false.
    No, it's true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus
    It doesn't say here Christs coming it says Day of the Lord.
    Clearly, he is talking about Christ's coming.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus
    This is false these aren't called PositionsForums or OpinionsFormus Its Bibleforums we compare people positions, opinions and theology to the word of the Bible. Your literally told him here that your theology is wrong because you don't think so. This isn't even a comparison its just a straight attack based on your personal bias.
    It's entirely reasonable to compare positions with respect to how we *interpret the Bible.* There is no thought whatsoever on my part to formulate a position apart from the Bible! If you simply quote a passage, and offer no commentary with respect to your own thoughts you will fall into all kinds of errors. The Scriptures need to be studied, and not just quoted! I was in a Christian cult many years ago--for only a short time, until I saw through their deceptions. This cult practiced "pray reading" the Bible. They practiced reciting the Bible without any study, and prayed the words at face value. But the Scriptures can be distorted by a false spirit or by poor exegesis.

    Your answers above left much to be desired, so I will elaborate the same way you did--with little explanation.

  9. #84

    Re: The benefits of teaching the pre-trib rapture.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    No, it's true.
    Clearly, he is talking about Christ's coming.
    It's entirely reasonable to compare positions with respect to how we *interpret the Bible.* There is no thought whatsoever on my part to formulate a position apart from the Bible! If you simply quote a passage, and offer no commentary with respect to your own thoughts you will fall into all kinds of errors. The Scriptures need to be studied, and not just quoted! I was in a Christian cult many years ago--for only a short time, until I saw through their deceptions. This cult practiced "pray reading" the Bible. They practiced reciting the Bible without any study, and prayed the words at face value. But the Scriptures can be distorted by a false spirit or by poor exegesis.
    Correct that's my point your not comparing his interpretation with the bible you comparing his interpretation with how you personally interpret the bible. As for what Paul was talking about its cearly mentioned the topic is the Day of the Lord.


    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Your answers above left much to be desired, so I will elaborate the same way you did--with little explanation.
    I literally started a DoTL Forum just for you if you wish to prove your claims here
    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I've done studies on the Day of the Lord. As I recall, the Day of the Lord has a generic application which can be applied to either a major act of salvation or to a major act of judgment. It does *not* have to have an eschatological application! So when you read "the Day of the Lord" you need to be careful to consider the context. The Lord has shown up in history many times to bring judgments upon nations. And He has also shown up on behalf of Israel to save her, as I'm sure He has done for Christian countries. These are all a "Day of the Lord."
    Please go ahead an do so i just kept it short here by saying false.

  10. #85

    Re: The benefits of teaching the pre-trib rapture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    This is false.
    You do not specify what in particular is false? Are you saying the Day of the Lord does not refer in Scriptures to major judgments in history and to major acts of salvation in history?

    Here is a prophecy applied to historic Babylon and refers to divine judgment against Babylon at that time:

    Isa 13.6 Wail, for the day of the Lord is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty... 9 See, the day of the Lord is coming—a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger—to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it.

    Lam 2.22 In the day of the Lord’s anger no one escaped or survived; those I cared for and reared my enemy has destroyed.

    See also Eze 7;13;30--these were historical judgments, against Israel and against Egypt. Egypt was judged by Nebuchadnezzar! They are all called the Day of the Lord.

    Both Joel and Amos refer to the Day of the Lord in terms of a false expectation that it will be a blessing, when it will actually be a judgment. And while it is apparent that virtually all of the references to the Day of the Lord concern judgment against the Lord's enemies, there is in context a strong implication that this "coming" of the Lord will be for the purpose of *delivering God's people.* It will result in the *restoration* of God's people. You are so wrong about my studies on this. I studied it a lot.

    Acts 2.20 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. 21 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus
    It doesn't say here Christs coming it says Day of the Lord.
    What doesn't say "Christ's coming?" Are you talking about 1 Thes 5? For the whole context you need to move back one chapter to ch. 4!

    1 Thes 4.16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Ch. 5.1 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

    Clearly, Paul is referring to Christ's coming, and identifies that with the Day of the Lord which, as I've shown, has to do with bringing judgment against unbelievers or against the spiritually negligent. Though it is judgment for those who remain unspiritual it is salvation for those of us who prove to remain spiritual. In other words, the Day of the Lord *is* the Coming of Christ, and means salvation for the Church and judgment for the unrighteous *at the same time!* It is not so much those who die in the Tribulation, but the fate of those who after Armageddon are selected for *eternal judgment* at Christ's coming.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus
    This is false these aren't called PositionsForums or OpinionsFormus Its Bibleforums we compare people positions, opinions and theology to the word of the Bible. Your literally told him here that your theology is wrong because you don't think so. This isn't even a comparison its just a straight attack based on your personal bias.
    Your opinion.... [sigh]
    Last edited by randyk; Jan 13th 2017 at 02:14 AM.

