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Thread: The foreknowledge of God

  1. #1
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    The foreknowledge of God

    The foreknowledge of God, how does it work?

    When Jesus predicts the demolition of the temple, fulfilled in AD 70, then:

    #1. Did God orchestrated the Jewish revolt with as logical result the Romans interfered?

    #2. Did God foresaw (without any interference) how history would unfold and therefore Jesus could make His prediction?

    #3. Your pick...

    ----------

    As for a second example, Judas. We are told Jesus foreknew Judas would betray Him, then:

    #1. It's impossible God had any hand in that;

    #2. The logical conclusion seems that God foresaw (without any interference) how history would unfold and God communicated that with Jesus.

    #3. Your pick...

    -----------

    The reason I am starting this thread is to get more insight in the issue of predestination.

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    Re: The foreknowledge of God

    #2, with the possibility - well, really, actuality - of divine participation, or else fatalism.

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    Re: The foreknowledge of God

    Quote Originally Posted by ProDeo View Post
    The foreknowledge of God, how does it work?

    When Jesus predicts the demolition of the temple, fulfilled in AD 70, then:

    #1. Did God orchestrated the Jewish revolt with as logical result the Romans interfered?

    #2. Did God foresaw (without any interference) how history would unfold and therefore Jesus could make His prediction?

    #3. Your pick...

    ----------
    Nothing happens without interference. In this question we don't really have to guess. Daniel tells us directly.

    Daniel 9:26-27 LXX And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one shall be destroyed, and there is no judgment in HIM: and HE shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with the prince that is coming: they shall be cut off with a flood, and to the end of the war which is rapidly completed HE shall appoint the city to desolations and one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be lifted up: and on the temple shall be the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation.

    Jesus is the anointed one who was destroyed. HE destroyed the city and temple with a coming prince. HE appointed the city and temple mount to desolations. On the temple mount would be the abomination of desolations until the end of time. As stated, abominations have been on the temple mount ever since. First the temple of Jupiter, then the muslim dome. All is the work of God, not man. Not by chance, but by His will.

    As for a second example, Judas. We are told Jesus foreknew Judas would betray Him, then:

    #1. It's impossible God had any hand in that;

    #2. The logical conclusion seems that God foresaw (without any interference) how history would unfold and God communicated that with Jesus.

    #3. Your pick...

    -----------

    The reason I am starting this thread is to get more insight in the issue of predestination.
    The book of life was written before the foundation of the world. God knew then all about Judas. Judas was chosen to fulfill scripture, Psalm 41:9.

    John 13:18 “I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.’

    John 13:27 Now after the piece of bread, Satan entered him. Then Jesus said to him, “What you do, do quickly.”

    None of this was by accident. God is always in control and always working. Even if we cannot see it.

    John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”

  4. #4

    Re: The foreknowledge of God

    Imo, God foreknows the appointed times and boundaries of nations.

    God probably knows who will be saved and not, for their names will be written in the book of life (Rev 20:15)/lambs book of life (Rev 21:27), imo - based on those who decide to seek, reach out for him, find him, and live in Gods ways, those who decide to be saved (through Christ Jesus of Nazareth).


    Acts 17 New International Version (NIV)
    24
    “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else.

    26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands.

    27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.


    Quote Originally Posted by ProDeo View Post
    The foreknowledge of God, how does it work?

    When Jesus predicts the demolition of the temple, fulfilled in AD 70, then:

    #1. Did God orchestrated the Jewish revolt with as logical result the Romans interfered?

    #2. Did God foresaw (without any interference) how history would unfold and therefore Jesus could make His prediction?

    #3. Your pick...

    ----------

    As for a second example, Judas. We are told Jesus foreknew Judas would betray Him, then:

    #1. It's impossible God had any hand in that;

    #2. The logical conclusion seems that God foresaw (without any interference) how history would unfold and God communicated that with Jesus.

    #3. Your pick...

    -----------

    The reason I am starting this thread is to get more insight in the issue of predestination.

