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Thread: The foreknowledge of God

  1. #976

    Re: The foreknowledge of God

    (1 John 2:16 KJV) For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.


    We see in the Genesis account, Adam and Eve both sinned. The serpent deceived Eve by putting a thought into her mind.

    (Gen 3:1 KJV) Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

    (Gen 3:2 KJV) And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

    (Gen 3:3 KJV) But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

    (Gen 3:4 KJV) And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

    (Gen 3:5 KJV) For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.


    The lust of the eye - seeing the fruit that was forbidden and desiring of it. The pride of life, desiring to make one wise (becoming like God, knowing Good and Evil. The lust of the flesh - eating from the fruit that was forbidden.

    In the mind sin was conceived. For Adam and Eve knew they were not to eat the fruit from the tree in the middle of the garden. In the lust of the eye - seeing and desiring after the fruit. For they knew if they ate they would be like Gods (Pride), knowing good and evil. Eating of the fruit - the physical act which lead to disobedience and believing the word of the serpent over the word [command] of God (Lust of the flesh).


    (Gen 3:6 KJV) And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

    ::

    (Rom 5:14 KJV) Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

    Similitude G3667. homoioma, hom-oy'-o-mah; from G3666; a form; abstr. resemblance:--made like to, likeness, shape, similitude.

    Man's sin is a similitude of Adam's transgressions. Adam being the first man, who is a figure of him that was to come (Christ Jesus - the second Adam - the Redeemer). The first man is of the earth, the second man is the Lord from Heaven.

    (1 Cor 15:47 KJV) The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

    (1 Cor 15:48 KJV) As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

    (1 Cor 15:49 KJV) And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

    ::


    (Gal 5:16 KJV) This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

    (Gal 5:17 KJV) For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

    (Gal 5:18 KJV) But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

    (Gal 5:19 KJV) Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

    (Gal 5:20 KJV) Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

    (Gal 5:21 KJV) Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

    (Gal 5:22 KJV) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

    (Gal 5:23 KJV) Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

    (Gal 5:24 KJV) And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

    (Gal 5:25 KJV) If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

    ::

    (Eph 2:3 KJV) Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

    (Eph 2:4 KJV) But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

    (Eph 2:5 KJV) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

    ::

    (Gal 6:8 KJV) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.



    Quote Originally Posted by Eyelog View Post
    The sin nature, sarx, or the flesh is the condition of natural man, i.e., the old man/self/anthropos after the Fall, with the ever increasing influence of sin upon it.

    Adam had flesh, but not a corrupted nature. He could sin through a perverted interest in the things of the flesh which Satan funneled A&E into contemplating. But once that was done, God withdrew the intimate fellowship and direct provision for mankind, and so man began to make due by His own devices.

  2. #977

    Re: The foreknowledge of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    So God did not create man very good, but with a sin nature?
    I don't think that's what he's saying, and consider: Adam had the capacity for disobedience, but was still considered 'very good' at the end of Genesis 1.

  3. #978
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    Re: The foreknowledge of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Athanasius View Post
    I don't think that's what he's saying, and consider: Adam had the capacity for disobedience, but was still considered 'very good' at the end of Genesis 1.
    The announcement that creation was "very good" isn't a moral assessment. It speaks to the suitability of creation relative to it's purpose.

  4. #979
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    Re: The foreknowledge of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    So God did not create man very good, but with a sin nature?
    Man doesn't have a "sin nature" as such. I take note of the description found in James.

    James 1:14-16
    14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death. 16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.

    Lust, not sin, is an aspect of our nature. Lust is what we own for ourselves but we have a choice whether or not to be carried away by our lust. The question, as James says, is whether we will allow ourselves to be deceived. Fantasy is the enemy of faith. When it comes to our lust, what we imagine to be true, IS true for us.

    Take care.

  5. #980

    Re: The foreknowledge of God

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    The announcement that creation was "very good" isn't a moral assessment. It speaks to the suitability of creation relative to it's purpose.
    Exactly what I was thinking.

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    Re: The foreknowledge of God

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Athanasius View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    So God did not create man very good, but with a sin nature?
    I don't think that's what he's saying, and consider: Adam had the capacity for disobedience, but was still considered 'very good' at the end of Genesis 1.
    The announcement that creation was "very good" isn't a moral assessment. It speaks to the suitability of creation relative to it's purpose.
    The purpose why God created us is a fascinating subject, it was my first post here and many questions spring from that, such as, would A&E have been obedient without the temptation and why did God allow the temptation.

  7. #982
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    Re: The foreknowledge of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    So God did not create man very good, but with a sin nature?
    Tell me what happened Kalahari...Adam sinned...right ? Point being that he was obviously created with free will and a choice to partake of the fruit with Eve... If he didn't have the ability to sin, he wouldn't have.

    And on a deeper note... If Adam was "good".. Why did he sin ?. Forget the sin that came into the world through him.. those of us after the fall, that is. But what about HIM... If he was unable to sin due to lack of free will, then you have to say God Himself ordained Adam to sin. These are the holes in Total depravity , or original sin doctrine.

    And before you say that Adam had free will before the fall, then how could he be "good" ?

  8. #983
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    Re: The foreknowledge of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    Tell me what happened Kalahari...Adam sinned...right ? Point being that he was obviously created with free will and a choice to partake of the fruit with Eve... If he didn't have the ability to sin, he wouldn't have.