  11. #86

    Re: The benefits of teaching the pre-trib rapture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    Correct that's my point your not comparing his interpretation with the bible you comparing his interpretation with how you personally interpret the bible. As for what Paul was talking about its cearly mentioned the topic is the Day of the Lord.

    I literally started a DoTL Forum just for you if you wish to prove your claims here

    Please go ahead an do so i just kept it short here by saying false.
    I'll try to take a look. Keep refreshing my responses, though because I tend to post 1st and edit afterwards.

  12. #87

    Re: The benefits of teaching the pre-trib rapture.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    You do not specific what in particular is false? Are you saying the Day of the Lord does not refer in Scriptures to major judgments in history and to major acts of salvation in history?

    Here is a prophecy applied to historic Babylon and refers to divine judgment against Babylon at that time:

    Isa 13.6 Wail, for the day of the Lord is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty... 9 See, the day of the Lord is coming—a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger—to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it.

    Lam 2.22 In the day of the Lord’s anger no one escaped or survived; those I cared for and reared my enemy has destroyed.

    See also Eze 7;13;30--these were historical judgments, against Israel and against Egypt. Egypt was judged by Nebuchadnezzar! They are all called the Day of the Lord.

    Both Joel and Amos refer to the Day of the Lord in terms of a false expectation that it will be a blessing, when it will actually be a judgment. And while it is apparent that virtually all of the references to the Day of the Lord concern judgment against the Lord's enemies, there is in context a strong implication that this "coming" of the Lord will be for the purpose of *delivering God's people.* It will result in the *restoration* of God's people. You are so wrong about my studies on this. I studied it a lot.

    Acts 2.20 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. 21 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
    Yea like i said none of these support the claim that you made to i will just say its false if you want me to explain why i could do so but on most points it's false so i just called the whole thing false but if you want me to go point by point i will

    1. The Day of the Lord has a generic application which can be applied to either a major act of salvation or to a major act of judgment. This is false
    2.The Lord has shown up in history many times to bring judgments upon nations. This is true
    3. And He has also shown up on behalf of Israel to save her. This is true
    4. As I'm sure He has done for Christian countries. This is impossible to prove and therefore false
    5. These are all a "Day of the Lord." False

    Conclusion: These are all a "Day of the Lord." False

    Also i'm not sure what i'm reading in Eze 7,13,30 awesome i see it Eze 30 identify this as the Day of the this is indeed a historical fulfillment of judgments called the Day of the Lord. Well done you want to post this on the DoTL forum for me?

  13. #88

    Re: The benefits of teaching the pre-trib rapture.

    The thing about it is, though, that the word for "destruction" here in 1 Thessalonians 5:3 means "ruination [G3639]" (as opposed to the one meaning, "totally cut off/severed")... it's more like the picture of a rotting apple, than the word for "destroyed [G622] them all" (Lk17:27,29, that second word/meaning ^ ) which occurs at His 2nd Coming to the earth.

    At this "ARRIVING of the Day of the Lord [the time period]" the "they shall not escape ['ekpheugó']"... in contrast to the ones (in the same time period) who will "watch, and pray always, [IN ORDER] THAT ye may have strength to FLEE OUT OF/escape ['ekpheugó']" each and every thing that will come to pass DURING that time period... So, the "they" won't be doing this, but the "ye" who heed His word (during that future time period) WILL... In either case, it is describing THE TIME PERIOD (of much duration; rather than a singular 24-hr day).

    "AS labor PANG [singular] come on a woman" and we all grasp that the end game does not occur at the moment that first PANG "ARRIVES" (many more follow that one... [Matt24:4-8/ Rev6 Seals])

  14. #89
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    Re: The benefits of teaching the pre-trib rapture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    That's because the GT is yet to come.
    I don't understand how this follows. Just because I can't give a name to what is coming?

  15. #90
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    Re: The benefits of teaching the pre-trib rapture.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    You're wrong--I've done studies on the Day of the Lord. As I recall, the Day of the Lord has a generic application which can be applied to either a major act of salvation or to a major act of judgment. It does *not* have to have an eschatological application!
    I've looked into this and I have not yet found a passage, which speaks about the Day of the Lord, that doesn't refer to the age when Jesus returns to establish righteousness on the earth.

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