  5. #5

    Re: The foreknowledge of God

    ProDeo

    The foreknowledge of God, how does it work?
    It is primarily used in scripture for the persons....not the events...God knows the persons
    The reason I am starting this thread is to get more insight in the issue of predestination.
    predestination is used for the work of God is sanctifying believers to be conformed to the image of His Son.
    Last edited by Iconoclast85; Feb 7th 2017 at 09:12 PM.

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    Re: The foreknowledge of God

    I don't think the temporal human can begin to comprehend eternity, which is God's vantage point.

    The term "Foreknowledge" relates to man's limited perspective and understanding.

    But there is no past, present or future for infinite God, who sees all things as now.

    In light of this, foreknowledge cannot be merely the ability to "know" things by virtue of pre-witnessing them.

    I don't simply know who my siblings are, but I know them in a filial, intimate sense.

    (Still trying to post from a smartphone)


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    Re: The foreknowledge of God

    Let's start at the beginning ... did God "orchestrate" Adam eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil by putting the tree of the knowledge of good and evil into the garden ... He did know they would eat from it I think we all agree with that. Why did God put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil into the garden in the first place? God doesn't do anything for no good reason ...

    Romans 11:32-35 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

    Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
    ***
    Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
    For You are the God of my salvation;
    On You I wait all the day.

    Psalms 25:5
    ***

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    Re: The foreknowledge of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Iconoclast85 View Post
    ProDeo

    It is primarily used in scripture for the persons....not the events...God knows the persons

    predestination is used for the work of god is sanctifying believers to be conformed to the image of His Son.
    How often is foreknowledge used in Scripture to apply to persons, that isn't also applied to events relevant to those persons?

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    Re: The foreknowledge of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Christinme View Post
    Let's start at the beginning ... did God "orchestrate" Adam eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil by putting the tree of the knowledge of good and evil into the garden ... He did know they would eat from it I think we all agree with that. Why did God put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil into the garden in the first place? God doesn't do anything for no good reason ...

    Romans 11:32-35 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

    Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
    A point needing to be made then. Knowing that Adam would eat is not meaning... God orchestrated Adam's eating of from the tree. Foreknowledge is not due to God orchestrating events and then saying... "I know" Adam would eat of the tree.

    God even ORDERED Adam not to eat of the tree. Hardly an orchestration "to" eat from the tree.
    Slug1--out

    ~"It is one thing to speak God's name in a message but another to speak of God's standards in a message. The name of God is not removed from many a message today but the standards of God... ARE removed."~

    ~"Psalm 106:23 Therefore He said that He would destroy them, Had not Moses His chosen one stood before Him in the breach, To turn away His wrath, lest He destroy them."...
    So don't say that God never meant to destroy the Hebrews, to do so, makes God a liar.~



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    Re: The foreknowledge of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    A point needing to be made then. Knowing that Adam would eat is not meaning... God orchestrated Adam's eating of from the tree. Foreknowledge is not due to God orchestrating events and then saying... "I know" Adam would eat of the tree.

    God even ORDERED Adam not to eat of the tree. Hardly an orchestration "to" eat from the tree.
    I've always wondered: along a Calvinist view of Romans 9, is Adam a vessel of wrath, such that God's glory might be made known to all through the incarnation, resurrection, etc.?

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    Re: The foreknowledge of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    God even ORDERED Adam not to eat of the tree. Hardly an orchestration "to" eat from the tree.
    The following comes to mind ...

    Romans7:7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.” But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead. I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

    Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.
    ***
    Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
    For You are the God of my salvation;
    On You I wait all the day.