    And on a deeper note... If Adam was "good".. How did he sin. Forget the sin that came into the world through him.. those of us after the fall, that is. But what about HIM... If he was unable to sin due to lack of free will, then you have to say God Himself ordained Adam to sin. These are the holes in Total depravity , or original sin doctrine.
    I agree with where sin come from according to James. This was what led me to my comment.

    This is clear as a bell... Now... We know that through Adam sin entered the world. But, each man is responsible for his own sin. Our sin nature is born into us, as I believe was born into Adam. It's called free will. ALL HAVE SINNED BECAUSE NOW THAT SIN IS IN THE WORLD , MAN WILL INNEVITABLY CHOOSE TO SIN, BECAUSE IT'S IN OUR NATURE. We are not as GOD... we will never be and have never been able to not sin. to not be perfect. This was the second Adam's purpose. He could only do this because HE IS GOD IN THE FLESH. . Anything less than accepting we are responsible for our own sin conflicts with James 1 / 15 ( and other verses as well).
    I know and believe that man could only sin because he had a free will, without it sinning was not possible. Where we now differ from Adam I believe is that where Adam was always inclined to do good, he had to be deceived to do bad, we are inclined to do only bad and we need the working of the Spirit to do good. Most things men do which is "good" are still done with a motive to improve or help oneself. It is only when we have the love of God that we can love our neighbour without ulterior motives.

    So before the fall man's inclination was to do only good and after the fall it was to do only bad. This so changed us that Scripture correctly said that we were sinful while we were still in our mother's womb. That is total depravity for me. Each and every human need Christ to be saved, there are none who are not depraved and who do not need a Saviour. If I understand many of you here, you believe that some do not need a saviour for they have not sinned. That to me is foreign to Scripture.

  9. #984

    Re: The foreknowledge of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    Where we now differ from Adam I believe is that where Adam was always inclined to do good, he had to be deceived...
    Adam wasn't deceived, Eve was. Adam was just plain stupid:

    Genesis 3.12 - 13
    12 The man said, “The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit from the tree, and I ate.”
    13 Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this that you have done?” The woman said, “The serpent tricked me, and I ate.”

    1 Timothy 2:14
    14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

  10. #985

    Re: The foreknowledge of God

    ^^^



    Adam did not know the difference between good and bad; how could be inclined to only do good before the Fall?

    Adam was amoral prior to his sin.
    Some people are offended that the Sovereign God, because He loved man so much and wanted to be in an intimate relationship with his creation, gave Man a free will to respond to God's grace, offered to all. They are offended that God is God as God chooses to be, not as they choose for God to be.

  11. #986
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    Re: The foreknowledge of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Stew Ward's Hip View Post
    ^^^



    Adam did not know the difference between good and bad; how could be inclined to only do good before the Fall?

    Adam was amoral prior to his sin.
    Because he was made by God who is good.

    Yes, Eve was deceived and Adam was ...

    I guess Adam ate, because she was one flesh with him and he did not want to be alone again. Whatever the reason was, the deception of Eve by Satan led to their fall and all of mankind changed.

  12. #987
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    Re: The foreknowledge of God

    Quote Originally Posted by Stew Ward's Hip View Post
    ^^^



    Adam did not know the difference between good and bad; how could be inclined to only do good before the Fall?

    Adam was amoral prior to his sin.
    So are you saying Adam didn't know it was bad to eat the fruit of the tree?
    In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity. - unknown

    Read your Bible and pray every single day. - Pastor Jon Courson

  13. #988
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    Re: The foreknowledge of God

    Quote Originally Posted by CadyandZoe View Post
    Man doesn't have a "sin nature" as such. I take note of the description found in James.

    James 1:14-16
    14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death. 16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.

    Lust, not sin, is an aspect of our nature. Lust is what we own for ourselves but we have a choice whether or not to be carried away by our lust. The question, as James says, is whether we will allow ourselves to be deceived. Fantasy is the enemy of faith. When it comes to our lust, what we imagine to be true, IS true for us.

    Take care.
    Yes.. But man will eventually give in to lust. It's inevitable.

  14. #989

    Re: The foreknowledge of God

    Quote Originally Posted by TrustGzus View Post
    So are you saying Adam didn't know it was bad to eat the fruit of the tree?
    Adam knew God told him not to do so. At that point, I don't believe that Adam knew it was bad in a morality sense. All he had ever known was God and doing what God said. I don't think he had anything with which to make a comparison for "bad," which is why I used the word "amoral."

    For whatever reason, he chose to do the opposite of what God told him to do.
    Some people are offended that the Sovereign God, because He loved man so much and wanted to be in an intimate relationship with his creation, gave Man a free will to respond to God's grace, offered to all. They are offended that God is God as God chooses to be, not as they choose for God to be.

  15. #990
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    Re: The foreknowledge of God

    Perhaps actually Adam and Havah (Eve) were PERFECT(ly) MORAL. (BEFORE, not after, they sinned).

    Animals often take care of people, or of other helpless animals, as if they even are MORAL.

    VS the common thought like this excerpt from an unrighteous page of the internet:
    ".... .... and more important, nature is amoral. Nature knows nothing of good and evil. In nature there is one rule—survival of the fittest. There is no right, only might. If a creature is weak, kill it. Only human beings could have moral rules such as, "If it is weak, protect it." Only human beings can feel themselves ethically obligated to strangers.

    i.e. on PBS OETA the last year in particular (and in the past, long forgotten along with hundreds of thousands of other things) ...
    they showed how animals from dolphins, to bears, not just domestic pets,
    made obvious effort to help, protect, and/or comfort an endangered, threatened, sick or weak person OR totally different animal.

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