    Psalms 25:5
    ***

  12. #12

    Re: The foreknowledge of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Athanasius View Post
    How often is foreknowledge used in Scripture to apply to persons, that isn't also applied to events relevant to those persons?
    Define election based on foreseen faith would be election by mere foreknowledge that is to say prescience. The biblical usage much must determine the exact significance of the term. What is the Biblical teaching concerning the foreknowledge of God? For knowledge is not synonymous with omniscience. It is concerned, not with contingency but with certainty acts 2:23 acts 15 18 Romans 8:29 to 30, and that's implies a knowledge of what has been rented certain. Acts 2:23 would make for knowledge depended upon God's determinate Council by the grammatical construction which combines both together as one thought with foreknowledge referring to and enforcing the previous term. Foreknowledge is related to the Old Testament term to know implying an intimate knowledge of a relation to its object compare Genesis 4:1 Amos 3:2 to the passages in the New Testament Romans 8:29 11 :2- 1st Peter 1: 2 all speak of persons who are for known employee much more than mere prescience or omniscient, a relationship that is absolutely certain, personal and intimate. The only example of things being for known is clearly based on Divine determination Acts15 :18

    Because Divine election or for ordination to eternal life is grounded in the immutable character of God, it is infallible. Where it based upon foreseen Faith, mere prescience, or human ability, it would remain fallible and mutable. Because of the of its infallible and immutable character, Divine election or for a nation to eternal life is the source of the greatest Comfort, encouragement and perseverance to the believer. This is exactly the way in which and the reason why this truth is revealed in Scripture! Note especially the great and glorious statement of the Apostle and Romans 8 28 - 39 under inspiration, he puts this truth in the context of the present promise verse 28 the Eternal Redemptive purpose vs 29 - 34 the very worst that believe it's can experience first 35 230 6 the Redemptive Covenant Love of the Lord Jesus Christ in verse 37 any infallibility of the Covenant of Grace verse 38 to 39. God has ordained the preaching of the Gospel as the means to bring the elective faith in Christ in time and experience Romans 10:14 215 and verse 17, first Thessalonians 1 for the 10 and first Thessalonians 2 verse 13 He has ordained the means as well as the end. To glory and the end without fulfilling the means would be inconsistent and sinful by disobedience. This is taken from A Baptist Catechism with Commentary by WR Downing.pg125.

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    Re: The foreknowledge of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Athanasius View Post
    I've always wondered: along a Calvinist view of Romans 9, is Adam a vessel of wrath, such that God's glory might be made known to all through the incarnation, resurrection, etc.?
    Although I'm not a Calvinist ... I do think that the first Adam represents the old man, the vessel of wrath I wrote something about this in another thread we are in the other day ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Christinme View Post
    Romans 9 really highlighted this pattern to me. We have the first Adam, the First Covenant, the physical man (physical birth/the old man), the vessels of wrath then we have the second Adam, the Second Covenant, the spiritual man (born again/new man), the vessels of honor.
    I have wrote more on this over the years in this forum concerning this ... we our old man is the vessel of wrath (prepared for destruction) and then we become the new man the vessel of mercy (prepared for glory) ... and God bore with great patience our "old man" to make known the riches of His glory to our "new man".

    I don't see that Calvinism in general sees it as such because well first I think they would say the first Adam is a vessel of mercy/honor ... Calvinism doesn't see that a person who was a vessel of wrath that that same person can become a vessel of honor ... they seem to see it as to have to be two separate peoples, that there are some people created to be vessels of wrath and other people created to be vessels of honor.
    ***
    Lead me in Your truth and teach me,
    For You are the God of my salvation;
    On You I wait all the day.

    Psalms 25:5
    ***

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    Re: The foreknowledge of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Iconoclast85 View Post
    Define election based on foreseen faith would be election by mere foreknowledge that is to say prescience. The biblical usage much must determine the exact significance of the term. What is the Biblical teaching concerning the foreknowledge of God? For knowledge is not synonymous with omniscience. It is concerned, not with contingency but with certainty acts 2:23 acts 15 18 Romans 8:29 to 30, and that's implies a knowledge of what has been rented certain. Acts 2:23 would make for knowledge depended upon God's determinate Council by the grammatical construction which combines both together as one thought with foreknowledge referring to and enforcing the previous term. Foreknowledge is related to the Old Testament term to know implying an intimate knowledge of a relation to its object compare Genesis 4:1 Amos 3:2 to the passages in the New Testament Romans 8:29 11 :2- 1st Peter 1: 2 all speak of persons who are for known employee much more than mere prescience or omniscient, a relationship that is absolutely certain, personal and intimate. The only example of things being for known is clearly based on Divine determination Acts15 :18

    Because Divine election or for ordination to eternal life is grounded in the immutable character of God, it is infallible. Where it based upon foreseen Faith, mere prescience, or human ability, it would remain fallible and mutable. Because of the of its infallible and immutable character, Divine election or for a nation to eternal life is the source of the greatest Comfort, encouragement and perseverance to the believer. This is exactly the way in which and the reason why this truth is revealed in Scripture! Note especially the great and glorious statement of the Apostle and Romans 8 28 - 39 under inspiration, he puts this truth in the context of the present promise verse 28 the Eternal Redemptive purpose vs 29 - 34 the very worst that believe it's can experience first 35 230 6 the Redemptive Covenant Love of the Lord Jesus Christ in verse 37 any infallibility of the Covenant of Grace verse 38 to 39. God has ordained the preaching of the Gospel as the means to bring the elective faith in Christ in time and experience Romans 10:14 215 and verse 17, first Thessalonians 1 for the 10 and first Thessalonians 2 verse 13 He has ordained the means as well as the end. To glory and the end without fulfilling the means would be inconsistent and sinful by disobedience. This is taken from A Baptist Catechism with Commentary by WR Downing.pg125.
    I don't understand what this has to do with my question? I'm asking how foreknowledge can be primarily about persons, not events, when persons are bound up in the events of their lives? That is, God doesn't foreknow us in a vacuum; to know a person is to know the circumstances of that persons life, how those circumstances have shaped that person, and will shape that person, and so on.

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    Re: The foreknowledge of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Christinme View Post
    Although I'm not a Calvinist ... I do think that the first Adam represents the old man, the vessel of wrath I wrote something about this in another thread we are in the other day ...

    I have wrote more on this over the years in this forum concerning this ... we our old man is the vessel of wrath (prepared for destruction) and then we become the new man the vessel of mercy (prepared for glory) ... and God bore with great patience our "old man" to make known the riches of His glory to our "new man".

    I don't see that Calvinism in general sees it as such because well first I think they would say the first Adam is a vessel of mercy/honor ... Calvinism doesn't see that a person who was a vessel of wrath that that same person can become a vessel of honor ... they seem to see it as to have to be two separate peoples, that there are some people created to be vessels of wrath and other people created to be vessels of honor.
    That would suggest that the vessel is functional, and as such, his eternal state isn't necessarily indicated one way or another. If we think of Pharaoh, for example, Exodus 1.8-10 tells us:

    8 Then a new king, to whom Joseph meant nothing, came to power in Egypt.
    9 “Look,” he said to his people, “the Israelites have become far too numerous for us.
    10 Come, we must deal shrewdly with them or they will become even more numerous and, if war breaks out, will join our enemies, fight against us and leave the country.”

    Followed in Exodus 3.19-20:

    19 But I know that the king of Egypt will not let you go unless a mighty hand compels him.
    20 So I will stretch out my hand and strike the Egyptians with all the wonders that I will perform among them. After that, he will let you go.

    And last, Exodus 9.15-17

    15 For by now I could have stretched out my hand and struck you and your people with a plague that would have wiped you off the earth.
    16 But I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.
    17 You still set yourself against my people and will not let them go.

    If we contrast this with Exodus 9.11-13;20-21, does it make sense to read Paul as indicating what's been suggested recently, in various threads?

    11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand:
    12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”
    13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
    ...
    20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”
    21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

    It seems Pharaoh quite clearly determined his own course back in Exodus 3, and God interacts with him as if he were exercising his own agency in Exodus 9, so it's not at all to me that Paul, insofar as his discourse concerning vessels goes, is establishing something soteriologically significant. If Pharaoh is like Adam, then function need not betray one's eternal destination.

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